Pre-Glueing Stacked Frames?

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Shayla

Shayla

WOW Framer
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When making a stacked frame, we usually join the frames separately, then
put them together and pin-nail into a stack. In the past, with fillets, I've glued
them in a vise, then glued the joined fillet into the frame. I read on here some
time ago about framers gluing the fillet sticks to the frame legs and then joining
that pre-glued combination, and we're practicing that to see if we want to change
methods. It got me to thinking about whether anyone does the same for stacked
frames. I'm good at shimming between stacks to make sure it's even all the way
around, but certain design elements have led me to avoid certain combinations.
For example, a line on the inside frame that would show just inside the lip in an
awkward way. If it works to glue the frame legs together prior to cutting, then
with no gap, it would broaden my choice of design options.

Do any of you do this?
 
shayla said:
Do any of you do this?
Click to expand...

I've never thought of doing this, and now that I think of it I don't think I ever will. The reason has to do with v-nailing all of the various mouldings. Except in rare instances when frames are stacked the bottoms of the different mouldings end up at different heights. Since I do my joining in a V-nailer, I'd only be able to get V-nails into the bottom-most moulding; the others will be raised up off the bed and near impossible to V-nail. Joining the frames separately lets me get nice solid joints in each frame.

I do pre-glue (well, fillet-tape) fillets into frames and cut/join them as a unit. That's because I don't consider the fillet to be a structural element and so don't worry about joining it other than with a little glue to keep it from moving.
 
I preglue the stacked moulding, then cut and join, but I use the underpinner for the bottom moulding and I pin the top. Has always worked well for me.
 
After starting this thread I mentioned my bright idea to my hubby, and this was his first comment.
'How would you handle the different depths with the v-nailer?' :icon19:

It still seems like an interesting idea.

As long as we're here, for any of you who glue your fillets into the frame before joining,
how do you fasten the two together to dry? When gluing a prejoined fillet into a frame,
I put it in with the glue, then shoot fletcher points that go across the back of the fillet,
sticking into side of the rabbet. Then, to keep it tight the other direction, I keep the
frame face down on the table, shoot fletcher points into the back of it at points corresponding
with the placement of the points down below, and wrap rubber bands around the frame,
anchoring at those standing up points. We tried the same thing when gluing the fillet
to the frame prior to shopping, but the pressure must have been off, as it tipped slightly
in the frame, so the corners didn't come together properly once cut. I'm thinking that
the rubber bands put too much pressure pulling up, so am going to stop that, but what
else is better? Just clamps? If so, which ones do you use? Thanks for any helpful input.
 
I do a lot of this. :smiley:

One drawback with pre-gluing a stack you lose a lot of the innermost moulding. On a wideish frame, there are situations where you can lose about 2 feet of the innermost moulding per frame.

I do agree that cutting frames to fit inside one another isn't quite as simple as it seems. I tend to work from the constant differential between the long side and the short. But even doing this and no matter how careful your cutting, you can drift off the mark. For instance, if you are working outside-in, you can measure the inside of a frame - cut rails to fit inside with a tiny clearance - join inner frame - try it for fit - bit tight on one side. It's weird but it happens.

If I'm doing big stacked frames for canvases I usually use a bevelled liner. My method is to cut the liner first and make sure it fits the canvas nicely. Then stash the canvas away safely and fit the rest of the frame to the liner - working from the outside usually. Some frames are combinations of three mouldings. Four sometimes. If it ends up with the liner a bit tight you can plane a bit off. If it's too sloppy you can insert some shims. But as long as the difference between all the longs and shorts remains the same you can get away with it. :icon19:
 
I do sometimes glue the fillet into the primary frame in advance of the cutting and joining.
I do not glue my stacked mouldings together prior to assembly since I sometimes ad mat board or foam board shims to the outside of the inner frame so more of it shows (depends s lot on the pattern, etc.)
I use binder clips with mat board pads on the frame surface to hold the fillets in place when I can. The frame point method works too. I've used stretch film, strips of bicycle inner tubes, rubber bands, clothes pins...whatever it takes. With pre-drilling, you can also toenail the fillet into the frame.
 
I find it much tidier and quicker to glue the fillet into the frame before cutting it. I've bought many small 'clamp clips'-not sure what they're called :) they work on the same principle as an old fashioned clothes peg.
 
I've tried pre-glueing fillets to the frame, I've never tried pre-glueing a stacked moulding project.

I don't see a big time savings when it comes to stacked moulding. Moulding is easy, fillets are fussy.

With fillets attached to frames I was never happy with the final fit. The frame would fit fine but for some reason the inside fillet would be open. ( just a hairs breath). I stopped trying after a couple of attempts.

Doug
 
Doug, that's the same problem we had when we tried. I thought it must be that the fillet wasn't sitting at a 90 degree angle to the rabbet on all sticks, causing the final gap problem. For those of you who put pre-joined fillets into your finished frames, do you use glue or fillet tape? I've always used glue, but because the backs of fillets are so close in size to the rabbet width of most frames, it sometimes leaves no 'gap' room between the two for the glue. Either that or, even when care is used, the glue wants to squish out the front and then has to be cleaned up. Do you ever rip down or sand the backs of fillets to give more wiggle room there? It seems like ripping down such a thin, flopsy little stick would be difficult.
 
I don't often put fillets in frames. But if I am doing it purely for cosmetic purposes rather than to extend the rabbet width, I do them like this.....

Run double-stick tape along the fillet. Stick to frame rabbet. Then get a piece of square timber and stick it on top of the fillet. I use the 'builder's' type glue that comes in pump cartridges. The non-solvented sort. This glue is thicker than pva, so fill any gaps. This filler piece locks the fillet firmly in place and has the additional benefit of deepening the rabbet as much as you need.
 
heh heh..... :icon21:
 
As Doug stated, the few times that I've tried pre-glueing filets to the frame... I wasn't pleased with the finished product.

I prefer to join the filet and attach it to the frame with extra strength ATG... I don't like the mess that glue makes!
Plus, with using ATG... if I'm not pleased with the finished product I can't easily undo!

I've never pre=glued a stacked frame.





Z
 
I'd be concerned that any kind of tape might give way after a few decades, so always
though that glue was better. Will fillet tape really last for ages?

This thread has me thinking about how, for people like Prospero and Bron, they have
to clamp the wood together any time they're making a moulding out of stacked pieces of
wood. Maybe I should go wandering over to Lee Valley tools and see what they've got.
I also like the idea of using matboard pieces to protect the moulding surface from
pokey binder clip edges, as has been mentioned.
 
As for the tape, I don't think you have to fret too much about it's longevity. It's really just to hold things together while you get the frame assembled. Once every thing is together it would stay put without any gluing/taping.

One thing about gluing sections together is that they cannot be separated again. If you ever get a ding on any part you can always replace just that part. This point is more important with factory-finished mouldings. When I am building from plain timber up, I usually glue the entire issue so it's one big moulding. I have had (other peeps) frames in for repair where it would have been be a simple job to take out a damaged liner and swap it for a new one. But more often than not everything is glued together which means the frame is a total write-off.
Something worth pondering before you reach for the glue-pot. :popc:


Clamps.

I hardly ever use them. Mouldings tend to be curvy shapes which makes clamps difficult to use in most cases. One thing that is very useful is the good old packaging film. It moulds itself to irregular shapes and with a bit of application you can get a lot of pressure on just where you need it.
Also great for bundling offcuts and wotnot. No workshop should be without it. :smiley:
 
never do it. Less likes the idea of easily getting them apart if necessary.
 
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