Price Check: Repairing Customers Frames

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rmehoves

rmehoves

CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
Joined
Jun 29, 2009
Posts
337
Loc
Florida
We take in a lot of customers frames for repairs. Normally the charge is $20.00 and this includes: trim and re-build if needed, otherwise re-glue the open corners, touch-up and putty. I feel that we are way too cheap for this service and are hurting ourselves by being so cheap that the customer doesn't even consider a new frame.
BTW half of these frames would really only make good kindling as they look like they were tied with a chain and dragged behind the car! :vomit:
I'm not in a position to change this but would like your thoughts on if you offer this service and what do you normally charge?
 
Hourly Rate

We charge hourly rate
60.00 Per hour most basic repairs are 30.00 to 45.00 the full meal deal breaking apart the remaining legs glue v-nail putty cleaning etc.. 45 to 60
Basic glue nail no clean no putty no fuss is 20.00
 
rmehoves said:
We take in a lot of customers frames for repairs. Normally the charge is $20.00 and this includes: trim and re-build if needed, otherwise re-glue the open corners, touch-up and putty. I feel that we are way too cheap for this service and are hurting ourselves by being so cheap that the customer doesn't even consider a new frame.
BTW half of these frames would really only make good kindling as they look like they were tied with a chain and dragged behind the car! :vomit:
I'm not in a position to change this but would like your thoughts on if you offer this service and what do you normally charge?
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Firstly, we do basic frame repairs but dont have a fixed fee. We look at the frame and make an assessment as to whether the frame is actually worth repairing and advise the client accordingly.

If so, we consider the amount of labour time it would take and charge our normal hourly rate PLUS any materials that we will need (including Glue, V-nails, Tape, points, hanging cord, etc...). Your time and costs should be paid for :)

Secondly, Can I ask - WHY are you not in a position to change this ?
 
i too charge about 20 bucks to re do a frame, that doesn't inlclude a fitting charge if needed. so with that included depending on what the person wants it could be 30-40 over all.

once in a while i get lucky and the frame is WAY to small for the picture the person has it in, and it falls apart on its own. so they ask if i can redo it. i just tell them i could, but that the frame is so small the same thing will happen again one day. then i get to sell them a new frame :) they look confused though at first like. well why did someone else put it in this frame if it dosen't work... so in a way i am the bad guy, but so be it. they came to me to fix it.

i had a customer bring me their own moulding they got from a closing frame shop they demolished, which is his buisness. i still made enough from mats and stuff, and charged him the 20 bucks on each of the 8 frames i did for him. he was happy, and would not have gotten it all framed if he had to pay for frames.
 
I do the same as OzFramer... each repair has to stand on its own. I guesstimate the time involved and charge my shop time and materials.

If your repairs are taking 15-20 minutes to do then, yes, $ 20.00 is not ridiculously low. However I doubt that very few frames can be broken apart, re-mitered, re-joined and touched up in 20 minutes.

Don't forget the time talking to the customer at the design counter when they drop it off and when they pick it up.

I presume you do charge extra for any fitting, mats, glass, etc.

Most of my repair jobs take about an hour to do properly...some more, some a bit less.
 
Yes, we do have regular charges for fitting, cutting mats, etc for these frames however a lot of these are to go and the repair is all we do. We cater to a lot of artists and they change out the frames their-self.
 
rmehoves said:
Yes, we do have regular charges for fitting, cutting mats, etc for these frames however a lot of these are to go and the repair is all we do. We cater to a lot of artists and they change out the frames their-self.
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I feel your pain...:icon11:

As to charge...I charge an hourly rate of 60 dollars per hour and base the charge on how long I think it will take me with a minimum of a 20 dollars.

Often, the artist dictates how much repair work to be done based on the cost.
 
2X fitting charge plus additional shop time at $80.00/hr ($20.00/15 minute increment).
I quote that and can back off the charge should the job go easier than expected. I also will provide a comparable replacement frame quote.
If I quote low (and the frame turns out to be built by Murphy) there's not much room to negotiate upwards after the fact.
 
Fixing a frame entails twice as much labor (unfit and refit) and I always make that clear to my customers. And I charge same as Wally.

Many times it is even cheaper to get a new frame!
 
Keep in mind what portion of your mark up on a comparable new frame is devoted to paying for labor & overhead. It shouldn't be cheaper than that to rework an old frame. Quite the opposite in my opinion unless you're considering it a goodwill gesture.
 
reading more things here... i guess i charge to little for an hour of work. but really. a frame takes me maybe 5 min to rejoin. usually there is no un fitting fee... the frame falls apart and the picture isn't even in the frame anymore.

now broken glass on the other hand. yeah... then the unfitting charge applies. maybe even a PIA fee :smiley:

how much is the average fitting fee for some of you? i know it varies on size of the picture, but ive been working out my prices again lately trying to get closer to a good average price for my area. sometimes i feel the fitting fee i charge may be to much. but i have nothing to compare it to.
 
$20-$30 is about what we'd charge for most frames. We just charge two fitting fees normally. If the job looks like it may really take a while, we'll add 30 minutes of labor charge too, or even an hour.
 
The unfit-refit charge is to cover for the unexpected and the cleanup. Unfitting can also include scraping the residual dust cover off the back (don't care for the layered build up from just applying the new one over the old, though it might help in dating the piece at some time), and the crud off the glass. Surface cleaning the frame (stiff bristle brush and vacuum) and minor touch up. Disassembly, refacing the miters, rejoing and any restoration of the frame is additional.
 
Minimum 60.00 and goes up from there. Last one i did was built by Moses and I charged the woman 200.00 to cut it and fit it. (I wanted to charge enough so she would say NO WAY but at least I made out on it)

i don't want them using old carp when I can sell new.

If they want it cheap they can try it for themselves in their
basement.



Bob
 
Puppiesonacid said:
reading more things here... i guess i charge to little for an hour of work. but really. a frame takes me maybe 5 min to rejoin.
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That's impossible. First you have design table time. You have to unfit the old frame, which usually means prying out old brads, points or staples. Then you have to clean up the rabbet because of all the usual flaking paper and gunk in there. Then you have to break the frame apart, which often damages the corner.Then you have to pry out the old joining hardware. Then you have to shave off the excess dried glue and damage. Then you have to color the edges. Then you join and hope it doesn't crumble in the underpinner. Then you have to putty because the frame is often warped and in bad shape, and finally you can refit, but you may have had to shave to old mat and glass down to fit in the newly sized frame. Oh, and then you need to clean up the mess.

This takes more than double the time it takes to build and fit an new frame.

I need to look at my POS prices today.
 
Kirstie said:
That's impossible. First you have design table time. You have to unfit the old frame, which usually means prying out old brads, points or staples. Then you have to clean up the rabbet because of all the usual flaking paper and gunk in there. Then you have to break the frame apart, which often damages the corner.Then you have to pry out the old joining hardware. Then you have to shave off the excess dried glue and damage. Then you have to color the edges. Then you join and hope it doesn't crumble in the underpinner. Then you have to putty because the frame is often warped and in bad shape, and finally you can refit, but you may have had to shave to old mat and glass down to fit in the newly sized frame. Oh, and then you need to clean up the mess.

This takes more than double the time it takes to build and fit an new frame.

I need to look at my POS prices today.
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When you list it like that WE ARE ALL undercharging.



Bob
 
haha. no no no no no. kristie. it takes 5 min to join the frame alone... not the rest. i do charge more for fitting if they want me to put it back together. on their picture, but i have just raised my fitting charges cause i am realizing what you said as well. some things do take more than others.

on old pictures where they want you to use the same frame and change the mats i charge quite a bit because of everything you listed. im going with more just rebuilding an old frame by its self. nothing more :)
 
Kirstie said:
That's impossible. First you have design table time. You have to unfit the old frame, which usually means prying out old brads, points or staples. Then you have to clean up the rabbet because of all the usual flaking paper and gunk in there. Then you have to break the frame apart, which often damages the corner.Then you have to pry out the old joining hardware. Then you have to shave off the excess dried glue and damage. Then you have to color the edges. Then you join and hope it doesn't crumble in the underpinner. Then you have to putty because the frame is often warped and in bad shape, and finally you can refit, but you may have had to shave to old mat and glass down to fit in the newly sized frame. Oh, and then you need to clean up the mess.

This takes more than double the time it takes to build and fit an new frame.

I need to look at my POS prices today.
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Hah, Kirstie, I should just print that out and show it to the next frame-repair customer when quoting a price! I'll add that to the list of things I'm stealing from you, along with your beautiful frame designs, and your e-newsletter! Which reminds me, congrats on the award. I read the article carefully and took lots of notes!
 
Puppiesonacid said:
haha. no no no no no. kristie. it takes 5 min to join the frame alone... not the rest. i do charge more for fitting if they want me to put it back together. on their picture, but i have just raised my fitting charges cause i am realizing what you said as well. some things do take more than others.

on old pictures where they want you to use the same frame and change the mats i charge quite a bit because of everything you listed. im going with more just rebuilding an old frame by its self. nothing more :)
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Puppies, even if all you are doing is rebuilding the frame, with no fitting, it's a mistake to focus on just the joining fee. I doubt the customer will have brought you the frame disassembled and with clean miters, ready for rejoining. 99,999 times out of 100,000, you'll have to clean up those corners yourself before rejoining, and even if you do a fine job of that, some touch-up work on the corners will be necessary. Plus these frames usually were in the dirtiest part of the garage, basement or attic, and you'll have to clean up your work table afterwards. So it makes sense to look at the entire rebuilding process, and price it out as a package.
 
well paul. i guess ive been lucky so far. either the frames people have brought me are big enough where i can take them apart and put them back together again. ive done smaller ones too like that. been REAL lucky. i tell the customer that there is a chance i may not be able to fix it, and give the list of reasons why. so really, i clean the frames where the v nails go and make sure they are as flat as i can get them, and then stick it in the vnailer and join it.

i know what you are talking about though. some frames ive seen, i can't join. unless you have some special tool or however they were joined originally, you can't do anything with it. won't fit in the joiner, or a corner vise. just to oddly shaped. but those are the customers i can talk into buying new frames.

sadly enough sometimes i hope i can't get their frames together so i can sell them a new frame. stinks being to good sometimes :icon21:
 
You really do have to take it on a frame by frame basis. The girls here in the shop just have me look at it since I am the one doing it. Kills me when they have a frame split half the length of a rail and they want me to fix that! On an average I charge $5 a corner, $5 to chop it down, $15 labor charge and then I will add a charge for the turd polishing if needed. Usually we get a glass and fit sale out of the deal too so that helps make it worth the while. Even better when the mat got scratch from the broken glass and that needs replaced.
 
I don't understand how anyone could give a fixed price on something as involved as this.

And what about the risk factor? You break it while trying to fix it?

I don't do a lot of repairs. I have people come in and ask me and more than half are beyond repair.
Where I can re-use/repair, I charge labor, materials and a little extra.
 
Repearing the frame is the most easy way to loose the customer. That frame is not well made if corner separate. You fix one corner and after a while the second is gone. YOU BAD. You repeared the frame not the corner. Never more you will see that customer, or you are the only choice to him.
 
Puppiesonacid said:
im going with more just rebuilding an old frame by its self. nothing more :)
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OHhhhhh . . . in that case the pricing is simple:

  • Shop rate: $75/hr
  • Minimum time = 2 hours (and I don't care if it takes 5 minutes)
  • "At what dollar figure do you want me to stop sweating and swearing over your treasure, and call you with a little more accurate estimate of time/money?"
The price is also dictated with a "YSJ"-fee base rate of $25/"J".


* "YSJ" = "You said just"
 
I was waiting for you to weigh in on this one, Baer.

:thumbsup:
 
If you charge per-hour, do you just do the repair and carry your time while the customer has no idea what the final cost will be?

I just tell em that my shop rate is $4,508 per hour and it would likely take me 47.25 minutes. Then we add on glue ($19.48) v-nails ($4.82 ea.) then un-fitting ($90), fitting ($90).... all in all most of my frame repairs fall between $92,081 and a quarter of a million.

Seriously, I just look at it and toss out a price. $30 is pretty well the minimum and $50+ for anything more exotic. I have gotten to where I unfit right at the design counter. I can't hardly justify a $30+ unfit charge for a job the customer can clearly see took less than a minute. When I can see both sides of the frame I can tell how long it will take me to clean up the mess. $30 - $40 is a rather typical charge.
 
Ya there is a $0.40 charge for that. I don't want to nickel and dime them.
 
My hourly rate $35.00 an hour.

I bill in 1/2 hour increments and try to give an accurate estimate while they're here.

If I realize its a complete piece of CARP I've been known to replace it with a look-alike frame and still make it come under budget.
 
Ylva said:
I don't understand how anyone could give a fixed price on something as involved as this.

And what about the risk factor? You break it while trying to fix it?
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The owner has given credit for frames that were damaged while trying to fix them, some were so carpy that you wouldn't be able to tell the difference and then some customers raised sand over damage that was already there........and so, the dilemma of doing these type jobs for so little!
 
i guess the 30 to 40 is what i charge all togther. fitting and re doign the frame. these days its hard to get a customer to actaully want to spend anything at all, and if they are cheap enough to bring me something messed up and wants me to fix it... i don't think they will be buying anything more expensive if or if i don't fix it. so i don't worry about it. i had one lady that wanted me to fix a frame, and had another picture she wanted me to nail paint stirrers...(sp?) to the side of it.... i couldn't fix her frame, and i never saw the crappy job that followed. i was happy.
 
Ylva said:
I don't understand how anyone could give a fixed price on something as involved as this.

And what about the risk factor? You break it while trying to fix it?
Click to expand...

Good question. I can give a fixed price because I'm the expert. I know what it will take to do the job. Many other industries do the same. You can't look at a frame and decide what it will cost to repair it? What about contractors who not only bid a job but promise in a certain time line?

The risk factor? "Anything can happen!" So far nothing has has happened. If it did I'd call the client and tell them that something happened and they can collect their remains.
 
The last place I was at, we told people we didn't fix frames at all. And most frames that people brought in were damaged so bad, They wouldn't even have looked that great or been stable enough had they been fixed. We were able to sell most people new frames instead. Better than a $20 sale! I think if you're going to fix them, you should charge way more and tell people its a labor intensive process. After all, your trying to match finishes, etc. Then price out a fairly inexpensive moulding and see if they'd rather pay a little more to get something that will definitely be nice. Either way, you're coming out a little more ahead.
 
Jay H is right! Anything can happen! What if you accidentally do more damage trying to fix the frame!? Then you have to replace it on you anyway. That's why we had the "no fix" policy.
 
There is a great possibility here that we maybe be talking apples and oranges here. Heck, we may be talking Apples, oranges, zuccini, grapes, walnuts, and Ferraris.

What one shop/framer may consider a small project, another may consider beyond salvage. I work in wood, do compo and carvings, and can mold parts, do slip splices, carry relining of a rabbet and all that..... but I hate plaster work and would rather not do water guilding just because its messy.

So, where I may estimate a scarf or slip splint and patch at $90/hr and quote 4 hours, for the same damage with plaster casting, I will start at $250/hr, quote 6-7 hours and sub it out to a framer conservator who just loves that carp.
And then there are those who may have no idea what I just talked about and think that breaking apart four corners, removing the nails, shave chopping and rejoining and Amaco waxing the corners is "restoration".

Ferraris and Parsnips.
 
reply and another question.

Bear, when it comes to something like that i just sell them a new frame... though your idea sounds more profitable :)

plus even though im in the DC area... people are REALLY cheap. selling people a frame for 100 dollars sometimes is WAY TOO MUCH. let alone 500 or more for fixing a old frame... not a chance.

most people when they come in with damaged art work and i tell them it cost a minimum of 100 dollars to have someone look at it and fix it, they usually turn around and walk out. sometimes they might get it framed anyways if they stick around long enough for me to explain i can at least keep it from fading a bit more.


speaking of that. how much do people tend to mark up cheap frames... cause i get a hard look sometimes when my cheapest framing job comes up over 50 dollars. frame glass fitting. you can email me if you dont' want people to see. and im talking frames that are like 1 - 1.50 a foot. i know its a sign of the times... so im not worring about it, but it happens with old people and more and more with younger people. when they say cheap. they really do mean cheap these days. pull out anything bigger than they rae thinking, and they get a bit mad. im trying to figure out ways to get people in the door and stay with times being a little harder than i am used to. cant' send them all away.
 
ToniaK said:
We were able to sell most people new frames instead. Better than a $20 sale! I think if you're going to fix them, you should charge way more and tell people its a labor intensive process....price out a fairly inexpensive moulding and see if they'd rather pay a little more to get something that will definitely be nice.
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ToniaK said:
What if you accidentally do more damage trying to fix the frame!? Then you have to replace it on you anyway. That's why we had the "no fix" policy.
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If the frame isn't anything exotic, and you can tell the second you look, then tearing it down and trimming the corners and rejoining it isn't rocket surgery.

Why would I have to replace it if it fell apart? I wouldn't. Again I guess it's one of the really great parts of being in business for myself.

I'm asked to rejoin maybe 10 - 20 frames a year. It's an uncommon event so radical policies one way or another just doesn't seem warranted. Still if it's falling apart and won't rejoin or is the wrong size to begin with or a "fairly inexpensive moulding" is what is really needed, I can (and have) refused the work and recommended another option.

Most of the time it's no big deal. Not only is it a pretty good use of my time there is something really fun about taking in a filthy busted mess of a project and handing over a tight, cleaned up, ready to hang framed package.

I suspect that type of service leaves you with a customer much more satisfied than "nope, can't, won't, haven't ever, will never, let me sell you a new one because that's our policy" type of service. That's exactly how every large corporation will respond. I think it a good thing to separate ourselves from that anytime it makes sense to do so.

I remember back when I used to think that a frame shop mostly put new frames around prints and photos. I suspect that is barely half of what I do. Mat and shrink, remats, refits, replace glass, shadow boxes, weird shaped mirrors, and yes repair frames seems to be as common as framing a print.
 
Puppiesonacid said:
plus even though im in the DC area... people are REALLY cheap. selling people a frame for 100 dollars sometimes is WAY TOO MUCH. let alone 500 or more for fixing a old frame... not a chance.
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Don't be fooled. This is the trend everywhere. I don't think that is specific to your area. There have been some studies, that I have long missplaced, that suggested that the typical purchase at a frame shop is well south of $200.

The g does have a few shops that really do break through that trend. Combined with some fishing stories you will get a false sense for what type of framing the typical shop is selling. The reality is that a $100-$200 is right down the fairway according to my experience, conversations with shops, and the stats. Don't be enamored by $500 frame repairs or lites of glass that is only "a couple of hundred dollars". I'm not suggesting that doesn't happen it's just far far from "typical".
 
Baer Charlton said:
... breaking apart four corners, removing the nails, shave chopping and rejoining and Amaco waxing the corners is "restoration".

Ferraris and Parsnips.
Click to expand...

Most of the repair work I do is Parsnips. I just totalled how much work like this I did since June and it totaled
$ 832.00 for frame repair and an additional $ 1806.00 for further work on these jobs such as matting, glass, mounting, fitting, etc. That tallies up to $ 2638.00 which pays for more than three months rent for me in my little one man shop.

The figures above don't even count the glass replacement work where someone just busted the glass and needs replacement.

I had a three week period in July where I had no new custom work at all except for a few small jobs and would've had practically nothing going on if I didn't have repair work.

For these types of jobs I don't use the phrase "restoration". It's simply tear apart, cut down, re-miter, sand, stain or refinish, touch up and slap back together.

The more down and dirty repair work you do the quicker you can do it and the easier it is. I never promise anything other than I can make it look "good" again and warn the customer I won't be liable if the thing falls apart in my hands. I don't try to match finishes exactly and just go at it to make it look good.

Most of this work is taken in with no time line and I do it when I have the time and feel like doing it. I have probably 15-20 pieces needing this type of work in-house right now. It fills in the gaps.

People are appreciative and I can't recall a single customer that wasn't happy with the results. Additionally, since few shops will do this work, I become that person's framer-of-choice when they need custom work done.
 
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