Pricing Chop vs Length

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Charging per hour for speciality products has no place in this trade (or any others that I can think of). If it takes you longer to complete a task, odds are its because your not as profecient at it as somebody more practiced. Pricing per hour would encourage you to charge more for inferior products. That could create a whole host of problems down the road.


Jay,

I don't think that Buddy or Dave are talking in these tones at all. I read their posts to mean that, as you pick up a new specialty, you practice at becoming proficient until that time when you feel comfortable doing it in a reasonable time and consistently, and THEN you set your price according to the time it takes to do the job. I don't think that it has anything to do with how fast you are compared to someone else or how slow for that matter, if your prices are out of line with what the traffic will bear, you will have little sales in that specialty.

By the same token, if your prices are generally higher as they could become by jacking up your retail percentages helter skelter then your business will drop off as more and more potential customers and also return customers realize what is going on and start to shop around for better pricing. It is an evil circle that must be balanced out for it to work to your advantage. If you are close to the apex of your retail pricing as we all should be if we track our COGS and keep up with our updates and watch our buying habits, and adjust accordingly, raising your prices across the board another 25%, as an example, COULD put you out of business depending on the economic condition of the area in which you are doing business.

You made mention of the 1" flat black moulding that most every distributor carries and I don't argue with what you said about the pricing of both the length and the chop prices. But why carry all those plain jane 1" flat black mouldings in your line and worry about which one to charge for this time??? Pick one of those mouldnings (funny thing, but I would veer towards the cheapest wholesale cost for my use) and toss the others into the storage bin out back. That seems to solve the problem in one fell swoop. From there you can price it according to the highest or the lowest of that group or by length or chop pricing but you will at least know right out of the gate that you are using "a price" that is real and could be one that you would have to pay to get that moulding if you didn't have all the other choices to pick from.

This situation of pricing is becoming so complex for the little guy who is worrying about how to get the rent together or where the next customer is going to come from and it isn't one that applies to all businesses equally. Cash flow and available funds and business size and location and customer base etc. etc. etc. all have a bearing on how much to charge for your services. The economy of an impoverished area has a very strong and real impact on pricing over a more affluent area of the country.


I have worked in both enough to see that what works for one business is NOT going to work for another if the apples are mixed in with the oranges.

FGII
 
Originally posted by Jay H:
Charging per hour for speciality products has no place in this trade (or any others that I can think of). If it takes you longer to complete a task, odds are its because your not as profecient at it as somebody more practiced. Pricing per hour would encourage you to charge more for inferior products. That could create a whole host of problems down the road.
Click to expand...
How do you propose, Jay, that one should charge for art delivery and hanging at a customer's house?

If not per hour, then how? Per art piece? By the size of the art? By how many nails / hooks were used?
 
There is room for both in any given mid-size market but I have a hard time envisioning what a successful growing operation would look like that effectively hits all markets could look like under one roof.


Dave,

There have been a few attempts at doing that, I think one of the names that comes to mind is "Super Wal-Mart"??

Not what I want to be branded alongside of.

FGII
 
I've got a good name for such an operation...

"Art Wall Mart".

Think their legal pockets are bigger than ours?

Dave Makielski
 
Dave, by my measure, the best all around shop I have ever been in was very busy. It was also the owner’s goal to be the cheapest in town. That is the reputation he wanted and lived by it. Oh and when we were talking about the coveted CC frames he grumbled “I hate those things. It takes forever to get them in and they are expensive and I don’t sell but 5 or 6 of them a month.” I’m sure he would not be insulted by your child like jabs as a name of such store. In fact I’ll bet he would consider them. How many CC have you sold this year?

You might be limiting your scope of what a business can and can’t do a bit to narrowly.

When pricing specialty mat cuts, photo restoration and even hanging x number of pictures isn’t there is a perceived value? If you can’t perform that task inside the determined value then you shouldn’t offer it. Like framerguy suggested, if you’re proficient then I guess you can use time to determine the retail price. I would still check this often to make certain you aren’t out of line with others doing this. Still if it’s something your not proficient at then the time it takes you to accomplish a task has NOTHING to do with the “retail” value for the reasons I listed before.
 
I meant nothing condescending with the nomenclature I used...It may be a very appropriate name in some markets.

Wow...5-6 CC's a month...that is impressive for a store that has obviously positioned himself for that lower end market.

I would be curious to know what, if any, local competition exists or if the CC frames he sells are discounted very heavily.

I apologize if I've given the impression that I think "high end framers" are in any way superior to or smarter than the less expensive production oriented shops. Anyone that knows me would realize that I'm not at all a high brow and if you saw my facility you would not necessarily leave with any ideas to go home with and change your decorum. I'm a one man operation now and have little time to devote to merchandising and display.

I also would not even necessarily put myself in the category of "high end framer" or, if I did, it would be at the lower end of the strata.

Through my door come people from all walks of life. I try my best to service them... However, if I know that they can go down the street and get want they want for less than I can provide a service to them, I don't hesitate to politely help them satisfy their needs within the budget they can or want to afford and will willingly recommend a competitor.

Oh, I almost forgot to answer your question. I currently show no samples of CC frames, but am evaluating different lines. In my former business we showed and occassionally sold Abe Munn's.

Dave Makielski
 
Jay-I'm not sure how these things get so convoluted, but they do

Find something that works well for you and maximize it. It matters not what someone elsewhere thinks.

My suggestion: Find three or four shops that you feel are successful. Profile them; break 'em down in every way possible. Find strengths, look for weaknesses and apply those factors to your own biz. The more positive factors you can "clone", the better. The more "negative" factors you can eliminate, even better.

Reading so much of this thread is eerily reminiscent of listening to a bunch of old drunks at a bar close to closing time discussing Barry Bonds home run record. They are all convinced that they have all the logic and answers and in truth, it just doesn't really make one bit of difference in the outcome

Follow your own instincts
 
Who's Barry Bond?

Never mind...it doesn't make any difference.

Dave Makielski
 
Dave that's probably because neither you nor I have ever been hanging around bars with a BUNCH OF DRUNKS at closing time enough to discuss that gentleman or anyone else for that matter. But it is nice to be able to SOBERLY share opinions here on TFG where all input is apprecaited even from some one with as little acceptance as an expert as myself.Thanks for listening.
BUDDY
PS However Dave If we did find ourselves in one of those establisments and did hear one of those social discussions I'll bet we wouldn't turn up our noise at the patrons discussion in an aire of superiority even if what they said didn't make any differance to the outcome what so ever. They probably might feel the same about our conversation don't you think?

[ 07-20-2006, 05:33 PM: Message edited by: BUDDY ]
 
Gosh and i thought i was dumb by doing this:

My suggestion: Find three or four shops that you feel are successful. Profile them; break 'em down in every way possible. Find strengths, look for weaknesses and apply those factors to your own biz. The more positive factors you can "clone", the better. The more "negative" factors you can eliminate, even better.

I have been writing things down like this for the past three years, but I think I did six shops. Some of the positives overlap. Many of the neagatives overlap as well. I will have to go back to doing this, know that I know I am not crazy or wasting time. Some days I think I have been telling my lady the truth, I tell her I am a bam genius!!!She just laughs me off/


PL
 
I did a Grumble tour. Of coarse I went to NC to tour the framing capitol or the world. There I checked out Warrens place, Applewood, and Cedarwood. All hosts exceeded my wildest expectations and I learned alot. It was a weekend well spent!

In fact I'm taking a trip down to the Smoky Mountains the first week of August. I'll be I'll end up in a frame shop or two there, or on the way too. It beats a bar anyway (ok maybe thats a little extream).
 
Jay I don't know what I am doing that makes you feel That you are being personally contradicted by me or anyone who agrees with me in any way.

I Answered the original post by saying how I used to determine my cost based on the highest chop price available to ME. I did this so if a.) I had to use chop as opposed to lenght I still didn't loose any profit. I also stated b.) I used the highest priced one I might buy in the event that it was all that was available I still was in the game profitably. However the mark up factor never got mentioned as I remember it.

I stated those choices because it was how I felt I could best use the choices. Weather you or any one else does is entirely up to you and I never suggested to you what rate anyone ( including myself ) should use. This is largely because I strongly feel that can vary dramatically with location and how stiff your competition is in that area. I have stated that several times ,but I didn't think that was part of the original question this time.

However when Dave mentioned his methods I stated I liked them very much ( not that anyone else needs to ,I don't set my opinions any higher than anyone else's) This is despite the fact that others seem to be agreeing with various aspects of Dave and my opinions and from what I see are sometimes saying so.

But as I remeber it he mentioned the use of a stop watch to determine the amount of time it took to complete certain specialty task. I also remember Brian Wolf and Vivian Kistler suggesting that as very good method for coming up with a price for some of those out of the ordinary task we are asked to preform.

I further suggested that Brian told us to time ourselves UNTIL we became COMPLETELY PROFICIANT and then use that time as a multiple to compute our rate. Complete proficiency means to me when there is a no hesitancy at producing a constantly customer acceptable product. I didn't ,and Brian warned us not to, compare our work to anyone else and subsequently not the time it took to complete it since My best effort may not be Brian's worse ,nor are all our efforts equally as good as anyone else. Why on earth are You conducting a Framing competition if we feel all of us have equal amount of talent? If not equal should we charge the same for our specialty efforts? But then how would we compute a charge that is fair to the customer and OURSELVES?

On the topic of shopping the competition ,I think I have always said I agreed with that ,even when some who weren't anywhere near my area told me I was too cheap ,after I had suggested and named others in various levels of my area whose prices where comparative with mine. But I feel you still have to have a base with which to start just as this original question about which we use CHOP OR LENGHT. So this subject isn't to far a stretch from the original.

As to weather or not it will affect the outcome of any one's pricing is entirely up to that person's consensus of opinions. But If all they ever listen to is one theory or their own they will never reap the benefit of even not listening to the bad ones posted here .

You said you made a Grumble tour .Might I ask why? Did you just visit the shops that agreed with you? Or did you go see some of the ones that you had some doubt about. I hope you did both. I know I would and I'll bet most others would have greeted you just as amicably ,just like the sharing that they try to give you here on TFG. But alas I am left with nothing but my written Opinions to share and no shop for you to visit. However I do remember one nice evening in Atlanta some years ago having a pleasant discussion with a nice young man I hope I didn't annoy too much.
BUDDY
 
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