Pricing for Canvas

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DLB

DLB

MGF, Master Grumble Framer
Joined
Sep 5, 2006
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688
Loc
Salt Lake City, Utah
Hi All,

As you can see I'm new, so I did a search on this, and didn't find what I was looking for. I have never framed a canvas before, but you have to do your first one sometime. How does it get priced? For the moulding and fitting only? Do you mark up more, since there wont be matting and glass? I would assume you use a deeper rabbitted moulding to accomodate the canvas. Also, is it standard practice to put kraft paper on the back after framing it? How much do canvas' expand and contract (these are already stretched canvas')? In other words, how much expansion room should I leave? The standard 1/8"? Any other tips or non-apperant aspects of framing I should know would be helpful. I want to make sure I know my stuff before I deal with the customer I have. So any tips, or pointers you may have would be wonderful and much appreciated.

dave.
 
Frame & fit is the usual here. Standard allowance should be fine & a deep rabbet makes life easier. Cover the back with something hard like 4ply rag or foamboard to protect the canvas from the back. Things like rabbet sealing tape & foam rabbet lineing tape are nice touches & a good idea to protect the face & edge of the canvas too.
 
I used to have only one fitting charge , now I have four. Here they are in increasing cost order

Fit no glass
Fit with glass
Fit shadow box
Fit unfixed pastel (or anything that needs to be fit faceup....)

Yes, you don't make as much $ on canvas only as there is no glass, but there is no dust chasing, fingerprint or bubble/scratch discoveries either, consequently you can get onto the next job that much faster and increase volume. I also back with fomecore and charge seperately for it from the fit charge.
 
Can you get those two tapes you mentioned from United? Also, is it a both, or one or the other situation? I would imagine foamboard would be the preferred protective method for the back, correct?

All in all, it's like framing anything else except without glass and matboard. Right?

Thanks very much,

david.
 
Generally, mouldings that have the needed rabbet depth tend to be more expensive than “regular” mouldings so we do not have a greater markup for canvas depth (a whole ‘nother discussion). If, however, the depth is too shallow, you will need offset hardware to keep it secure. Be sure to charge for both the hardware and the labor needed to screw them in.

We do have a different fitting charge for glazed and unglazed art – glazed art is more since we need to clean the glass.

Standard canvas allowance is 3/16” rather than 1/8”. But use the maximum dimensions for each side since canvases tend not to be truly square.

And, Kraft paper … oh, boy, here we go again! The pendulum now is swinging towards protecting the back of the stretched canvas by stapling a sheet of cardboard (minimum) or screwing a sheet of masonite (maximum). The other end of the pendulum is to leave the back of the frame open so it can “breathe”. Kraft backing is somewhere in the middle.

Search the archives for a few discussions of this “controversy”.
 
I used to be of the opinion that canvas needed to breath. I now occasionally work as a freelance museum preparator for the Clark Art Institute in Williamstown, MA matting artwork, hanging paintings, adjusting lighting, packing artwork, etc. I can attest that every painting I have handled there from Winslow Homer, John Singer Sargent, Monet, Renior, Van Gogh, Degas etc. have a hard back screwed on, most often coroplast or fomecore with no allowance for "breathing". I now do the same in my shop.
 
I generally use Cor-X board to protect the back of the canvas and use a rabbet guard tape such that even though you have no glazing (and dust) to worry about the charge is slightly higher than a standard fit...if I remember to add a couple bucks.

As far as securing the canvas in the frame...the cheap way is to nail through the stretchers at a 45 degree angle right into the frame. The better way is to use mirror holders or some other hardware to secure the painting without putting any holes in the canvas edge. I admit to using both methods depending on the situation and the value of the oil.

I'll take this moment to jump on my soapbox again about making sure the painting has been varnished. We are the last line of defense in protecting any original work of art. If the painting is new and is an oil, it needs to dry for at least 6-12 months before varnishing with a clear removable acrylic varnish. You can generally tell if the painting is an oil or an acrylic by smelling the surface. Both should be varnished. To frame a painting without ascertaining whether it has been varnished is doing a dis-service to our customers. All the talk about framing for preservation is for naught if the painting leaves your shop without being varnished. Pollutants in the air will bond to the paint and ruin the painting over time if it is left unvarnished.

When a painting is cleaned the process of cleaning entails removing the existing varnish and re-varnishing the painting. If a painting is not varnished the pollutants in the air and any other dirt, splashes, etc. become embedded in the top layer of the paint and little can be done even by a conservator to clean the painting.

One of the easiest ways to tell if an oil has been varnished is to hold it up to the light at an angle and see if the finish of the painting is uniformly glossy or matte. Different oil color pigments dry at varying degrees of glossiness and if the painting is splotchy it has more than likely never been varnished.

I would go so far as to say that any framer that has not educated him or herself to this aspect of art preservation is negligent in their duties as a framer or, at the very least, is doing a disservice to their clientèle.

:soapbox:

Dave Makielski
 
I neglected to point out that if a painting has glazing over it that there is not the need for a varnished surface although I often will still recommend it.

Dave Makielski
 
Hey Michigan Dave,

I would like to yank your chain.

I can tell you that many times over the years, I have used very bad words when unframing a canvas that has been toenailed in. I hate that the nails gouge the canvas and splinter the frame. I hate how hard they are to dig out. Offsets and turnbuttons are so dang easy, that there is no reason to ever toenail.

I have also always considered varnishing a painting the sole responsibility of the artist.

Let me put it this way: If I took my painting to a framer and they applied some goo to the front and hammered nails through the side into its frame, I would be very angry.

Just my opinion. And I am interested in hearing others'.

DLBDave, I price framing these as usual, that is 'a la carte.' I give no extra allowance, unless the canvas is out of square and doing so would make it work. I also use coroplast behind.

edie the opinionated goddess
 
You guys are awesome. Thanks for the advice. Yeah, as far as varnishing goes, I would not even want to delve into that. I figure if the artist wanted to protect it, then they would have varnished it. There's just something about me putting a liquid/spray right over where the artist performed their work. I looked in Vivian Kistlers book #1 for references, and I saw the type of attachment that you were talking about FramingGoddess. I'm gonna order up some right away, as that is my chosen method.

Keep the info coming. I appreciate it. The Rabbet tape -- is that what its called or is there a different name for it?

Thanks,

dave.
 
I fully agree that toenailing is not the preferred method and can be difficult to remove compared to using non-invasive hardware and I mostly use this method only when I've removed a toenailed canvas from an existing frame and re-frame it using the existing holes. Pe-drilling solves the splitting problems.

If you left varnishing up to the artist, the majority of canvases would never be varnished. I've been in the framing business all my life and, until recently, the art supply business. It is sad to say that the majority of artists have little knowledge about the materials they use. As an art supplier, I did my best to educate artists about the materials they use and their longevity. Shamefully, most of the artists, some quite renown and considered "serious artists", cared little about what happened to their work after the ink on their checks dried. In no way am I saying all artists had such a disregard for their own work, but those that took the time to understand the materials they were using were few and far between compared to those that wanted the least expensive pigments, brushes and substrates. Those that cared and took the time to be knowledgeable about the materials they used I respected deeply. Most couldn't be bothered and often received little training on such topics in any formal education they may have received. Often art professors are not up to speed on materials. I've had professors recommend materials not made for 20 years and even had them tell their students to use house paint turpentine to mix with their pigments adding back all the impurities chemist have labored for years learning how to remove.

Remember, an oil painting requires an extended period of time before it can be varnished in order to let the painting dry enough to properly take the varnish which seals the surface. I have framed oils unvarnished and mark my calendar to call the customer after 6-12 months to have them bring the painting back for varnishing. I normally do not charge any fees for removing and refitting the canvas...just the varnishing charge which many customers will pay upfront when the initial framing is done. Most artists fail to tell customers the need for varnishing if they are even aware of it.

Using a clear removable acrylic varnish...the first coat brushed followed with one or two spray coatings will protect the painting. It isn't rocket science and is quite within the realm of framers to provide this service when a painting is in good condition. It also can be quite profitable and actually is pleasurable as you become more intimate with the painting and the techniques used by the artist...not to mention that a varnished painting is much more attractive as the colors come out more vividly after proper varnishing.

In case you can't tell, I am passionate about this topic. I sincerely believe that as framers, if we don't take on this responsibility, no one else will. It is every bit as important as keeping the framing components from causing damage.

Dave Makielski
 
opinionated godess

Edie,
I very much feel the same way you do on all counts. It doesn't take a lot more time or effort to do it the better way.

Lori
 
Lineco makes the tapes. You can get them from United, LJ & others I'm sure. Probably even a good art supply, at least you can at ours. I'm not at the shop but I think its "frame sealing tape" or some such. It's an aluminum barrier tape & good for finishing of unsealed frame rabbets, fillets & such. The other is "rabbet foam" tape & gives a little cusion so the rabbet dose'nt rub the surface of the painting. I charge the same as other fittings. I may not have to clean glass & all but I do these things that I don't have to with glazed pieces so to me it's a wash. Of course unusual circumstances may call for additional charges. I guess you could say framing a canvas is exactly like framing anything else. Each piece is unique. Re: varnish. I recently started usein Gamblins "Gamar" varnish on the reccomendation of a conservator & it rocks!
 
Does anyone use the canvas clips, Clip-Its? We sell a lot of ready-made frames to artists and find that the Clip-Its work well on the smaller frames. These frames usually require no backing. Our artist friends, in particular, like to pop the canvases out for varnishing or reframing from time to time.

With our custom work, we use off-sets, and paper the back. I like the idea of using foam board, though. I can certainly see the safety factor coming into play there. Thanks for the tip!
 
Clippity-clip

I have Clip-Its available to those artists that ask for them specifically, when they want to quick-switch, say, for a show or something, and for ready-mades-on-the-go. I don't like them at all; they don't hold the canvas in the frame tight enough, they dig into the rabbet, they can pop off and the painting fall out, and if not clipped in carefully, can dent the canvas from behind.

But I had so many requests for them, I have them on hand anyway. And if asked to use them in fitting, I charge the same as for offsets, etc., which is the same charge for most standard fitting, glass or not.

I also use spring clips if the canvas sticks out the back, those slightly curved flat metal pieces with a screw-hole in one end. I'm not wild about those either, but better than clip-its, and easy to pop a painting in & out, just loosen the screw and swivel. I prefer offsets.

Just for the record....I hate toenailing. If you've ever pounded one pound too many and put the nail through the liner, or out the front of the frame, you know why. And what was said about taking one apart later...ACK!!

I was taught to leave the back exposed, to "breathe", but since I've been a Grumbler, have changed my views on that too. I'm making a slow transition, but at least it's a transition! Depends on the situation.
 
After all my soap boxing about the need for varnishing and reading Terry Hart's post recommending Gamblin's Gamar Varnish, I found an interesting quote on Gamblin's web site that I'll quote here...


"Varnishing is an aesthetic decision. We live in much cleaner environments. For examples, coal is no longer used to heat homes and fewer people smoke tobacco so paintings will not get as dirty. Also, contemporary oil colors are much stronger than paints of the past. So if you do not like the way any varnish looks now, consider adding a line to the stretcher bars or on the back of the panel that says: "ok to varnish in the future." This way you can let conservators of the future add a varnish layer if appropriate."




I have the highest respect for Bob Gamblin and his knowledge of artist materials and their use. I still believe that it is prudent to varnish any oil painting not knowing where any painting will be hung in future years, but I acknowledge that best conservation procedures change constantly and my bias about varnishing is based on my own knowledge based on historical knowledge and practice.


Here's a link to the website for anyone interested in reading futher:


http://www.gamblincolors.com/faq/varnish.html

Maybe it's time to trim my jib.

Dave Makielski
 
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& wouldn't it already be too late if it would be found to "need" varnish in the future? Of course that would seem to contrast with statements from a couple other manufacturers that now seem to be adviseing prevarnishing with waterborn acrylic before applying solvent based acrylic varnish. I still haven't got a good explaination for that one.
 
Hi again, Dave

I am not biased against varnishing in general, I just happen to think that it is up to the artist, NOT the framer, to make that decision.

I just wanted to make that clear. Make that a clear gloss, please...

edie the nonsmoking goddess
 
I'm of the school of thought that the owner of the painting is the ultimate decision maker of whether or not a painting should be varnished. One reason being what I stated earlier about artists often not being knowledgeable about preservation. The other as quoted by Bob Gamblin that varnish is an aesthetic decision...I believe much like the frame selected for the painting.

Here's another interesting quote from the Gamblin web site:

"Q: I have two old paintings that I took out of storage and both are very yellow. What should I do?

A: Put the paintings in direct sunlight. Oils naturally yellow in the dark and recover their color when returned to the light. It takes about two weeks of bright light for them to fully recover."

Wow...so much for putting your art where the sun don't shine! ;) I do realize that this recommendation is not intended for extended periods of time...I learn something new every day!

Dave Makielski
 
For attaching a canvas to a frame or liner we use scrap pieces of canvas cut into strips about 1-1/2" wide and 4' long. Staple the strips to the rabbet or the back of the liner at appropriate intervals, then wrap them around the back of the stretcher bars and staple them to the inside edge of the stretcher bars. Works for us no matter how wide/deep the rabbet, as well as times when a fillet is used and we increase the inside dimensions of the frame or liner to show as much of the image as possible.

Does anyone else prefer canvas strips?

Aloha, Cam
 
Two things when doing a canvas that should be pointed out to help you in the future. Always measure from corner to corner diagnal to check teh squareness of the canvas. If you dont, you will be sorry-gauranteed this will get you atleast one out of ten times.

The second thing, varnish is the artists dicision. How can one be practicing conservation methods when they are changing the artwork? This is bad, if t you are a conservator that is fine, but if you are a framer-stick to your job. You can offer to glaze the artwork, that is a way for a framer to handle it. If you have extensive knowledge with oil painting and no what the artist used and how it was painted then maybe. But you are changing the artwork. If you had an original Monet would you do it? No, why? Ok then dont do it for other works that you dont know about.

Keep it simple and you wont hurt anything. The name of the felt adhesive on a roll that is applied when using a frame with a rabit is Volara.

that is a high soapbox, but it is mine and i got a ladder to get on it.

PL
 
Irony of ironies. The reason I started this thread was because tonight I was going over to a lady's house to work up a quote and do the design work for her. We started talking about this exact subject....and she said "no varnishing". It turns out she is a conservator. She said it darkens the piece too much, etc. etc. I just thought it was funny that she turned out to be a conservator. I'm glad I asked you guys so I didn't look like a fool.

Thanks a bunch!!! I ended up getting 8 pieces from her to frame. Not a bad days work.

dave.
 
I'll tend to agree with Edie that it's not my responsibility to varnish or otherwise alter an artist's work. That said, Dave's point is well-stated and he obviously believes otherwise. I still don't want to do it, but he's a conscientious fellow for providing the customer the option. Dave, I'm assuming you do discuss it with them and charge for it accordingly.

We do very many canvases---a high number the type bought through to-the-trade periodic shows---follow the guidelines of standard stretching techniques, secure in the frame with offsets if needed, or double-pointed framer's points if art fits inside the rabbet. We cover the backs with 4-ply board or f/c, stapled or screwed to stretcher-bar backs, and finish the entire back with either kraft or blue Lineco, depending on what the piece is. Hanging system is appropriate for size, orientation, and weight, and is included. We add some steps for antiquity canvases or high-end art pieces. I feel very strongly the guts of the installation should be hidden: they're ugly.

Good suggestions on varying fitting charges: being a little lazy about such detail work recently, I think I'll amend the computer category.
 
MerpsMom mentioned something about in regard to a question I had. Are offsets an acceptable format to use on canvas? The customer orderered several mouldings that do not have a deep enough rabbet. Use offsets? Do the offsets go above or below the Fom-Cor board (do they hold it down, or staple the Fom-Cor above the offset clips? Also, what's the best way to put the Kraft Paper on the back? Kind of like wrapping a present? Attach two parallel sides, and then neatly fold down the other two edges where the stretcher bars stick up above the mouldings rabbet?

Thanks,

dave.
 
Dave,
Use the offsets to hold everything in including whatever you use as a backer. It is perfectly acceptable to use a thinner backer (like mat board-even 2 ply- instead of fc) if your rabbet is shallow.
I paper over all of that and I slit the corners diagonally where the frame miter is to allow the paper to lay flat-ish on the corners.
Then wire as usual. I use flat mirror hangers, aka strap hangers.

edie the idontlikescreweyes goddess
 
We dont have any different pricing schedule for fitting, as many have said, it takes less time.

We back with tyvek and craft paper.

As far as attaching the stretched canvas to the frame, offset clips and screws seem to be the best, structurally.
 
DLB said:
...Are offsets an acceptable format to use on canvas?...
Click to expand...

Offsets are OK, but with one caveat: they must not press tightly. If fitted too tightly, the painted surface in contact with the frame lip (even when it is properly padded) may be damaged by compression or sticking.

The Canadian Conservation Institute (CCI) recommends fitting by custom-bent mending plates, so that minimal pressure is applied. They also recommend using mending plates with two screws into the back of the frame moulding, and none into the stretcher. (CCI Notes, section 10/8, page 3).

A solid backing board is always recommended. It not only provides mechanical protection, but also dampens the effects of impact & vibration, and slows the rate of change within the frame resulting from environmental changes, such as temperature and humidity.

Avoid putting the hanging hardware on the stretcher, which may be tempting if the thickness of the package exceeds rabbet depth. Put it on the outer frame as usual. That is because the gravitational force of hanging might impose stress on the stretcher and the canvas it supports. CCI discourages wire and recommends D-rings.
 
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CCI

Jim Miller said:
The Canadian Conservation Institute (CCI) recommends...
Click to expand...

Just curious why you include recomendations from this side of the line?

{you mean we actually have someone who knows what they are talking about up here???}
 
What line?

HB said:
Just curious why you include recomendations from this side of the line?

{you mean we actually have someone who knows what they are talking about up here???}
Click to expand...

You bet, HB. :thumbsup:

As far as I know, CCI is the prevailing authority for published instructions about framing canvas artworks. I learned a lot about their "CCI Notes" during development of the MCPF exam a few years ago, and have kept my copy of "Notes" current since then.

When the MCPF was developed, the PPFA Certification Board members all agreed that every grading-point of exam criteria had to be supported by some published authority. (That is, we didn't make up any rules.) Well, in 2000 it was really difficult to find up-to-date, recently published references for framing canvas paintings. So, most of the MCPF exam criteria for framing canvas paintings, which is all given in the PPFA-published MCPF Study Guide, were verified by, or adapted from, CCI-published recommendations.

Some US government authorities may have more advanced knowledge and conservation practices, but the US government does not publish them.

Hugh Phibbs and the conservators with which he works, for example, might not completely agree with some of the CCI instructions. I do not, and had an opportunity a couple of months ago to tell them so. Their response was kind and considerate: CCI conservators are in the process of revising Section 10 (canvas art) of the CCI Notes, and invited me to offer suggestions. I'm sure they were just being nice, but gosh, they sure made me feel good about CCI.
 
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