Pricing suede mats

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Bob Carter

Bob Carter

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
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We review pricing fairly often and have never been happy with the matrix on POS for mat pricing. Small sizes seem illogical, while largest sizes do, too

But, it got me thinking

Does anyone use the Jim Miller approach (on pricing Mus Glass) for Fabric/Suede Boards?

I'm not trying to create a hornet's nest, just really curious
 
please brief us on Jim's MG pricing...
 
Bob, I presume you mean to take a lower margin on fabric boards in order to sell more of them and therefore increase the bottom line when all is said and done.

I don't do that. Fabric boards and hand wrapped fabric mats sell themselves because of the vast difference they make in the quality of the finished product.

The intensity of color and textures that you can present with fabric mats is so dramatically better than traditional paper covered mats that, where appropriate to the design, they present such a WOW factor that it's a "no brainer" of a sale.

I always show fabric first unless the design doesn't call for it. After seeing fabric the customer salivates for it and doesn't often step down to regular matting.

About a third of the top mats I sell are some form of fabric. Undermats I rarely sell as fabric because the amount showing is so little that I myself have a hard time justifying the cost.

Interestingly enough, when a fabric mat is sold it is also much easier to sell Museum Glass because the texture of the fabric looks so much better with the superior glazing.
 
Bob,
No we don't adjust our margins. Though I did want to comment on your POS issue. I to have a hard time being happy with the UI pricing of matting. You either have to skew the small size or the large size to make the majority of prices make sense. If you make the large size appropriately priced then you get screwed on the low side price and don't make any money when you have to buy a whole sheet for an 8x10. If you cover your 8x10 then your large size is outrageously priced.
 
I sell a ton (probably nowhere near as much as most people that sell a ton of MG) of suede for exactly the reasons that Dave indicated; they tend to sell themselves

But my question was if it's a good idea for MG, should it work for suede

Since I have taken my MG prices back to a fuller margin, i don't think so. But, i wonder if anyone else does

It's not about glass, but pricing in general

And, is anybody happy with the matrix on mat pricing. Especially on premium products?
 
I'm happy with the pricing on the larger sizes - I think it is fair for the customer, and profitable for me. So in order not to "mess with" the pricing, I have a "speciality cut" charge that I use for smaller mats when the cost of the board far outweighs what the small mat would be.

Not only does that take care of the board cost, but knowing that I have this huge piece of this "premium" board in stock and paid for, I'm apt to try to find a place to use it again!
 
My participation in this thread feels a little like I'm telling Jeff Gordon how to steer. Anyway I can't see how any pricing would work without using, cost, markup, and addon (I also include waste but I don't think its a must).

With those three I am able to price so that small, medium, and large pieces are priced logically. With a hypothetical markup of two and an addon of $23 (the cost of the board) an 8x10 would be in the range of $26ish. Sure its not big money but you didn't lose money either. A 23x40 would cost in the range of $69ish.

I'm sure you can see how I'm able to tweak these markup/addon to effect either the large sized boards (markup) or the small boards (addon) almost independently. I have never seen any other system as logical and simple and effective as that using cost-markup-addon (and waste).
 
I do what Betty said. I think a real easy way to solve this would be to have a minimum board charge for Crescent, Bainbridge, Artique, etc. depending on what the cost of the board.

For specialty mats (suede, linen, etc) do the same thing. I use Lifesaver and it allows you to set a markup for mats in dollar increments.

So why not have an option to set a minimum charge according to the cost of the board.

Until that happens, I just pay close attention when placing orders and compensate for the smaller sizes with a special add-on charge.

Also, LS already allows you to price glass according to size, so why not do something similar with mat board?
 
Hey Meci-I use LS and my pea-brain has figured out how to price everything but mats the way I wish

Can you walk me through how you do it?

For example, can you tell me how to price let say an 11x14 and I want the paper to be $7.00, Rag to be $14.00 and Suede to be $35.00?

That would be great

Much appreciated
 
Well, that's the problem Bob. You can't price according to size. In the mat pricing, though, on the default mark-up chart, you can mark-up according to the cost of the board. But this still doesn't help the problem of the smaller sizes being way too low and the larger sizes being way too high.

On glass you can now price by Sq ft, UI, or size of the lite. I just wonder why not on matboard?


(I know my posts are about as clear as muddy water.)
 
My markup is based on the cost of the board - higher % for the lesser cost boards, somewhat lesser % for the higher priced boards. But, I don't know how that works - I only told the folks at EZ Framer what I wanted and they programmed it in for me.
 
I do markup on boards based on cost as well. Anything over 12x16 and I make up for the cost of the whole board. Thus far, this is working well. An 8x10 suede is just over $16. I wouldn't imagine that an average shop would have such volumes of small pieces with suede that it would become a consistent loosing proposition.
 
My POS uses a UI look up table that skews higher per UI in smaller sizes down to a minimum price at 18 UI. It gives me a modest profit on 18 UI and quickly works up to a good margin on larger mats. Whenever one dimension triggers a 40x60 board it automatically adds a 1.5 mutiplier. I have to admit that mat cost is rarely the most significant issue in most of my framing but this pricing works for me.
 
I'm at $ 20.77 for a Bainbridge 8X10 Suede.
 
My price for 8x10 Bainbridge is 23.22 I always make sure I cover the cost of my fabric mats with the first purchase - in that light, I make less on the 8x10 but the rest is pure profit. I sell a lot of suede and fabric mats and I always have a good idea of what I have in stock and try to utilize it when I can so it doesn't sit. I design for the art, but always have it in mind as to what's in the inventory bins.

I've never been completely happy with the pricing modules on software, but Lifesaver gives me the best flexibility in setting the prices so that they are not completely skewed.

my 2 cents

Elaine
 
I use FrameReady so I don't know if this will apply. In FrameReady you can set a "Set" price as well as a "Mark-Up". In these fields you can use formulas. I use a Set price of "cost" which is the cost of the full sheet of board and a Mark-Up of 3.75 which is applied to the amount of board used. So if you have a board with a $10 cost and you sell a 16x20 out of it the pricing would be $10+($2.50x3.75) = $19.38 with $2.50 being the cost of the actual amount of board being used.

This system works for me and keeps the small and large jobs fairly priced IMHO.
 
See-That's the problem with POs pricing on mats and nothing else

Look at those goofy price points

19.38
20.77
23.22

when they should be

20.00
21.00
24.00
 
True Bob, maybe we all can request a round-up option. Even though you we are only talking about pennies. Those pennies like to join forces and become dollars quickly.
 
Bob:

A $19.38 quote sounds MUCH better (psychologically) to many people than Twenty Dollars.....;)

That's why the good ole Penny will never disappear from our currency ("Hurry, get a brand new car for less than $2000 ($1999,99) Sale ends soon, etc."

Many times when I quote a price, say, $298, somebody will say, "yes, let's go for it, I didn't want to go over $300".... As if the $2 will bust their budget or make their kids forgo the skip trip to Aspen!!!

It's a price point in their minds and I am happy LifeSaver does not round up automatically.
 
It makes cents...

Bob Carter said:
See-That's the problem with POs pricing on mats and nothing else.
Look at those goofy price points
19.38
20.77
23.22
when they should be:
20.00
21.00
24.00
Click to expand...

I totally agree with Bob, here. All those cents are "busy", and disturbing..... Keep it simple! I'm still not POS (yet), and my predacessor's price list had everything down to, for example.. $23.19 for a mat....I changed the price list to round up to even dollars. Until I go POS, it's easier for me, and easier to comprehend for my customers...psychological? You betcha! Even just for me? Okay! We rarely haggle individual components. Bottom line? Don't goof with pennies.....it's the sales tax that puts it to the odd dollars, at 7.125% here...but easier to figure.

I am learning sooo much from Bob Carter...even if he doesn't think I am....:D
 
I agree with Paul.

I'll often round down a price to keep it from hitting some benchmark figure when I give a quote.

If it comes to $ 301.73 ...I'll make it $ 298.74 or some such.

If it is over a certain amount people will start whittling down and go with CC instead of MG. So I give up 1% of the total sale but keep the design intact and the customer generally responds positively.

I also usually quote without including the 6% Michigan sales tax. Never had a complaint when they pick up and that $ 298.74 figure becomes $ 316.66. If I quoted the $ 316.66 figure w/tax it also sends it up to be shot down.

There is a psychology to pricing strategies and it should be part of any sales training program.
 
Psychology in pricing...

There is a lot of psychology in pricing. I would prefer it if my prices rounded to 23.99. There is never resistance from a customers' standpoint if you are at 23.50 and then you move it to 23.99. That .49 does not break the sale or make the customer waffle and I get to put the extra in my pocket. How many people do you know that round down instead of up??? I round up, my husband rounds down. $299 to him is $200! I would like more customers like him!!

I have found this to be very true even on lower priced items that I sell in my other store. Prices may come in at 9.50 but we price it at 9.99 for a bottle of hot sauce. I can't count how many customers will state "great, I didn't want to spend over $10" I could probably mark all of my sauces at 9.99 and sell them quicker - even the ones that are at 6.99

I have learned a lot by listening to my customers and watching their expressions as they receive the pricing.

I always quote my prices before tax - we are at 8% in upstate NY

my 2 cent psychology analysis!

Elaine
 
There is very little evidence if any that the rounding up or down of prices has any effect in retiling……..though it is a widely held belief that it does………

I believe it fall into the area of “urban legend” when it comes to retailing, it has been banged around for so long that most retailers now believe it to be fact…

BTW Bob……….some of the products I sell these days and have sold in the past are sold by “area” and the same issues you have brought up prevail ………with no real answers………I have spent a good few hours with a very smart mentor trying to work out a solution that makes practical sense without any great success to date…
 
Dermot. said:
There is very little evidence if any that the rounding up or down of prices has any effect in retiling……..though it is a widely held belief that it does………

I believe it fall into the area of “urban legend” when it comes to retailing, it has been banged around for so long that most retailers now believe it to be fact…

...
Click to expand...

From practical experience and subjective analysis of my own buying psychology I respectfully disagree with you, Dermot.

In addition I also subscribe to the $ 2.95 may as well be $ 2.98 or $ 2.99 and will not influence a buying decision. It will only positively effect the bottom line of a retailer.
 
I really don't like it when retailers at the cash register quote me a price before tax. It seems more like a trick, especially when they don's use the words "before tax". When customer asks for the price, they want the bottom line, period, tax, title and license. As a customer I don't think I'm alone on this issue. Of course, clerks on the sales floor are a different matter.
 
Jo, I understand your misgivings so I usually add the phrase "+ tax" when I quote.

If the amount with tax falls below what I perceive to be a psychological benchmark price I'll quote saying "$ 298.74 with tax including everything except the wall and a hammer to hang the picture".

I don't feel that the amount of state mandated tax should necessarily be included in my quote if it will kill a sale. Isn't it enough that I have the "privilege" of being a tax collector for the state.

Do you object to the fact that a price sticker on an item in a retail store doesn't include the sales price with tax included???
 
I agree with Bob on the round numbers.

I have tried everything I can to make my POS present rounded numbers to no avail. I use FrameReady 5.6

With FrameReady, they have a button on the work order page that you can 'lock price'. I use it daily. If the quote is 301 or 302.54 I usually round down to 298 or so and 'lock' it at the even dollar. At the same time, I may round 287.53 to 295 and 'lock'.

I'm thankful for that feature.

I price my matboard exactly the way FrameMakers Dave does. Fixed cost + markup

I simplified my markup table using multiples of 5.

up to $5 = 5 + (3.75 x cost) = retail
up to $10 = 10 + (3.75 x cost) = retail
etc
etc
 
I don't have a sliding scale for mattes, though I do have a minimum at 20 UI.

I also keep the amount at least a penny under the dollar - sounds cheaper.

There has to be a survey that can prove that $199 is perceived as considerably less than $200 and that $399 is perceived as affordable as $385! I'll do some digging when I have time. If any one else can find something it would benefit us all.
 
Bob Carter said:
See-That's the problem with POs pricing on mats and nothing else

Look at those goofy price points

19.38
20.77
23.22

when they should be

20.00
21.00
24.00
Click to expand...


Oh thats easy Bob. Good software, like Framesmart, has had that option as long as I have had it. I just go to Menu-setup-main settings and set the "rounding" to xx.00.


My prices are exactly $29.00, $69.00, $89.00 for 8x10 - 24x36 - 32x40. Rounding like that is an absolute must for anybody doing any type of pricing charts.

I don't know that I have ever said this so bluntly but I really believe that the US is at a disadvantage every single day that Framesmart doesn't sell here. There isn't any visulization software close to what Framesmart is doing and there really isn't a pricing software even competitve with Framesmart when it comes to flexibility, ease of use, and yes price. This is just one more example. I'm so fortunate that I got in on Framesmart befure they decided to back out of this market.


Perhaps your's can already round numbers and the howto is buried somewhere in the 200+ thread about "tips and tricks". If not I'm sure it can be put into the software and is in their weekly update will be in version 4.20.09.076.
 
Bob,
For me, this thread is really timely. I struggle with this same issue and am glad to see even the "big guys" have pricing conundrums sometimes. I am using frameready and have spent hours trying to come up with an equitable solution, and at least this thread has given me some good ideas.

So, do you mind me asking what is your solution to this big mat, small mat problem? In general, what method do you use to price out boards (UI, SQI, etc).

Oh, as to the original question, I had not thought to do this with mats (I don't tend to have much price resistance on those...maybe I'm too low!), but I think I am going to try Jim's MG pricing.

Thanks,
Leslie
 
From my discussions with them I gather it wasn't an easy decision. Mostly it boiled down to customer service. Not having an "office" here or somebody to man phones, they couldn't provide the type of customer service they believe has made them so popular in Australia.

I can respect that but honestly it hasn't bothered me. I've never waited more than 6 hours for a response even with a 12 hour time difference.

Their lineup now includes Flo, Visualize It, and Framesmart. I'm amazed they are able to keep all that going with the small staff they have.
 
Would they really need an office here Jay?

Most of the tech support phone numbers you call go outside of our country anyway.

At least we could communicate with people from Oz.

Microsoft's tech support is in India now and they don't speak English very well.

I really like the looks of their visualization software on their website. Does the menu really float above the image the way it looks on the site?
 
I've had that argument with them. I've even offered to help! I think they are afraid of it getting out of hand and losing control. I know I have bitten off more than I can chew a few times. I think that's what they're trying to avoid.
 
So... how about we get one of our fellow Aussie framers to buy the program for us and then mail it to us. There would suddenly be 100 new frame shops in the same town in Australia but... it could happen!!
 
Okay, for the argumentatively-challenged, let me add this alternative

Instaed of goofy price points like 19.38, 20.77 and 23.22, I have no problem with 19.99, 20.99, and 23.99

Dermot, years ago, maybe not valid today, there were studies reflecting psychology of price points. XX.99 and XX.00 were widely used fro regular pricing while xx.95 and xx.49 were not as "friendly" and XX.88 was always used as a promotional price. It had just stuck with me

Now, as the affect: 100 mats at 19.38 or $20.00 (or 19.99). You do the math

Hey, Leslie, don't have an answer; that's why it bugs me so. Paul and I have spent many a discussions over this point. Bottom line: Not many folks think it's a problem and the cost to correct greatly exceeds the benefit. When we first became LS clients, I asked for a more expansive and detailed workorder form. they were great and did it. It's the only way to effectively track CoG. The new version was dubbed BCWO modification and while I have told many about this new and improved (year old now) version, hardly any have changed

In essence, we get what we settle for
 
Bob ………I understand and would think like that myself and have used the odd pricing method….but I got an ear roasting one time when I tried to validate it………

I found this which may interest some of you……..the theory on odd price selling and it’s origins is amusing….

There is more here…. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_pricing

Historical origins

Exactly how psychological pricing came into common use is not clear, though it is known that the practice arose during the late 19th century. One source speculates that it originated in a newspaper pricing competition. Melville E. Stone founded the Chicago Daily News in 1875, intending to price it at one cent to compete with the nickel papers of the day. The story claims that pennies were not common currency at the time, and so Stone colluded with advertisers to set whole dollar prices a cent lower — thus guaranteeing that customers would receive ample pennies in change.

Others have suggested that fractional pricing was first adopted as a control on employee theft. For cash transactions with a round price, there is a chance that a dishonest cashier will pocket the bill rather than record the sale. For cash transactions with an odd price, the cashier must make change for the customer. This generally means opening the cash register which creates a record of the sale in the register and reduces the risk of the cashier stealing from the store owner.

A third theory is that the practice arose during that period as an attempt by merchants to appear to be significantly underselling the competition while in fact lowering prices by only a small margin.
 
Dermot. said:
There is very little evidence if any that the rounding up or down of prices has any effect in retiling……..though it is a widely held belief that it does………
Click to expand...

That's why every gas station in the world sells their gas for $2.99.9. They oil companies took it to its highest level by splitting the penny. I know that if a gas station next to one selling gas for $3.00 was selling gas for $2.99.9 I would most likely go to the one selling it for $2.99.9 even though it would only save me a little more than a penny to do so.
 
I always quote before tax. In Alameda county the tax is now 8.75%

We try to keep our price list at even numbers. Easier to add, but the last time I raised them I used Excel and automatically raised 5% so everything went uneven. Changed some by hand.

We use rounded down to the penny--2.99, 29.99, etc. when we have items for sale with posted prices like the poster special (Thanks Bob.) but art on the walls have even prices. I don't want to cheapen them with bargain-look prices.

Reading all of your problems with mat pricing on POS makes me cringe!
 
Kirstie said:
Reading all of your problems with mat pricing on POS makes me cringe!
Click to expand...

Yea I know. Perhaps you can glean from threads like this who is having the most problems and has the most confusion about how their software prices mats. I think your wise in even caring. There are many that don't have the slightest clue what formula their software used to spit out a price. What's worse is they don't even seem to care.

This could be research for you. It does seem that many of the programs have complicated something so simple to an unbelievable level. Even still, I don't know of any one person (yet) that has given a computerized system an honest try and reverted back.
 
Dave said:
Do you object to the fact that a price sticker on an item in a retail store doesn't include the sales price with tax included???
Click to expand...

No, I don't. However if the clerk is at the cash register/POS terminal and we are talking price, it is easy to quote the price including tax.

It would be a boring world if we all wanted exactly the same things, right?
 
It always takes longer to give a quote with tax. When we did it by hand, it was just foolish. Even with computers, I have to go do a different invoice screen to give a quote with tax. However on the pricing screen I can hand over pre-tax prices very quickly.
 
I once gave a lady a quote. She paid a deposit and came back to pick it up. When I told her the balance, she pitched a fit! This is $37 more than what you told me it would be!" I told her the quote was before tax. She said "You should've told me the entire amount, this is more than what I wanted to spend!"

She paid it anyway. From then on, I've taken the extra 5 seconds to figure tax for the total Total. It was awkward. No biggy.
 
Val said:
I once gave a lady a quote. She paid a deposit and came back to pick it up. When I told her the balance, she pitched a fit! This is $37 more than what you told me it would be!" I told her the quote was before tax. She said "You should've told me the entire amount, this is more than what I wanted to spend!"

She paid it anyway. From then on, I've taken the extra 5 seconds to figure tax for the total Total. It was awkward. No biggy.
Click to expand...

When you starting using your new POS, you'll be pleased that it gives all of that to them up front on their initial (deposit) sales slip. (total, tax, deposit left, balance due, due date, etc) It also gives the pre and post tax amounts on the pricing/ticket screen, before you finalize/save/print.

If you have any questions and need help, email me. Glad to help!

Mike

PS: As far as having flat or rounded dollar amounts for mat price calculations, I'm not sure what value that would have - since those are not usually itemized for the customer. They are grouped together with other components, such as moulding, fitting, stretching, glazing, labor, extras. Only the grand total is displayed on their slip.
 
Hey Mike-It isn't so much what the customer actually sees (they only get the Receipt Copy), it's what I see

Every other component like glass, mounting, stretcting, fitting all are assigned prices based on the parameters I choose.

It's only mats that I lack that control

I'm pretty convinced if I were able to set those prices logically, I would make more money. If not, I could raise the ones I wanted to to accomplish that goal

Whatever mechanic allows me to establish individual by size pricing on all the glass, etc my pea brain wants to know why it can't be employeed on mats
 
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