POS Trepidation

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Doug Gemmell

Doug Gemmell

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Joined
Jun 17, 2002
Posts
2,705
Loc
Everett, WA
Looks like I may be dragged, screaming and kicking into the 21st century.

May be getting POS soon.

Two questions (to start with):

About how long does it take to load all the price mark-ups and whatever else you have to put into it for setting the thing up?

I currently figure the price for the customer on a blank piece of paper. Then enter the exact dimensions, materials, etc. onto the work order after customer leaves. Would it be feasible to keep doing it this way with POS, eliminating the work order of course?

I ain't looking forward to this.
 
Doug--you are not alone. You have a nice web site so you ARE in the 21st cenury!

From another non-POS framer who will be joining the ranks of the confused soon.

There are a lot of us closet paper order people here:icon21:

No flames, please.
 
I would plan a full day to do this and get comfortable with the software. One thing you need to start thinking about is your formula for how you come up with your pricing.

After you get it in place. take the first day and still hand write the orders. Then enter them into your POS and make sure things price like you think they should. This will also allow you time to learn your software without the pressure of the customer standing in front of you as you fumble around.

Once you get comfortable with the software you will wonder how you ever did with out it.
 
DO IT

Hey just DO IT!
We have had Lifesaver for years and it was not hard at all to set up...we did thing by hand prior to LS . One thing with Lifesaver you will not have a lot of money spent up front ..it is FREE.
I paid full price years ago and ya know what? I would pay that again...it is a heck of a deal for any frameshop.
 
I don't think any of it will be as bad as you're thinking.

I haven't looked at any software for 3 years but when I did many were much more complicated than they needed to be. I'm sure its worse now but even still I would think you could be pricing in 1 day. The neat thing is that you can run dual system (paper and pos) until your totally comfortable.

I don't think it will be a good use of time to enter info twice. I actually don't enter "exact" dimentions into the POS ever because I don't use my worksheet to cut mats and build frames. I do all that at the workbench. You can enter the info once in the PC as fast as jotting it on a piece of paper anyway.

Carry on.
 
I bet after week 1 you'll exclaim "Why didnt we do this YEARS ago?!?" (hopefully!)

>how long does it take to load all the price mark-ups and
>whatever else you have to put into it for setting the thing up?

Some answers to your questions depend on which product you are asking about. Every product does the same task in a slightly different way, with the same ultimate goal.

Mouldings, mats, glazing, mounting, stretching, all have flexible markup tables; which can be adjusted to your liking.

With most programs, you just check off which vendors you carry and it immediately brings in a current inventory of each vendor's wares, as well as the costs per foot for length and chop. It calculates the selling price for each moulding, based on the markup rules; as determined by you. As prices change in the future, the new COST will come through and it will recalculate the retail, based on the same markup rule. (automatically)

Most programs come with default markups and prices, but these are only meant as a starting point example. Theyre definately not intended for every market, and should be carefully reviewed.

I would plan at least a couple evenings to run sample orders through the old way and new way. (or longer) This way you can compare the results, and perhaps make some adjustments. With a bit of trial and error, they'll be in the same ballpark. Once you're comfortable with the results, you'll be more confident going forward.

>I currently figure the price for the customer on a blank piece of paper.
>Then enter the exact dimensions, materials, etc. onto the work order
>after customer leaves. Would it be feasible to keep doing it this way
>with POS, eliminating the work order of course?

Imagine the POS ticket entry screen AS your blank piece of paper/canvas.

You can tweak any of the components, and compare any number of combinations, before you save and print the final result. It keeps a running total on the screen, as pieces of the job change. (itemized right down to the sales tax) The calculations will be made considerably faster than on paper, and you'll eliminate the need for a double entry system. The results will be legible and consistently accurate. You'll probably notice that customers trust the price more from the computer, and will be less likely to haggle or question the total.

Once the customer agrees to a design, you can click SAVE and get their contact information. It will then print the customer's invoice, along with the framer's workorder.

You'll notice the customer's invoice has just the basic info, such as the title of the job, the total price, tax, due date, deposit left, and balance due. The framer's copy (workorder) has the details of the order, including all the vendor item numbers/descriptions and measurements for each component.

At the end of the day, you'll get some nice reports that detail what was sold for the day, and what materials will be needed to complete them.

That's a basic/crude walkthrough of the process, which should be similar for most POS systems. (We are also using LifeSaver, btw) My advice is to approach it with an open mind. Yes, it may seem foreign for the first couple days, but you'll pick it up quickly. Regardless of which one you choose, I really think that you'll love it!

We're all here to help, if you have any questions.

Best regards,
Mike
 
Lots of good advice from the above Grumblers already.

Its' really easier than you think, once you install the software (I am talking about my LifeSaver experience here), you do the price update for all the vendors you deal with (over the internet), you setup your global markup for all or for each one (very fast to do) and you're almost done!

The only thing that takes a couple of hours at the most: Labor / fitting charges and glass. Get the cost sheet for glass, divide by the number of lites per case and enter your markup.

Done! :beer:
 
Val....
Are you paying attention here?


Yes. She is.
ACK!!
 
Oh, Val has a POS. Installed and everything. Just hasn't tweaked the pricing yet. That's the hard part. I'm a dinosaur, remember??

I'm getting closer, give me credit for that, will ya? I got the CMC, threw away the silicone seal, started putting solid backs on canvas frames, went to my first Framing Conference, took 10 classes there, learned to use an underpinner (formerly a pre-drill and brad-nail framer), rarely use a paper mat, don't dry mount nearly what I used to, bought (and use) a big roll of Melinex, 99% frames get conservation glass.....I'm working on it, OKAY????

How much is a plane ticket to Carson City worth to ya, Pauly?

Hellllp me, Kirstie! Hellllp Me!!!
Flames.....flames....ACK!!
 
If it wasn't the busy season, I'd be there for ya in a heartbeat Val.

But I could still walk you through it over the phone!;)

On the other had, you have really done well Val: Got yourself a CMC, became the CMC Beauty Queen, 129 classes at WCAF, etc...you're doing fine, hun!
 
When I installed my first POS system, I was almost computer-illiterate. Well, I might still be that, but at least I can turn the %&$# thing on now.

It took me almost a month to get all of my prices into the program the way I wanted them. At first I figured I'd just put them in the way I had been using them manually. But then I realized I could add set-fees and change the markups any way I wanted, and lots of other stuff I never imagined I could do! That realization added at least two weeks to my work, but the result would have been worth a month of Sundays of extra work. Truly, the POS system revolutionized my little business.

If my POS system and all my computers were all stolen tonight, I'd have the POS system restored in a new computer by tomorrow night. No kidding. I would not operate my business for even one day without my POS system. Or QuickBooksPro. Or my CMC. Or The G....

I'm hooked.:faintthud:
 
Doug,

We opened 13 months ago and we have used Lifesaver from day-one. Yes, we did spend some time learning to do it the "old fasioned" way at first, but found that the program saved SOOOO much time, and time = money.

It is easy to upload all of the mouldings you carry and to adjust your markup. Their voice-to-voice "help" has always been very helpful for us whenever we get stuck.

I would encourage you to look into it
 
Hey Doug-Reminds me of when i drummed up the courage to ask Debi (my wife) out for our first date. I worried over it; what would happen; supposse she said no

But, once I did, I realized what an idiot I was for not doing it earlier

Quit being an idiot.

99.9% of people that swear over the success can not be wrong

Embrace it, do it and get used to joining the 21st Century

We have had 4 POS systems over the years; two were good, but not good enough; one the service was pathetic

Everyone was better than what you are probably doing now

Quit being an idiot

And i am saying that in the kindest way possible
 
Thank you all for the encouragement and advice. I feel better about getting into the POS world.

Please ignore the other Doug Gemmell that posted a similar subject in the Business Section. He's not too bright.
 
Hey Doug-Let's open another can o' worms. Which brand will you get?

Mike has done a stellar job of doing product review in a side by side comparison in case you haven't gotten that far, even though we stll haven't had a chance to meet
 
Bob:

I had the pleasure of meeting Mike last January at WCAF.

He is one of the most knowledgeable and nicest guys one could ever meet.

My plan for the next WCAF: Buy Mike more drinks at the Lido and attend at least one of Bob's classes!
 
We looked at our design tables today and figured we could possibly get 3 terminals on them. One on the edges and one in the corner of the L shape. Bar code scanners hanging under the tables. One more computer in the custom work area, and one in the office loaded with the software. That makes 4 new computers minimum. We are concerned about the space the computers will take up on our design tables and may opt to have a bank of them on a side table, but that would make it more difficult to run back and forth from the design tables to enter data.

A lot of logistics to work out because our stop is large and busy.

On a positive note, I realized today that I have staff who are more computer literate than I am who would help with the set up.

Frame Ready sales manager called me because of what she read on the G. The advantage of that software is that we have some Macs and Macs at home. I need to look into Frame Ready and Life Saver and compare.

I feel like I'm seeing the woods for the trees--so busy with the day to day.

Speaking of which, I have a newsletter to get out in the morning and have to get back to it.
 
They're both very good products, and worthy of careful evaluation. Regardless of which you choose, I'd still aim for the PC platform. You can find inexpensive Dells, complete with monitor, in the $399 range-SHIPPED! (see other posts in this forum). It might cost a small fortune to do the same with Macs.

You'll want one PC at each point of sale location, and one of those can operate as the "server". (you don't necessarily need it in the office, it can have a dual function) The pc's can physically go under the counter, with just a small LCD screen, keyboard, and mouse on top.

A laser printer, and narrow receipt printer(s), can be networked. An automatic cash register drawer can, too, if desired. (This can screw under the counter) Barcode readers are also optional, and will read the barcodes on mats, mouldings, workorders, art/gift items, and customer slips.

I'll be glad to help if you have any questions about hardware. There's a decent shopping list in another thread, with the best prices I could find; as of last week.

As far as how they connect, you can do this with ethernet wires. They would plug into a common piece of equipment, known as a ROUTER. Your internet plugs into this device as well, so they can all have access. (see crude diagram below) The computers all share the same live database, which lives on the PC you designate as the server.

Mike
gtpnetwork.gif
 
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Thanks Mike, we already have three computers ( IF computer, Wizard computer, and offcie Mac. ) networked into a router in the office, and a shared printer, also upstairs, along with an ink jet printer attached to the If computer and an additional ink jet in the office. We could move the network laser jet downstairs to the sales area. We are part way there but still have several computers to buy for dedicated POS use. When we ger closer after I finally do research, I'll contact you about the latest deals. I really appreciate the help.
 
We have 5 computers networked for many years but the wires were really getting to us. Now that we are renovating we decided to do some wire/cable management. My husband looked into wireless but decided against it. He finally decided to bring someone in to do the work rather than doing it himself. Two people worked an entire day getting the wires through the walls and under the floors. Now we have a jack for each computer and no more wires running from each computer to the router. I have to say it was worth every penny!
 
Agreed. Wireless is a bad idea in a frame shop, for many reasons. (security, speed, reliability) Close to 80% of all wireless networks are supposedly set up incorrectly, giving full access to everyone within a few blocks.

Most that do have a password are using the older WEP encryption method, which has been broken. An experienced hacker or teen with the freeware tools found easily on the web can get your WEP encryption password in a matter of minutes.

Other nearby networks, cordless phones, and even microwave ovens will often interfere with wireless networks. Most of them come set at channel 6, and few people change it.

Here's a wireless thread from Oct 2004, that goes into better detail: http://www.thegrumble.com/showthread.php?t=6368

Your point about hiring a professional is a good one. If technical stuff isnt your cup of tea (or your staffs), there's no shame hiring a professional. They can handle the details such as installation, wiring, networking, antivirus, printer setup, backup procedures, etc. If you do so, my advice is to make a list of your expectations first - and follow up with each of them afterwards. I also suggest evaluating the various software products YOURSELF, with your staff, because you know the framing business better than a computer consultant will.
 
Mike Labbe @ GTP said:
Your point about hiring a professional is a good one. If technical stuff isnt your cup of tea (or your staffs), there's no shame hiring a professional. They can handle the details such as installation, wiring, networking, antivirus, printer setup, backup procedures, etc. If you do so, my advice is to make a list of your expectations first - and follow up with each of them afterwards. I also suggest evaluating the various software products YOURSELF, with your staff, because you know the framing business better than a computer consultant will.
Click to expand...

Actually Mike, in the past my husband used to do computer consulting & networking for small businesses, so technical stuff wasn't an issue. He takes care of backup, networking, antivirus, printer set up etc. We hired someone strictly for the physical aspect (something my husband is unable to do) of running wires and cables, making holes through the walls/floors etc. I think I mentioned that it actually took two people eight hours to get it done and they weren't slacking off. So for us it was definitely worth every penny!

I do agree that everyone should evaluate the various software products themselves even if they are non "techies". It may be daunting at first but chip away at it a little at a time. Even though we have had a POS system for at least 8 years I was a little overwhelmed when trying different software. And now that we are about to change I am getting a little nervous about the work involved but it will absolutely be worth it as we are so unhappy with our present system.
 
stop beating yourself up...

Just Do It!

you won't regret it. Choose carefully... I did not like the first one I purchased - never got it to work the way I wanted. I have Lifesaver now, and love it. Took me a halfday to tweak the prices and run with it.

Logistics-wise, I suggest keeping terminals at key locations for designers and not at one location. Computers have wireless mouses, wireless key boards, flatpanel screens - many things that keep the clutter to a minimum if you can locate the box under a counter. Keep the hardware and the people from getting cluttered up and congested.

Listen to Mike - he's really good and has really good advise.

Val - get your butt moving!!!! It's EASY!!

my 2 cents

Elaine
 
Great, fantastic, invaluable thread!

My two cents (which I've said before elsewhere):

When picking a software package, having the ability to actually 'test drive' it (NOT just looking at print outs of reports that don't show actual information that you've loaded and then processed in various ways) is key.

Load a bit of info (say, your moulding prices), build some orders that contain a frame only, look at your margins, tweak as needed, and repeat. Then, load the next bit of info (different mounting charges, shop time, french mat, etc.) and do the same. Glass and mat pricing goes really quickly. Just take the time up front to look at what you've loaded as far as your cost of materials and then your retail pricing and check your numbers.

My most important point to make (which, as a former retail systems software developer, I am passionate about): YOU run your business. Not your software. You need to understand what it is doing and not doing. Is the information being captured and then reported both accurate and relevant? Pretty reports and/or interfaces don't necessarily indicate that a system is accurate and relevant for you.

If you slowly build your own database of cost/pricing info, you'll start seeing 'your' little system helping you more and more.

Mike's info previously posted is dead on.

The training wheels can stay on as long as you need them. Before you know it, you'll be cruising along!
 
My POS isn't right on the design counter. I'm not sure thats a must either. To get started why not have one PC set up in a central location available from all tables? You can jot down the frame choices on paper and then go get the quotes. Even in a large shop your only going a few yards away. I suppose I could get the price of 3 frame designs in about a minute and half. I think a pos system in arms reach of every location in a story is a luxury and certinaly not a need at all.
 
Jay, I am sure that would work fine for some shops and possibly for our shop on some days. However, for busy shops like Kirstie has I doubt it would work. In the "good old days" we had three computers with POS in the frame design area. Inevitably all the customers would come in at the same time and we would be running into the office to use the 4th computer for pricing. When the shop is hopping it is not effective to be running to a computer at a different location, let alone having to wait to in line to get a quote. We are in a big city with customers double parking "just for a second" and I could just imagine how we would be blamed when they get a ticket!
 
Thank you all for the information and encouragement. I'm feeling better with each post. Before the day is up, I may actually be looking forward to the change.

The system is scheduled to be installed tomorrow. We have been selected as a beta site for a company that is just getting into POS, I think.

I don't know if I can, at this point, divulge the name of the company. I'll ask em tomorrow and if it's ok with them, I'll name them.

Does that change anything?
 
I guess it doesn't really matter where the computer is, but the barcode scanner, keyboard, mouse, and monitor should be within easy reach of the design table. I would not want to have to walk around the room in the process of taking an order. I'd rather do all of the paperwork standing in one spot.

The ideal situation would be to make the customer forget all about the computer stuff and concentrate on making the right design choices.
 
Earlier this year I jumped on the LJ Artaisance bandwagon, purchased another moniter, blah, blah, hooked everything up with a LINKSYS wired router and have had nothing but trouble since. The whole system will work for about two weeks, then one morning I will come in and try to get online and can't. Have to unplug the router, replug the DSL to get online and the other moniter has to set there doing nothing. I've contacted LYNKSYS for help, but get someone who either talks over my head or I can't understand them. I think I'm going to quit being so cheap and call in a professional also.
I just went to the Gemini Moulding Fall Festival, Lifesaver had a couple guys there that were very encouraging about their product. I accidentally bought their POS system in July and don't have that up and running yet either. I'm going to have to plan time to do that. It's very hard to keep everything running smoothly in a one person shop. Too many hats to wear.
 
hooked everything up with a LINKSYS wired router and have had nothing but trouble since. The whole system will work for about two weeks, then one morning I will come in and try to get online and can't. Have to unplug the router, replug the DSL to get online and the other moniter has to set there doing nothing. I've contacted LYNKSYS for help, but get someone who either talks over my head or I can't understand them

Are you unplugging the dsl modem or the linksys router at night? If so, I don't suggest doing so. Although the pc's can be turned off, the other equipment should stay on all the time.

It's also possible that the quality of the DSL line is poor. (static on the line) I would start with the dsl provider and ask them to check the quality of the signal coming into your equipment. They can do this through the internet while you are on the phone, to determine if there is a likely problem. The DSL modem keeps signal quality logs. Some folks have issues like this when it is rainy or windy, if that could be a factor. DSL is transmitted on the same wire as one of your phone lines, at a different frequency. It's very sensitive to static.

If you have any LifeSaver setup questions, feel free to jump into the chat room any time during business hours. (link is up on top)

Good luck with the new adventure!
Mike
 
Doug, Kirstie, Val?

I'm just following up. Did all of you go find a product and go live yet?

Mike
 
Mike Labbe @ GTP said:
Doug, Kirstie, Val?

I'm just following up. Did all of you go find a product and go live yet?

Mike
Click to expand...

Nope. So busy with pre-holiday. It will be after December.

Ducking for cover now...
 
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