pricing glass by the sq ft???

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Mike LeCompte CPF

MGF, Master Grumble Framer
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Jul 20, 2005
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Knoxville TN
The recent Lifesaver updates have the option of pricing glass by the square foot or united inch.

Anyone doing this? And if so, how do you compute it? Not asking for your actual markups, just how do you go about figuring all that out?
 
I asked for sq inches (obviously ft work too) from my POS. I don't understand your question.

You buy glass wholesale essentially by the sq ft. A 32 x 40 lite is 1280 sq inches or 8.89 sq ft. take your cost and divide by 8.89 and you have your cost per sq ft. ... mark it up as you see fit.

This is the way retail glass companies sell glass (sq inches actually), at least around here. I understand some framers desire to price in steps based upon their stocked lite sizes, but I think that is isn't worth the effort.

Take the sq inch cost * markup factor and round up to the nearest dollar... bill 'em danno.
 
I think in the next update they are going to call it "The Right Way" and "The Stupid Way".
 
Cliff: sorry I wasn't clear. I mean is anyone pricing by sq in, sq ft or whatever? Seems to me you're losing money.

Guy comes in with a project calling for a 29 x 30 lite. How you going to price it? I'd do it based on the next largest size lite, certainly not 22 x 28; but if you're pricing by sq in or sq ft, you're going to get a lite priced at a lesser amount than the next size above 22 x 28.

Hope that's more clear. I also would think you're leaving money on the table pricing in any other way than by the whole lite
 
Originally posted by Jay H:
I think in the next update they are going to call it "The Right Way" and "The Stupid Way".
Click to expand...
So Jay, I'm not trying to be a smart A$$ but in your opinion what is the "right way" and the "stupid way"?

We are converting over from Specialty Soft to LifeSaver and pulling our hair out because they don't calculate things the same. Making the conversion extremely frustrating. I stock almost everysize of CC and Regular and am thinking that pricing by the lite makes the most since as once the lite is cut you throw out the 3" scrap and your done. My cost is the same if 3" is cut off or the whole sheet used, consumption is full lite either way.

And to complicate matters more the premium stuff like AR and Musuem don't come in as many sizes to begin with. If I have to order a box of glass and then cut a sheet to get a needed size I think I need to charge for the full lite. What do you all think and do?
 
Glass is the only square item we typically buy in varying sizes. So its not exactly the same although we typically only stock 1-3 sizes. The smallest I stock is 24x36. I don’t think its fare at all to charge for that lite when you cut an 11x14.

Lite #1 = 20x50 = 70 UI
Lite #2 = 30x40 = 70 UI


Lite #1 = 20x50= 6.94 sq/ft x $ 4.00 sq/ft = $27.76
Lite #2 = 30x40 = 8.30 sq/ft x $4.00 sq/ft = $33.20

That is a difference of about $5.44/ea. Times 5000 lites a year is a difference of $27,200. Plus lite 1 would need to be oversized but that’s a different topic.

If UI is used for other components like mats, and backing also then the problems is extended to other components of the frame.

So if you ask me there is only one way to price square items. Does this epiphany from LSS apply to the glass only or all square components?

I think that the best way to price items takes into account price, markup, WASTE, and an add on. I’m sure there are plenty of other ways to price items but I just think this is the best.

I also used to stock many sizes of glass. I found after I started to stock only two sizes I actually wastes less!
 
Jay-My favorite example is to price 3 lites

13x40
13x41
24x30

Then figure your actual cost on each based on what lite it comes out of

Now,for a real eye opener do it with Museum Glass
 
Jay

Your idea of stocking only two sizes is intriquing. You list the 24 x 36 but what is the other size?

Interested to know what others think and do regarding sizes to carry in stock. I stock close to every size, but Jay's way sounds interesting. Evidently you have crunched numbers and this works best, right?
 
I would just like to warn folks to check the glass prices in their Lifesaver program and make sure that the prices are their own. The last 2 updates we ran somehow deleted my prices and replaced them with some mystery default prices. The only way I knew was when pricing a ticket with a piece of glass around 40 x 60 and the "default" prices only went to 40 x 50. I have spoken with tech support and they don't know why it would have done this - apparently I am the only person this has happened to?
 
Crunch numbers on glass waste? I wouldn't know where to begin. I guess you would weigh waste at the end of a period vs. what you started with as waste.

I stock 32x40 also. I think that leaves less waste. I'm sure there is sceintific ways we could narrow down exactly who wastes less glass but I'm doubtful there is much of a difference.

Stocking that much glass takes up alot of room and is some serious over head. So the question I ask myself is what do I stand to gain by tying up money in a 20x24 and a 22x28 case of glass.

Also consider that many shops stock several different types of glass. That just amplifies the problem. I couldn't imagine!
 
Stocking only a couple of sizes is fine if you have a place and a way to keep the leftover pieces in good shape and unscratched.

If you're disciplined enough to either cut the piece to a standard size or put the leftover in a proper place with a paper between, then this may work for you. However, for most of us, we cut the size we need, then just stick the leftover piece back in the box or in the shelf, and when we need it, it is scratched or just 1/2" too small.

In the beginning, I only stocked a couple as well, but found the time to size, or hunt the correct size and then make sure it was in good shape cost me far more than stocking several sizes.

Now, that's not to say I stock every size, I don't, but for me anyway, this saves not only time, but money as well.

Plus, I found my scrap box filled much slower...
 
Philosophically I believe that pricing glass by the closest lite size and stocking every available size is the most fair and best for your customer and you.

However, I, like most framers don't have the room to inventory every available glass and every available size. In the old days when I had room to spare I did just that. Now I am in 1200 square ft and it just doesn't make since. So I am stuck with buying 32x40 and 40x60 boxes only and have dropped the number of offerings to 4 instead of TruVue's entire line and add DenGlass.

I am still pricing by UI until I can find a better way. It matters not if you are using sq/in, sq/ft, or UI they will all calculate out the same.

I did add to my pricing structure for 40x60 stock. If you go over 32x40 in any way, you pay for the entire 40x60 sheet.

That is how I got over Bob's hurdle of pricing 13x40 vs. 13x41
 
I stock regular glass in 4 sizes, 18x24,26x32,32x40,36x48. NG in 1 size 32x40. ConCl in 3 sizes 18x24, 26x32, & 32x40. everything else I order as I need for specific orders. Overtime of course you build up some inventory on these items and can live off that for a while. Just work harder to sell it once you have it. With this formula I have what I beleive to be minimal waste on glass and a very reasonable inventory level.

I price glass by U.I. ( I suppose by sq/in or sq/ft would work the same.) By the lite doesn't work from the consumers perspective unless you stock everysize. How do you explain to a customer that a peice of glass 8 1/4x10 3/4 is the same price as one that is 16x20 because that's the smallest size you stock? You can't with a straight face. By the same token, how can you justify charging a customer the same for a 16x20 mat as a 32x40 because you have to order a full sheet to fill their order? Again, you can't. Well you could, I suppose, but you might not have too many repeat customers....

Your pricing should, of course, allow you to meet all of your financial objectives, but it MUST make sense to the consumer. That means that sometimes we have to eat a little extra margin. If you manage your scrap/inventory you can turn that peice of glass or matboard into a lot more $$$$$$ by selling it in peices as opposed to the whole thing anyway. Take those "high margin" sales and the ones where you feel like you got shorted and everage them... Did you make the margin you need to to be proffittable? Then your fine. If not well dig back in and figure out why. FAST.

Regardless of how you decide to price these things it better make sense to your customer otherwise you can charge whatever you want and it won't matter because no one will come in to order it a second time...

I'm done.
 
My understanding:

When you sell a piece of glazing, it knows to sell/price based on the next standard size above the actual requirement, which you would need to cut it from. LifeSaver knows the standard glazing sizes and lets you price each of them individually.

For each size, you have a cost field, a multiplier field, and a retail field. example with fake numbers:

8 x 10 - Cost(per lite) (2.50) Multiplier (3) Retail (7.50)
(so a 7 1/4 x 8 1/2 piece of glass would price at "7.50", since it would come from an 8x10 lite)

If you don't re-use scrap, and don't stock a particular size, you can just put the price of the next larger size that you carry in that field - to price accordingly.

These fields can be initially populated by a fixed sq inch or UI amount. We put ours in by determining the cost per lite, from our suppliers price list (price per box divided by # of lites) - times a markup.

Folks with the TruVue version have an additional feature where it can (optionally) adjust the different types within proportion of each other.

Mike
 
How could we all notice less waste with our particular inventory unless the difference is insignificant? I'm still open on this topic.

As far as which is more accurate UI or Sq./In. The fact is quite clear on that, one is just more accurate than the other.

If it were moulding and it required 5 more feet of moulding to frame a 50x20 than it did a 30x40, wouldn't that be considered in your pricing?

To suggest that they are both the same just simply isn't true. Its my understanding that the UI is just left over from the paper and pencil days. It does make pricing more straight forward and quick but its not equally accurate.
 
This sounds like a May Poll

How many sizes do you carry?

But, one thing about this pricing discussion, and most others, is that how ever we each do it, we are dead certain that we have figured out the Holy Grail

I wonder, if at the end of a year, anyone could prove any method was demonstrably better

Perhaps another question might be "Has anyone ever changed their pricing matrix because of something on The Grumble?"

Bottom line: Charge an extra $1.00 per lite (or .10 U.I. for the Luddites) and quit worrying about it

BTW We stock predominately 24x36 and 32x40 with one box of 22x28, 36x48 and 40x60.
 
Good idea. Maybe we can ask by each standard size, so we'll know which ones people are stocking as well.

Mike
 
Finding Sq. footage of waste glass tip:

Lets say you weighed your crap glass. It is 25lbs and you want to know how many sq. feet is there. Glass has a density of .09 pounds per cubic in. Single strength glass is about .088” thick. So, we now have enough data to find the square footage of scrap using the formula:

Sq. footage = ((Weight / (Thickness * Density)) / 144

Therefore,

((25 / (.088 * .090))/144 = 21.9 sq ft.

Of course this works only for the same thickness of glass and you would have know what each type of glass is to put a value on it.
John
 
I guess scrap glass is crap glass...
 
Since we buy glass (and mats, too) by the square inch, to me it only makes sense to sell it by the square inch.

An easy conversion (not exactly perfect) is to take United Inches divided by two and square it.

An 16 x 20 sheet (36 UI) is actually 320 sq. in. Converting it i.e. (36 / 2) <sup>2</sup> = 324 square inches. So I’m buying 320 sq. in. and charging my customers for 324.

For the really odd ball sized glass, say, 32 x 4 (still 36 UI, but only 128 square inches), I’m still selling it at (36 / 2) <sup>2</sup> = 324 square inches. I can live with making 2.53 times as much since, theoretically, I have a lot of waste.

But if I slice a 32 x 4 strip out of a 32 x 40, I’m left with a 32 x 36 piece of “scrap” which I can certainly reuse to make more retail dollars.

Except when the piece of glass is perfectly square, converting UI to square inches, <u>always</u> works out in our favor. When it is perfectly square, the UI to sq. in. conversion is spot on.
 
Originally posted by JohnR:
I guess scrap glass is crap glass...

John, I hope not, or I'd've been "crappin' on myself for years now! I save every "scrap" bigger than 8", and it gets used. If you store it properly, it doesn't have to get scratched up.

No trashin' or scratchin' the crappin' scrappins!

(sorry..I just couldn't help myself! :rolleyes: )
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by Jay H:
How could we all notice less waste with our particular inventory unless the difference is insignificant?
Click to expand...
When I stocked 2 sizes, I had bunches of cutoffs and my scrap box (which catches the pieces too small to use) filled up very often with pieces up to 8x10.

Since I started stocking 6 sizes (in both regular and cc - and a couple of sizes in n/g) my waste has been reduced to only 3" (or so) and smaller strips, with very little, if any, cutoffs which I must sort through looking for just that right piece (without a scratch.)

The only time I have usable cutoffs is when the piece is a very oddball size like 12x36 or something equally out of proportion. Then it is worth it to put it back in the rack with paper for future use.
 
one thing to take into considering when purchasing glass in asst sizes or in just one or two sizes.... is the demographics of that frame sizes a shop is actually framing. If a shop almost never sells small frame jobs (11 x 14 or less -- or 8 x 10 or less) the scrap percentage can change from shop to shop.
 
__________________________________________________

How do you explain to a customer that a peice of glass 8 1/4x10 3/4 is the same price as one that is 16x20 because that's the smallest size you stock? You can't with a straight face.
Click to expand...
Harry...why would you ever have to explain this. I always quote the customer a price for the total job, not individual componets. That said, I do believe you should carry smaller than 16X20 or cut for a lesser price from "crap glass".

I guess if you were selling just the glass by itself and a customer asked for both a 8 1/4x10 3/4 and a 16X20 you might be exposed, but shouldn't you get something for cutting the glass too?

Dave Makielski
 
I usually buy glass for the orders that are in house if I don't have the right glass or the right size for the orders of the week.

It all seems to even out...I can't get so crazy over every possible usable scrap of glass, matboard, foamcore, moulding...even you all have had occasions when you ordered it specifically for a job and you scratched it, dropped it, marked it, whatever.

I think I have my mark-up set so that when all works perfectly I make a little more money, when it works ok I make a living, and when it's a SNAFU job I cover my a$$. That's how business works...and hopefully the more experienced of us make fewer mistakes and earn a little more moola cause you know we've paid our dues with those SNAFU's.

Sometimes you guys make my head spin...
Lurking Molly
 
Lurking Molly:

Your approach works fine.

If you really have to think and plan for every piece of material that would be scrap, you might make a few more bucks but you'll be up all night thinking about it! It ain't worth it.

Stop lurking though, join the melee and the fun!
 
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