PPFA - Where would I be without it???

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We just had the 2nd anniversary of our frame shop and were looking at all business relationships that have developed over that time. Most of our business relationships are important to us, but some are more significant or special than others. We came up with a list that without the special relationship, our business would not be where it is today.

The list is comprised of the PPFA, one individual, 3 vendors and our co-employer/benefit organization.

Here is the list of reasons that the PPFA is on that list......

1. I have always been a believer in trade organizations. For me, picture framing is no exception.... thus PPFA.

2. The invoices written because of the knowledge gained from 2 years participation with the PPFA Hitchhiker has been enough to pay for over 50 years worth of dues.

3. The money saved on insurance premiums due to PPFA member benefits has been enough to pay for 9 additional years worth of dues.

4. The invoices written because of the PPFA & CPF logo being in our yellow page ad has been enough to pay for 8 to 10 years worth of dues... We know this because of specific comments by customers. Who knows about the customers who did not make comments.

5. The invoices written because of PPFA provided ad slicks used in newspaper ads, both with and without the CPF logo, has been enough to pay for 4 years worth of dues. We had customers actually bring the ads with them. The local newspaper is equally impressed with the quality of the ad slicks.

6. Experience gained from participation in PPFA sponsored framing competitions has taught us the importance of paying attention to minute detail as well as learning many new ideas.

7. Knowledge gained from PPFA sponsored training seminars has worked to help us improve our designs. We find ourselves selling down rather than selling up.... and we did use LJ Pine River 924114... the largest profile of the line. Yep, it's expensive.... but it is really difficult to find clear pine.... We haven't found a way to put a dollar amount on this bullet item.... average framing invoice has risen from $140.43 to $298.97 over the last 2 years. We like to think that we are working smarter.... not harder.

Our conclusion..... add up the years worth of dues that being a member has done for us and we can't see a reason why we would not want to be a PPFA member. If you add the amount that we have paid in dues and the amount that we paid to earn two CPF designations (Kathleen & I), that figure is many times less than the sales that can be attributed to being a member. For us, it's a no brainer!!! Another business network to which we belong has a saying regarding referals.... "Givers gain". Well, all we have "given" to the PPFA thus far is 2 years worth of dues and moral support. We have "gained" many times that in the dollar amount of invoices written. We have "gained" knowledge that you can't place a dollar value. Granted, the knowledge can't be gained by everyone, because some framers already know it all. Just ask them, they'll tell you. Maybe those who already know it all need to join so that they can give the knowledge they have and gain the satisfaction that they helped someone else learn from their experiences.

Rick Bergeron - CPFcm
Coeur d'Alene, ID

[This message has been edited by Frugal Framer (edited June 17, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Frugal Framer (edited June 18, 2001).]
 
I just started my 26th year in business. I can attribute my success to many things, but sadly, the PPFA is not among them. I have never been a member and I'm sure I never will be.
The PPFA is a organization with good intentions I'm sure, it's just not for me.
If your just starting out in the business it might be good for you, who knows? It didn't make any difference to my business.

John
 
John : I just read your respose to the Frugal framers post. i must say that after 26 years you probly can pretty much make it on your own. However don't you think that frugal and others like him/her beneift from associations like the PPFA and YES TFG .In fact isn't that why you and other 26 year vets participate ? So I guess there is benefits in belonging to Trade organizations and maybe there is even benefits in belonging to more than one. Just think if one doesn't have what you need you can check out the other,or maybe you can ask another vet who only gets benefit from one.
I once was enrolled in a course given by Franklin- Covey group .The course was called "Seven Habits Of HIGHLY sucessful People" (Please check it out). In it (paraphraseing ) the ultimate goal of HIGHLY sucessful people is INTERDEPENDANCE. It isn't independance ,co-dependance ,Or dependance but INTERdependance. the reason is that we all bring something to the table and the Guy/Girl with the most sources to draw on has the best chance of being sucessful and if we all contribute to each other we raise the bar immesurabley and we ALL benefit. I think they call it "The Only Real Win/Win Situation" and if I'm not mistaken the worst scenario is the Isolationist.You know the guy who can't benefit from others and can do it all on his own.I am glad to say I am a Member in the PPFA ,The Framer's Grumble,iam looking into private groups also and will listen to any Framer that has the time to listen to me. I also look deeply into any organization that offers me a chance to further my craft ,and although many of the PPFA's pirks aren't for me I grately appreciate those that I can use and I firmly believe that all others should also as well as availing themselves of the Education and networking that is offered. Guys like me can't afford to let the industry get too far ahead of me and I have a lot I need.
But I'm glad there are guys like you who share there 26 years and I only wish PPFA members could benefit also.
Charles BUDDY Drago CPF(cm)1988

[This message has been edited by BUDDY (edited June 17, 2001).]
 
Buddy-Rick and you are some of the reasons that I have changed my mind about PPFA. Having spent a fair amount of time on criticism, it was obvious I was part of the problem. We've only been in this trade for 17 years, and one thing I now realize is that it's way too easy to complain; so much harder to change for the better. I've never been smart enough to take the easy way out.

I also got the Covey program on tape as a gift. I'm sure with a little effort I could find a lot of things wrong with the concept; things that don't really apply to me or things that I think I have a better approach. But I preferred to take a "What can I learn from this" approach. It made all the difference in the world.

I'm taking the same view of the PPFA and the Trade Mags. If nothing else, I'm no worse than I am right now.
 
Buddy, thank's for the kind words. I am a member of The Grumble, I share my thoughts as often as I have time for. I do not have to pay for the privilege of doing this on The Grumble.

I did not say PPFA is a bad organization to belong to, I just said it wasn't for me.

The thing I like about The Grumble is, you can grumble, you don't have to get in lockstep with all the other members way of thinking.
For the most part we seem to respect independent thought and ideas on The Grumble.
We do have one member who can not mentally handle that idea very well but overall I have found Grumblers to be a totally cool lot of people.

John
 
Originally posted by JRB:
"...I have never been a member and I'm sure I never will be...it's just not for me...
If your just starting out in the business it might be good for you, who knows? It didn't make any difference to my business."

But John, having never been a member, how could you know what you might have missed? It is quite possible -- I dare say likely -- that PPFA membership would have helped your business.

You might have gotten small insights that would have added a few percentage points to your bottom line every year. Or PPFA might have helped you cope with a difficult business situation. Or, if you're sure you've found all the tricks you need, maybe PPFA membership would have brought them to you sooner or cheaper than learning from trial & error.

PPFA "didn't make any difference" to your business because you never gave it a chance. Likewise, if you never joined your local Chamber of Commerce, or the Better Business Bureau, or NFIB, they would not make any difference to your business, either.

That doesn't make you any less successful, of course. The fact that you've been at it all these years hints that you have done well. Frank Sinatra's rendition of "I did it My Way" comes to mind.

Call me chicken, but I want all the help I can get to run my business. I've been a framer for 13 years, and I can think of ways PPFA membership has helped me almost every year. And my membership is still helping -- both directly and indirectly.

PPFA isn't perfect, but it's a worthy contributor year after year to the success of my business. I participate because I care more about the potential benefit, than any lack of it.

[This message has been edited by Jim Miller (edited June 17, 2001).]
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John, As a framer and small business owner who has survived 26 years you could offer a lot to others in the business. Maybe the approach isn't what can PPFA do for me, but rather, what can I offer as a successful business person to PPFA. Join us at a convention and share your knowledge. If you don't / won't offer us your insight how can we as framers improve the industry?
Commentary in the Grumble is barely touching the surface and grossly inadequate.
Just my opinion.
 
I like the " I did it my way " analogy the best.
I have never joined any business organizations or trade groups.

On a previous thread I used sailboats as an analogy. The summarization was, it's not the destination that matters all that much, it's the ride.

I have always admired people who go it alone, there seems to be a lot of them on The Grumble.

One of the great adventures of starting a business from nothing, with nothing ( I started with a total of $250.00 ) is the pleasure you get from facing the daily problems and solving them successfully. It's a lot like solving puzzles, it feels good when you can do it by yourself. I never could understand a person who loves doing crossword puzzles, yet rarely put's a word in without asking for help. " Any one know a three letter word for house pet that likes to catch mice?"

When I was younger I used to love to take off in my sailboat at night and just head straight out to sea. A few miles out I would balance and trim her so she was sailing herself, then I would go to bed for the night.
There is nothing quite like waking up in the morning and feeling the movement of the boat, the sounds of the waves against the hull. Getting out of bed and going up on deck to the morning sun and nothing but ocean in all directions, then having coffee, sailing for a few hours, enjoying your lot in life then getting yourself home safely.
Every time I did that it wasn't always that idyllic setting I just described. Sometimes when I got on deck the only thing I saw was fog in all directions. One time I woke up and I was in the middle of a storm and it was still pitch black out. I always found my way home, and I wouldn't trade those adventures out there, by myself, for anything.
I feel the same about my business, I've weathered a lot over the years and my sailing, for the time being, is smooth. The real satisfaction is going it alone and pulling it off. If I had to do it all over, The changes I would make would be very subtle, I would be afraid of screwing up the outcome that I now enjoy.

John
 
John (JRB),

Buddy and Greg are very much correct in their "You get what you contribute" attitude.........I too, have always believed in this concept.

And to illustrate this point, since you are so "High" on TFG, consider the effectiveness of this "Mini-trade association". Granted it's dues are the price of a computer and your time, but it works Because, you and others participate. Would you like to see a similar "Free" trade association that has not made it? Go visit FrameDex......It's GONE! Why, because framers didn't support it with postings, responses and dialogue.

Now, granted PPFA costs you a bit more in dues, but in the big scheme of things, it's a minimal amount. Most importantly it's success is also measured by it's contributing members and what they bring to the table.

Respectfully,

John

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The Frame Workshop of Appleton, Inc.
www.theframeworkshop.com
Appleton, Wisconsin
jerserwi@aol.com
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I was on Framedex for a long time, the reason it's gone is because whoever was running it would let it sit for weeks when there was a problem. Bill seems to correct problems within days at the most.

The reason I prefer The Grumble is there is no meetings, nobody trying to organize it, nobody trying to sell me something, nobody volunteering me to do jobs I don't have time to do. Just a bunch of real nice people in the same industry I'm in, interacting with me and not asking me to join anything or do anything for them except communicate with them.
I get to do these things on my schedule, not theirs.
The Grumble just works for me, if there was a fee to be a member I would pay it.

Please take note that PPFA members can join this club and enjoy internet conversations with absolutly no strings attached. Also take note that members of The Grumble are not welcome to join in on PPFA internet sponsored conversations unless they join PPFA. Why is that?

John
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JRB:
The reason I prefer The Grumble is there is no meetings, nobody trying to organize it, nobody trying to sell me something, nobody volunteering me to do jobs I don't have time to do. Just a bunch of real nice people in the same industry I'm in...

The Grumble just works for me, if there was a fee to be a member I would pay it.

John<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

John and Everyone else,
Send a check for what you can afford to Framer. He's the unsung hero of "The Grumble" and it must be expensive to keep this up and running.


------------------
curlyframer, CPF
 
curly, Thanks for the suggestion. I put a check in the mail today.
Your right, a fellow has to put his money where his mouth is.

John
 
Congratulations. You have just become a member of the Birthday Club.
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Wow! First I join The Grumble and now it's The Birthday Club. It could be possible I'm a joiner after all.
.......nah.

John
 
Thanks for your input to date. Your sailing story makes your position crystal clear. I absolutely don't agree with it. My days with a Mountain Rescue organization in Colorado will attest to my fundmental belief in the strength of teamwork and the folly of going it alone. It is a huge mistake to believe your going it solo has no ramifications to anyone but yourself. Your customers, suppliers, friends, family, and casual neighbors may think differently. But thanks for the analogy of a sailor on the open seas. It makes for a colorful story.
 
Greg, you are correct, mountaineering is not an undertaking that should be done alone. Sailing out to sea alone is also foolhardy, like I said, I was much younger. I enjoyed doing it but I wouldn't recommend it.

I have been in organizations that required extensive team work to accomplish the mission.
I also done things that required operating alone for short periods. My brother was a diver, you don't do that alone either.

I run my business like any other framing business. The fact that I do not belong to any business or trade associations has never had an effect on my customers, suppliers, friends, family and casual neighbors.
My family knows full well my background and has total confidence in my abilities, as do I.

Why is it that people who belong to organizations actually get offended at any body that does not care to join them and be just like they are? I do not understand this. We are all in the same industry, I am not your enemy. If you came to me for help, you would get it. I would not ask you what your affiliations where before I offered it.

Are you saying that there has never been a business failure with members of PPFA? Are the only possible failures non members?

When you where in Mountain Rescue did you refuse to help people that were not members of the Boy Scouts at some time in their lives?

The only thing I did on this thread was say I didn't care to join PPFA. I do not regard PPFA members as a threat to my way of life, I hope they are not threatened by independents such as myself. Judging from the responses it makes me wonder.

This whole thread is a great example of why I do not wish to join PPFA. If your are not in lockstep with the other members way of thinking, you will get bullied until you get in line.

Using The Grumble to recruit new members is fine with me. I know you will have trouble with this concept, but, there are some people that do NOT want to join, please respect their position.

John
 
Y'all that are pushing the PPFA sound like the folks that come around on Saturday mornings and try to hand out the WatchTower to get you to join their church. Some of you may be members of that church also. But everyone has a right or reason to their opinion. Why try to force it down a person's throat? We are all over 18 years of age and can make opinions based on what works for us. If you want to join PPFA...sign up immediately! If you are already a member and you want to get out...get out! If you don't want to join...don't join. What's the big deal here?
 
One thing that has not been mentioned is the dividend that members receive on their Worker's Comp. premiums if they use the PPFA plan. Rates are very competitive, plus the DIVIDEND more than offsets my membership dues. I am sure that me membership is saving me THOUSANDS (after I deduct the yearly PPFA dues.)
 
Originally posted by Janet L:
"Y'all that are pushing the PPFA sound like the folks that come around...to get you to join their church...If you don't want to join...don't join. What's the big deal here?"

You're right, Janet. There's no big deal. PPFA is not for everyone.

I understand your analogy, and maybe PPFA members' enthusiasm seems overzealous & out of place to some.

Still, I see a distinction between making a purely idealogical choice about religion, and making sound business decisions.

There are proven, solid reasons to participate in an industry trade association. Reasons that translate into business advantages.

Most framers -- with some exceptions -- who claim that a trade association has nothing to offer them are probably misunderstanding what the trade association is, and what it can do for business.

It's not idealogy. It's business.
Click to expand...
 
I have been a picture framer since 1964. I have owned my own framing business since 1976. This is the first time I have ever heard about any benefits from belonging to a trade organization. I have never been approached about it from any one, even at trade shows. I also have never heard of the watchtower, even when I stay at home on Saturdays. I fellow called me the other day and is making me a partner in the new tole Brooklyn bridge. Soon I will have enough money from my share of toles to take advantage of that beach front resort in Arizona, I want to buy a time share in it.
I know, I know, your all jealous of my good fortune, but hang in there, it could happen to you too.
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smile.gif
smile.gif


John
 
<blockquote>Please take note that PPFA members can join this club and enjoy internet conversations with absolutly no strings attached. Also take note that members of The Grumble are not welcome to join in on PPFA internet sponsored conversations unless they join PPFA. Why is that?</blockquote>

The simple reason is that I wanted a list to participate in that had some control over the level of "framer" participating.

My previous experience was with a "framing list" that had more "customers" than framers posting questions and in some cases calling the real framers crooks.

Since I was and am a member of PPFA, an alliance that allowed me to use their membership base as a qualifier and gave them something to offer members made sense.

That is not to say that there are not quality framers in legitimate businesses that are not PPFA members, but it is the way that I felt I could best achieve my goal. And much easier than having people mail me business cards and letter head to prove their connection to the industry.

And, like Framer, I also run the Online Exchange on my own both physically and financially. So I guess I can make the rules too. Framer choose this format and I choose mine.

And both The Grumble and the Online Exchange serve their intended purpose well.

Regards,

Merrill E. Grayson, CPF
merrill@customframer.com
www.customframer.com
 
ROFL or ROLF!;:..especially the beach front in AZ. Now I can think of only one thing that might compare to being alone on a sail boat with nothing but water and that is the sunset in the baren, to some, areas of South Dakota.

Thanks for joining the birthday club. A few of us have been celebrating framers birthday November 1st for a few years now, unfortunately it has been only a few and that is the reason for the ad banner which he has managed tastely.

Thanks again framer.

[This message has been edited by JPete (edited June 19, 2001).]
 
John et al:
I am very sorry but when I originally posted my comments to John I was on my way to a 3 day holiday on the coast of Missippi for Father's day ,Marie's Birthday ,and our 35th anniversery. So I didn't stir the pot and walk away.
I love all the comments and annalogies but I assure you that a conflict was the least of my intentions. I am sure that in every group their are self rightieous snobs but there are an awful lot of others that aren't.
The comparison to Saturday morning door crashers is one of the poorest annalogies for what PPFA/TFG members are attempting.What we want is to get both groups the best that both have to offer. As Merrill pointed out there are some good reasons for membership fees.Also unfortuneately some of US don't realize that despite how smoothly some things rin nothing is without coast and required work ask Framer and Merrill as well as the PPFA. I'll tell you more about other annalogies but my work calls at the moment.
 
I 'm Back. Let's see where did I leave off when that annoying customer came in the door?LOL
First John bing in the PPFA doesn't require anyone to walk in a "Lock step" if you don't beleve it just check what others think of my approach.I don't run my shop like anyone else but I do take what others offer and modifie it to suit me,am I right Rob Markoff?
I don't want to be scraligious but the only perfect person was God and look at what we did to HIm.
John your sailing annalogy shows you are definatly a risk taker ,but you refuse to take a risk on something that may benefit youand other framers.Why not?If you have been all alone you know what perils that can bring.And even though you like the solitude wouldn't you go out to save another lost inexperienced sailor? Even though he got lost on the same sea whose solitude you bask in?And would there be anyone better to do it?
Howevr even when you save him if you don't teach him the sailing tecniques you used won't he get lost again?Better yet you say that you rvel in the knowledge that you succeded although all alone. Wouldn't it be an even bigger high to know that you can do what others wish they could do?
certainly you don't want eveyone to stay off the waterso only you can sail.Isn't the real thrill being better than all the rest or even the best?
john Ranes says that we get what we contribute.Well in the not too distant past I doubted that,but things do and HAVE changed.However I wasn't sure of this till I checked it out ffor myself.I now see and even bigger change on the horizon. isee an qrganizationthat needs and is looking for new headings.I for one hope that when we set for these headings we are all rowing together,with the best navigators available.I also hope that none of the seamen are telling of make belive monsters.
John you are a joiner ,you have said so yourself.it's justthat you need to see the benifit of your courseand unfortueately youve not been to see the PPFA yet.
greg tells us that as a rescuer he kniows the benifit of team work. Well ,help me Bob,I think one of the things Mr. Covey states clearly is "No man is an island' .therefoe no one is out there all alone.If jJohn had got in trouble while sailing a LOt of peopel would havegone after him just as we all should.
well john you are perfectly correct when you say there is nothing wrong with not joining but the converse is true also .In fact there is a lot of good that can be derived from joiningAnd I and others hope we can share some or all of the good.But the choice is yours.
Back to the religios thing .A very close friend of mine that was a Catholic priest once told me about a group he was heading that others thought they were Catholic Eltest and as suuch looked down their noises at all other Catholics.However he said this wasn't true that what he taught was that they had somthing great to share, something that made Catholism even better and he wanted to share it with everyone he could.But the choice was theirsso it is with us. And now that I have stopped preaching I promise never to knock on yall's door again .Until you call.
i hope this is taken in jest but with a real grain of salt. We are all in this together.
Buddy
Maybe I'd have made a good Preacvher what do you think? ROTFLOL
John and Bob sorry I waited so long but THANK YOU both for your kind words i hope you haven't changed your mind now.


[This message has been edited by BUDDY (edited June 20, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by BUDDY (edited June 20, 2001).]
 
I have been on both sides of this issue. I was a member of the PPFA when I first went into business, and dropped out after a couple of years. There was no local chapter, and I felt I was getting nothing out of it. A little over a year ago, I thought I would like to try the framing competition. I had to be a member to compete, so I re-joined. I decided that since I was paying the dues, I might as well make the most of it. To begin with, I looked into the Workman's Comp insurance and saved myself several hundred dollars by using the PPFA insurance. We now have a very active New England chapter, and I have been able to attend two meetings. I found the guest speakers very interesting, informative, and I learned something from each I could use in my business. It is also nice to be able to meet others in the business on a non-competitive basis face-to-face. The Grumble is great, but I like dealing with people one-on-one. Also, since I am a CPF, I was invited to attend judging seminar where Chris Pascke (sp?) was the guest speaker. That seminar helpled me ALOT with my competition entry, and I enjoyed learning about the process of judging. I guess it's like anything, you only get out of something what you put into it. I didn't join thinking membership would get me more business. I took the time to use my membership, and I found that I enjoyed my first year, and am looking forward to the second.
 
This isn't really a reply, but a question. This seemed the most logical place to ask. I am wondering if anyone knows where to get a set of used books to study for the PPF exam, either borrow or purchase. I worked in a frame shop for a year and loved it. I felt I had finally found my calling. However, the pay isn't enough, I make more as a secretary here at the railroad. I do framing on the side at home, just for friends and family. I would like to become certified and actually promote my work and bring in some business. (The town I live in is too small to actually have a storefront). Any assistance would be appreciated! Thanks.
 
I suggest you buy the books and keep them. After 12 years, I still refer to those books. Most of them are still current.

My library of framing, conservation & preservation books has grown steadily over the years, but it all started with the recommended books for CPF study.
 
Greg, I had a feeling that you where suggesting I was embellishing the truth.
I answered you by agreeing that sailing by yourself was foolhardy.
I have since changed my mind after talking to several sailing friends and discovered people do it all the time. They have world class solo sailboat races, some that include traversing your way around the world. Sailing off San Diego is pretty safe, there are no islands or land masses to bump into, just ocean. Navigating back is also a lot easier than land navigation, all you have to do is head east. You will see or hear land as you approach it. In the fog you listen for the foghorns. Each foghorn pattern is listed on your charts, the pattern tells you where you are. Each channel entrance has a marker buoy that has a distinct sound, bells, whistles, etc.
Buoy #1 at the mouth of San Diego Bay is called the whistler, it makes a loud, rather spooky moaning noise. When you can get close enough to get a visual fix on it, in the fog that can mean a few feet, You can chart your way into the bay.

Land navigation is much more complex and requires extensive experience to learn how to do it. Classroom work makes it seam easy until you get out in the field. Without a lot of experience learning to read contours and the lay of the land as well as understanding compass work and compensating for the declination diagram, most folks will end up lost. Large groups of people can end up lost as easily as can one person. How many rescues did you make where there was a group of people lost?
Just because your a member of an organization does not necessarily mean you are going to succeed or survive, it just's helps to know your not alone, if your of that constitution.

John
 
I would love to be a member of the PPFA. Is it for US framers only? Is there an International branch?
I sent an email months ago, but received no reply from them about it. I am in Australia, and I am an associate framer (hopefully soon to be member) of the PFGV here. I am a committee member, in charge of new memberships/enquiries. We (the Picture Framers Guild of Victoria) are trying to become involved with other reputable organizations worldwide. Our President, John Daley, is currently in discussions with the UK, and FACTs has already set up an Australian meeting room for us.
Any info would be much appreciated.
 
HI John, Rarely were individuals or groups "lost." We usually responded to those bruised and battered by the elements because of a lack of experience or preparation. Some fun examples, people hiking in Tennis shoes breaking their ankle, taking short cuts down a rock face and getting stuck on a ledge, comming face to face with a porcupine, skiing out of bounds by themselves after a fresh snow. All stupid mistakes that could have been prevented with adequate preparation, training, and experience. Kind of like picture framing or any other profession. Education is fundamental! A lot of artwork would still be around and not destroyed by framers if they had learned(and continue to learn) proper techniques from various sources including those offered thru PPFA. It (PPFA) is a trade association,one of the only ones in our field, and for that reason should be supported. I consider the "Benefit Services" to be gravy on my meat and potatos. Just food for thought.
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Greg, that was truly a great answer, good for you. You are a person who can think it through.

Best regards,

John
 
I've been watching this stream for awhile, and I think I'll comment.

I can see where both of you are coming from.
We (the frame gallery where I'm employed) are NOT members of the PPFA, and have no desire to be. We are extremely successful, and frame with the utmost quality of materials. I believe that if you are not experianced, or have no one to train you properly, being a member of the PPFA would benefit you. You would learn things that you didn't know, and had no one to teach you.

I however was trained by 3 people who have been in the framing industry all of their working lives. I'm fortunate for that. It's like being an apprentice to a master craftsman. There are people and have always been who learn from those who came before them... Listen to your elders!

We are not members because we feel it's not neccessary to be, that's just us, but I wouldn't tell anyone they should or shouldn't be.

Just my thoughts,
Egon
 
Egon expresses great thoughts about theirr situation. Membership isn't for everyone. Some people prefer to go it alone. It's an individual decision; and everybody's decision should be respected. So often, when a discussion becomes inflammed, the first two casualties are truth and courtesy. Their situation handles those easily. Their biz should be applauded for it's standard of excellence and continuing education of it's staff.

But, as newcomer to the pro-assn side, I see the need for a more vibrant, more dynamic trade assn that can help the brand new kids on the block as well as we old-timers that know it all. I've got to tell everyone that in my recent contacts with PPFA, these people are committed to finding ways to improve this orgn. for all of us. Even if you don't join (and help), there will probably be a benefit created by the effort of others. I doubt if anyone will turn their noses down at you if you don't join (or help), but you will probably benefit in some form.

I really think this might be a very interesting and exciting time. I prefer to be on board for the ride. Remember that old saw about Not asking what your trade can do for you, ask what you can do for your trade? Maybe if you're not interested in joining (or helping) maybe the best help would be to lower the rhetoric, and allow those interested in trying to do so without putting out verbal fires.

It really is a choice issue. If you don't want to be part of a solution, please don't be part of the problem. At the least, everyone will probably do no worse than now, and it won't have cost them a dime or any effort.
 
Are you saying people who are not members of PPFA are a problem?

Are you saying that people who don't belong to PPFA should keep their opinions to themselves?

Are you saying the only voice that should be heard is that of PPFA members?

At least you didn't pull the old Bob Carter favorite " let's end this now" it does, however, sound like it all the same.

Bob I think it's wonderful that you joined PPFA and I think you will fit right in with them. I think your opinions will not be challenged by the membership. I can already see a difference in your posts. You seem much happier than you where before joining.

Try not to get The Grumble confused with the PPFA forum, you will just get all frustrated again. Some people on The Grumble, you see, might have an opinion that does not agree with yours 100%.

best of luck to you,

John
 
John I can't help but wonder how we both have read Bob's comments and have seemingly come away with completely different understandings. I also didn't get any negative inferences from Bob about non PPFA memebrs. Could it just be that we see in the comments of others what we do ourselves?

In fact that is exactly what most of us have been trying to change.We aren't saying either group is any better or worse than the other . Therefore we just wish that no one would always infere that the other group is putting the other's comments in a unfavorale light.
I guess if one wanted they could even make the Bible seem negative.You know all those "THOU SHALL NOTS" .The authors must have thought the readers were all sinners.Or did they just want to be sure we knew the true choices that were available before we made up our minds.
I'm glad I can see the good in both groups and how much they are really alike.
Buddy

[This message has been edited by BUDDY (edited June 24, 2001).]
 
Buddy, you could be right, maybe I am projecting, I doubt it though. My instincts are usually right on the money. If I am, then Bob's answer would be "no" to my queries. Thanks for making me look at it a second time. I think I was responding mainly to his last two paragraphs. Most of what he said was non- controversial, but familiar.

John
 
I agree John .You have every right to say NO. But then I just want the undecided Grumblers to hear both sides equallywhile realizeing they are wanted and their opinions are valued.With that said I'll be quiet.
Buddy
 
"Are you saying people who are not members of PPFA are a problem?...should keep their opinions to themselves?..."

We're still a step or two above name-calling, but when a discussion deteriorates to this level it's usually because someone has run out of useful commentary.

I don't presume to know what's in Bob's head, but by the context of discussions:

"The Problem" could refer to the increasingly-fragmented state of our industry. Any framer who does not recognize that, or the significance of it, is missing plenty.

"The Problem" could be that too many framers still believe we don't need standards or common practices. Heck, even flower arrangers have standards. Standards aren't for us as much as they are for our clients, who are bewildered by all of the contradictions in our industry.

"The Problem" could be that too many framers still are blissfully unaware of what's going on around them. Many can't figure out why their business is dropping off, or what to do about it. They're thinking things will turn around any day now. But in reality, the whole industry's changing and they're not.

"The Problem" could be that too many framers see no need for continuing education; no nmeed to improve themselves or their businesses.

PPFA is about improving all of that, among other things. In spite of severely limited resources, deficiencies past and present, and the lack of interest by framers, PPFA has had positive impact over the years. Is it perfect? Absolutely not. But I say the association offers great potential. The big question is: Who's going to make it happen?

It's OK if you have no interest in PPFA. It's OK if you don't care about the direction of the industry, or if you don't think it's your job to work toward improving it. But in discussions like this, non-members always talk about how PPFA failed them X years ago, or that membership couldn't help them, or that someone told them not to bother with it. But none of that responds to the question.

You've obviously found some success in this trade, John; you're a good businessman. So, why aren't you interested in making the industry's only trade association useful for you?

It would be helpful if -- just once -- you non-members would tell us why you feel that way. If you give a reasoned response about the concept, instead of rhetoric about the failings, I'll quit asking.
 
Bob, I don't know how long one has to have been framing to be considered an "old-timer", but I have been doing this for 25 years and I would never assume I "know it all". For many years I was non-member, as I stated before, and, yes, I did manage to build a pretty successful business without the benefit of the PPFA. I haven't learned anything in the last year through the PPfa to make me a better businesswoman, but I have learned some things that will make me a better framer, in spite of all I think I know. Hopefully, with people such as yourself becoming members, we will get the benefit of those who have more experience in the business side of framing to aid those of us who need more knowledge in that direction. I would agree that no one NEEDS the PPFA, but it will only get stronger and better with serious participation from those in the business to support it.
 
This is a very interesting thread. There are obvious strong feelings on both sides. But, the thing I have trouble understanding is how the expenditure of $180. per year would harm anyone or be termed a waste of money. If--just on the off chance--it could support the only trade organization we have which is admittedly trying to pull up its image, isn't it worth that risk, no matter that you've not been helped demonstrably to this point? Just seems like the right thing to do.
 
We agree again, Pam. The best line I've heard
on learning was attributed to Earl Weaver, the feisty Manager of the Baltimore Orioles. He said something like Wisdom is what you learn after you already know it all. I'm still hoping to get wiser.
 
OKAY, bear with me. I had something godhead written out, and my computer went carnivore all over it. This may be a bit (and then again, maybe allot) disjointed.

I've been reading all the PPFA stuff here and on HHers. So far I still have no response. Just a Helluva lot of questions.

This Post is actually none of them. It is more in response to what Greg tossed in at the end of his last post. And a mention that Jim M has said before too. To paraphrase:
PPFA should be supported because it is the only trade assn for our trade.

Now before I get started, let me say I am a proud PPFA member. And on the board in my local chapter. And up until I read Greg's post, and had something snap, felt the same as what Greg said in his closing sentences.

Of all the services offered by PPFA, we do better elsewhere. And before HHers we were pretty much paying to get the sticker, and that's it. As has been said before HHers alone is worth the membership. But we still like the sticker too.

But now with the current PPFA developments I am wondering, if PPFA is worth supporting because it is the ONLY trade assn. I became more active, because as an org, it is only as good as it's active members. And usually the best way to effect change is from within, and not without.

Now to the tough stuff. IF any of this is wrong, just post it here or let me know, and I can edit it. I am going to tell a story as I have pieced things together. Some may be truths. Some may be hearsay, and some may be heresy. So if'n I'm wrong in what I've been told, I will be more than happy to get the straight story.

Here goes:
Years ago we had PPFA doing a yearly trade show. And we had Décor the magazine. At some point PPFA thought it could put together some sort of trade magazine. This did not make Décor happy. So if PPFA makes a mag, then they (Décor) will go in the trade show biz. Needless to say the PPFA's magazine never got off the ground, but Décor did find out it did trade shows very well. So well in fact, the PPFA show began to suffer. Suffer to the point of bad losses. (Hmmm, a for profit company doing better than a non-profit?)

So later on PPFA and Décor cut a deal. Décor would pay PPFA a lump sum for PPFA to stay out of the trade show biz for a period of years, and PPFA will get to be at all the Décor shows. A win-win it seems. Why be at only one show, if PPFA can be at many. And get money now for it. And not have to put on a trade show that was loosing money.

This brings us to today. As it turns out the arrangement was not such a win-win for PPFA. Décor has chosen not to renew the term, and PPFA now has no trade show, nor access to have the education franchise at them(Décor or PFM's). ( Again, this is because of another short sighted choice when PFM started it's show, PFPA said it was Décor's partner, and felt did not want to participate in the education at PFM's show). (PFM demonstrated it can do education very well on it's own. Hmmm, a for profit company doing better than a non-profit?. So well in fact, that Décor will have PFM do education for them) . Both times it shows that a for profit company has done better than the non-profit PPFA.

PPFA has gone from, at one time, having 500,00 in the bank, owning bldg it was in, and the lot next door, to now leasing space in their old bldg, and 10,000? In the bank. They have a lawsuit pending against them for $90,000. Have just had the Exec Dir leave for a better job. Have no trade show, no educational outlet at the moment, and are now putting the option on the table to have PPFA merge with another trade org to just be able to keep going.

(if any of this is wrong, and you have facts to show otherwise, just let me know, and I will edit any wrong assumptions)

I urge ALL PPFA members to get several documents in front of you. The Mission Statement. The Bylaws (by the way, the mission statement in the bylaws, does not match The Mission Statement). A current and past set of financials.

This may help you in the decision process.

As it stands now. The membership will get a ballot offering a choice of status quo, or merger with PPA. Almost like a vote of confidence/ no confidence.

I think, to be fair, the membership should have more options..

Maybe something like this:
A) Status Quo, in a downward spiral.
or
B) Merge to save the (sinking?) ship.
or
C) No merge, but the organization of a committee, made up of no current or past board members to find other alternative to save the ship, with binding recommendations.

And an add'l option for the membership to choose a true confidence/no confidence vote
A) Immediate RE-elections of all board members, from the general membership. All board member positions not-reconfirmed will be filled with new board member elections.

Sorry to stir up such a hornets nest. I will also start this as a new thread. And after any amendments due to incorrect assumptions, I will try to re-tool this to post on HHers.

Take care,
marc
 
Marc, You are right a new thread would be appropriate. You insight is refreshing and informative, but I was left feeling overwhelmed...
I am still stupified there is soo much deep rooted concern over $180.00/yr. 50 cents per day to bolster a professinal trade association. When I read the posts about this nominal membership charge and then read threads by individuals complaining about customers price objections, I am left absolutely astounded.
 
Dear Stupified and Absolutely Astounded Greg:

Yes, it does seem odd. Their "deep rooted concern" really isn't the cost, even if they say it is. No, these framers are responding on the basis of emotion instead of reason.

They don't know what's to gain, and they don't care to know. And that's all we need to know.

What astounds me is that I and a few others continue trying to explain it to them.
 
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