portable underpinner

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yamoah

Grumbler in Training
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Dec 29, 2008
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Hi. I'm looking to start doing some framing at home and I wanted to buy one of the small portable underpinners. I was looking at the Logan Studio Joiner Model F300-1 and the Logan Studio Joiner PLUS! Model F300-3. (http://www.framing4yourself.com/equipment-supplies/frame-making-joining.htm)

Has anyone ever used these before and do they know if they work decently? I used to do framing so I am familiar with underpinning but not with this model.

Thanks for the input!
 
Welcome to the Grumble.

You might as well stuff the money in an envelope and send it off to me. That toy will be hitting the trash in no time.

You will need to spend closer to $1,000 for decent equipment.
 
I actually have to say that I have used a lever operated underpinner and ,as long as you pre-glue the joints with a miter vise, it works ok. I will even go as far as to say that the lever puts a nail into hardwoods better than the pneumatic underpinners I have used for almost 20 years. i would have been ready to discount these cheap options had I not used one myself a year ago. I was impressed. Would I use them on a daily basis? Heck no!
 
I too have used the hand operated nailer. OK for small jobs. Not for production jobs. I would invest in at least a foot operated model.

Time for breakfast.
cooking.gif
 
When I started out my home based shop the majority of my equipment was Logan. It was great to get started but once my business took off I upgraded everything. Logan equipment is ok to get started - in fact I still use the Logan studio underpinner now and then for difficult profiles and it works just great. If you don't want or if you can't afford a big investment I say go with what you can afford and upgrade as you and your business can afford it.
 
Hello,
I have a manual cassese underpinner it worked great for me when I started. I've since upgrated but I used it for 6 some years. Worked great for me. It is for sale under the comercial posts section. ArtistABrown@mchsi.com:icon21:
 
Audrey Brown said:
Hello,
I have a manual cassese underpinner it worked great for me when I started. I've since upgrated but I used it for 6 some years. Worked great for me. It is for sale under the comercial posts section. ArtistABrown@mchsi.com:icon21:
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The Cassese is an actual commercial piece of equipment and will do well with low volume framing.
 
I have my frame mouldings already cut to size. What I need now is a V-nailer to join them. I tried the corrugated nails and split some of the frames. Will this Logan F300-1 Studio Joiner (V Nailer) work? I just need something simple to do about 10 frames at home. Frame shops are charging too much to join them. Thanks.
 
I think what you're finding is that while frameshops seem to be charging too much, you're likely going to end up paying nearly as much, but still not get a professional result. How much did it cost to replace the mouldings that split? The studio joiner will not give you the professional result you are looking for.

If you have to do it yourself, and you're only doing a few (i.e. buying professional equipment isn't worth the expense) then a $50 mitre vise, some wood glue, and brads can give you a satisfactory join. All that money you'd be paying the frameshop would get you the job done right the first time and with the most professional result.
 
My first thought was "Logan makes an underpinner? Ughhh"

Looking at it for the first time I would guess that it would work okay on certain profiles after they had set up in a corner vice first but be pretty nasty on other profiles. We don't know what kind of profile you're trying to join.

I'd agree that you're probably going to want to set them up in a vice first anyway so why not just cross nail them while they are in that vice and putty the holes.
 
yamoah said:
Frame shops are charging too much to join them. Thanks.
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If you didn't notice, this is a bulletin board of Frame shop owners and employees. You just insulted most all of us.
 
yamoah said:
I have my frame mouldings already cut to size. What I need now is a V-nailer to join them. I tried the corrugated nails and split some of the frames. Will this Logan F300-1 Studio Joiner (V Nailer) work? I just need something simple to do about 10 frames at home. Frame shops are charging too much to join them. Thanks.
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So you think frame shops are charging too much? HA! Maybe we have overhead....and are professionals...and have families to support. Maybe ...just maybe we are in business to be in business, not to be criticized for doing just that.

Would you expect a professional framer to give their time away?

Sorry if you think I am being harsh, but we are professionals on this forum, whether in a storefront or home based. If you had framed before, you should have anticipated this. I find your comment insulting to our industry.

Welcome to the Grumble!
 
Hey, he's learning. After joining these frames he may better appreciate the equipment, cost, time, and talent it takes to make four perfect frame corners.

He'll have a shot at making the first two corners ok in the joiner I would imagine if the profiles are flat... then come the third and the fourth, just miters or are they good and true miters... and you know where I'm goin from here.

Anyway... good luck with your project.
 
I would be happy to sell you frames which are professionally cut and joined and they most likely would cost you no more than what you are paying for the chops you are buying including the freight to get them there.

Send me a private message by clicking on my profile name and you will see the option to send a private message. Describe what you are looking for and I will send photos of choices. Frames do not have to be expensive but high end specialty stores do need to charge for their time and overhead.

Do it yourselfers need to realize that this is not a cheap trade to enter. The amount of lost materials during the learning period is very expensive. Buying junk equipment is just throwing money away.

Let me give you an example of what I am talking about. The type of wood being joined makes all the difference. The piece of equipment you are looking at will work fine for inserting v-nails in soft wood. Now lets say that the soft wood is Basswood which allows for a beautiful finish but is very, very soft. This piece of equipment may crush the wood. Basswood also has a laquer finish applied in many cases and too much pressure will crack the finish. Now if you are joining solid walnut you will snap the handle off of the toy equipment trying to get a v-nail to fully seat.

Glueing the joint first does help but in many cases you will hear a crack sound while inserting the v-nail which means your glue joint has failed and the miter will not stay closed. You can avoid the joint from cracking by using a good glue with a plasticizer such as Framerica's Corner Weld but this stuff is $50 per gallon. My bet is you want to buy the cheap stuff for $10 a gallon and will have miserable results.

Becoming a framer will not save you money. You will have thousands invested to save a couple hundred bucks. You also have to learn an awful lot about the industry before realizing acceptable results. Finding an affordable framer will save you money.
 
yamoah said:
I have my frame mouldings already cut to size. What I need now is a V-nailer to join them. I tried the corrugated nails and split some of the frames. Will this Logan F300-1 Studio Joiner (V Nailer) work? I just need something simple to do about 10 frames at home. Frame shops are charging too much to join them. Thanks.
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Despite some of the harsh replies, I dont think your time or buying a logan underpinner is going to be cheaper than having them joined at a frameshop. IF your only doing a few buy a miter vise and use a hammer and nails to join the frames. $65 bucks or so from woodcraft..................done. You don't need a vnailer, and yes it probably will work.


I hope this thread hasn't totally turned you against framers.
 
You used to do framing? If your chops really are perfectly mitered, and all you want to do is join 10 frames, why not do it the traditional way, using a vice and brads?

Some professional framers would v-nail good chops for about $10 per frame. If you can spend less than $100 to buy any underpinner with fasteners and shipping, more power to you.
 
Wow! Can of worms!

Jim good answer, only doing 10 frames then use a vise. The logan is #### IMO. Have a customer that uses one, I'm too expensive for him, ($5 a frame to join) and his frames are cracked and gapping wide. It'll cost you 20 frames to pay off the Logan, or 200 to pay off the Cassese.

Or since you are already buying chopped molding ask for it thumbnailed. Cheaper than buying a vnailer.

Your comment about framers reminds me that my doctor costs too much to do my yearly exam, but I am saving money. I own a mirror.
 
I've got mixed feelings about this one.

Do we really think someone who needs ten frames joined is at home is going to put us out of business? Life's too short not to help people.

I never discourage do-it-yourselfers from trying.

Plus, given that we don't have any idea what his local shop is charging him to join these frames its unfair to call him cheap.

I join corners for $2-3 a corner. Who knows what he's paying.

While we do have families to support, this person probably does too. You want people to have crappy dollar store framing just because they can't afford to pay people?

A long time ago, I learned to work on clothes dryers because I didn't have the money to pay someone.

Overall, though, the best advice comes from Bob...go with thumbnailing and save yourself the expense of a machine... if its too late on these frames, pay a local framer (shop around or go with Jeff!) and get beautiful results.
 
janetj1968 said:
Do we really think someone who needs ten frames joined is at home is going to put us out of business? Life's too short not to help people.
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I agree, Janet. It's not about the money; the ocasional do-it-yourselfer is not going to hurt our business.

That said, the comment,
Frame shops are charging too much to join them.
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implies that the work of a professional framer is not worth the price. It's a common misperception of consumers who are uninformed, but someone who "used to do framing" ought to know better than that.

There's no benefit to getting our undies in a bunch. At the end of the day, this consumer probably could not save money buying any kind of underpinner to join 10 frames.

The good advice is already given:

1. Pay a local framer to join these 10 frames or join them in a vice with brads.

2. Next time, pay a few dollars extra and have the chops routed for plastic inserts.

3. If this is an ongoing need, wait until you can buy a good quality machine that will give professional results; perhaps a used manual underpinner for well under $1,000.
 
Why don't you buy them joined instaed of chopped...probablyt cheaper for you in the long run if only doing 10 frames/ What do you do for a living???
 
Both are a waste of time and money. Actually they are just toys. I have one and damaged a many of frames with it. I am now looking to purchase the Cassase 88 for my low volume work.
 
Jeff is absolutely right. They are just toys. I have one and have damaged many a frames trying to use it. I am looking to purchase th Cassase 88
 
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