Polystyrene Moldings

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Brian K

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Selkirk Manitoba
Just had a nice selection of polystyrene moldings delivered by a supplier. Boy they sure look nice! And even nicer for customers as the price is ~25% of traditional wood frames.

But as I have zip experience with these moldings seached the G. and found this very useful entry from Jim Miller back in 02:

"Here are a few tips:
1. Use your chopper instead
2. Use a low tooth-count blade in the saw
3. Reduced saw speed, if available, reduces heat buildup.
4. Move the saw blade through the plastic as quickly as possible (slower is better for the chopper, though).
5. Use cyanoacrylate glue (i.e. super glue) sparingly -- keep it off the finish.
6. V-nail just like wood, but at lower air pressure. Don't rely on glued corners. The glue joint won't fail, but the plastic could break. The steel reinforcements in each corner help avoid breakage at those stress points.
7. When fitting, fill the rabbet completely and use plenty of Fletcher "Flexible MultiPoints" #08-975; their double-serrated tips grip best. Also, apply 2" wide clear plastic, heavy duty packing tape all around the perimeter, to join the back of the moulding to the last filler board, and burnish it thoroughly. Taping adds stiffness to the flexible moulding, which is important in larger frames."


Question is two fold:

a) Is the life expectancy of plastic moldings comparable to wood? Do colors fade?

b) Jim has also suggested the structural integrity of the frame is less than ones made of wood. That being the case is there a suggeston of increasing the width one would normally choose if it was wood, ie: double?

Cheers and best wishes.....
 
The corners are, as Jim points out, much more fragile than those of wood.

During the recent holiday rush, a guy brought in a broken frame for which he needed repair. He agree to wait until after the new year to have it fixed, so I didn’t pay too much attention to it at the time.

When I first saw it, I thought it was wood, but, lo’ and behold, when I tried to break the remaining corners so that I could re-miter the rails, it turned out to have been made of polystyrene.

It had been held together with (I assume) SuperGlue and V-nails. When I was able to knock out the nails, an awful lot of the plastic crumbled off of it. It resembled a very bad batch of snotwood. I would have had to miter at least 3/4” out of each end.

I failed to measure it when it came in, but the moulding turned out to be too wide (a little less than 5”) to join in any of my vises. I could probably have cut it with the chopper although I would have had to max up the blades, use a step stool, and jump down on the foot lever.

I debated whether to try to use my saw, but I feared that I would either burn it, melt it, or gum up my saw blade too much. Because of the width, I wouldn’t have been able to clamp it, nor do I believe that the miters would have be true enough for me to get a good joint.

I ended up having to call the guy and state that I couldn’t do it for him.

I don’t have any data to back up my opinion, but I would think using a wider plastic frame than you would use for wood would simply add weight to it and stress the corner joints even more. A thinner rails ends up being too flexible for my taste.

A polystyrene frame can be very attractive, but I don’t like to work with them at all.
 
And I just started working with the poly mouldings! I was told at the Decor show in Atlanta this Sept. that the polystyrene mouldings have improved drastically in the past 10 years, this after some fairly derogatory comments I made to a couple of companies that had poly in their lines.

So far I have built 4 poly frames and was impressed by their clean joins and their beautiful and unique finishes. Granted they aren't the natural wood that we have all grown accustomed to in our shops but they have a certain charm in my opinion that sets them apart from wood. And the fact that they don't warp, bow, delaminate, or have their finish rub off is an indication that they may have a proper place in a framer's line of offerings to their customers. I have taken a very serious second look at some of these mouldings and I have to admit that they are very good looking and priced to fit almost any tight budget.
 
I had a call today from a "relatively new" (he said) moulding company out of Texas, asking if I was interested in carrying their moulding line....do I use much in the way of "plastic mouldings"? (his words) I said I do not. They're out of Texas, they might be calling any of you....got our ph#'s from an "Reference USA", an online yellow pages.

Just thought I'd pass on the info.
"Marcosoni Moulding" 1-214-597-5703
 
Proof of the parallel Universe theory.

Bill Henry- said:
During the recent holiday rush, a guy brought in a broken frame for which he needed repair. He agree to wait until after the new year to have it fixed, so I didn’t pay too much attention to it at the time.

When I first saw it, I thought it was wood, but, lo’ and behold, when I tried to break the remaining corners so that I could re-miter the rails, it turned out to have been made of polystyrene.

It had been held together with (I assume) SuperGlue and V-nails. When I was able to knock out the nails, an awful lot of the plastic crumbled off of it. It resembled a very bad batch of snotwood. I would have had to miter at least 3/4” out of each end.

.
Click to expand...


Me Too!!!!

I went ahead and cut out the corners, (big gooey mess), and trimmed down the Sams Club Art to fit the smaller frame. Wish I had said no.

Doug
 
Not to be forgotten that those frames last for ever and five hundred yrs from now they'll look just like they do today and can be re-re-offered as X-mas gifts to unsuspecting relatives. No need for repair, fixing or replacing such frames either. In fact getting rid of plastic frames might become a problem as they aren't biodegradable. Perhaps, being jealous on frames enduring forever, the artists themselves will one day be forced to turn to plastic art in order to match art's and frames' expected life span and values. Nudes (statues) modeled in soft rubber had already been invented and used for over 30 yrs now...
 
Did we all have the same customer this Christmas? Lady thought she'd save money having hers repaired, the price tag on the back was $45 for a 16x20 "french d'art" Aaron Bros. thing, and replace the scratched and cracked plastic "glazing", by the time I had to charge her for my time (more than the original price tag and I still didn't charge enough!), she could've had an entire new frame and it would've looked better. Maybe starting from scratch with polystyrene is okay, but trying to repair those things? I think I'll start saying no, too.

So, why do I still do it??? Why can't I just say "No, I'm sorry, this is simply not repairable" instead of saying "I don't think I can get it back to it's original condition, but I'll do the best I can." and all we can say when it's finished is "Well....it's better than it was...." and I'm embarrassed to give it back.
 
Val

For some reason I do a ton of repair work in my new location. I have burned myself time wise many times on plastic frames.

I have learned the hard way to say "I'm sorry, this is not repairable". If they fine some other sucker, I mean framer in town to try, then God Bless them.
 
Polystyrene mouldings, as noted by Tom, have a place in our industry, and it is clearly defined. That place is the budget place. When a customer is interested in buying a good-looking frame at a low price, poly moulding will win the order every time.

Is plastic comparable to wood in terms of price and structural integrity? No. Is it comparable to wood in terms of durability, finish quality, and variety of available finishes? Not yet -- but it is improving rapidly. Is it as easy to work with as wood? Absolutely, with the same tools, and with much less waste due to warps, knots, and other blemishes common to wood.

Plastic mouldings are durable -- their life on the wall is comparable to any wood -- but plastic frames do not repair well. When they are broken by impact or other unusual stress (which would probably break a wood frame, as well) plastic frames are pretty much finished. However, given their price, replacement is a viable option instead of repair. Whereas with wood, repair may be preferable to starting over.

While plastic mouldings continue to improve, the quality of wood mouldings continues to diminish. These days we work with a lot more snotwood, and a lot less cherry, ramin, and other traditional woods used in framing.

Will plastic mouldings be more common in framing than wood mouldings some day? Hmmm. Good question. Remember when car bumpers were made of steel?
 
As pestilenial as plastics may seem in our environment, in museum collections
they are properly regarded as being unstable and difficult to maintain. Wood
and metal are far more stable, in the long term.


Hugh
 
Man, I don't believe it but I had this customer, too! Something she ordered on the net and was slightly damaged in shipment. I said "yes" just to get her out of the store - I was busy!
I wrecked the corners trying to take it apart. I was so upset! Rather than have it ruin my week, I cut her a frame out of my moulding and only charged her the amount the repair would have cost.:(
It was a lesson learned. I made a sign for the counter - "I do NOT repair cheap, non-wood, "made in china" frames."
It's been great! I've had chuckles, belly laughs, people asking about PMS or if I'm going through the change. Who knew?:) :)
BTW, I also have a sign stating that I sell only quality wood and metal frame mouldings. It's been there since poly came out and I don't intend to change now or in the future. But that's just me.
 
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I've tried working with poly mouldings.
They have saved a couple of sales but I absolutely hate working with them!
If the glue gets on the finish the frame is ruined.
I have had very bad results trying to cut them on my chopper. Even with sharp blades I often end up with cavities in the moulding, much worse than the worst snotwood I've worked with so I have retired my samples to under the counter status and then I will order chops.


I learned early on not to try to repair them.
There are times when it pays to say no!
 
stshof said:
...I wrecked the corners trying to take it apart...It was a lesson learned....
Click to expand...

Well yes, that would be a lesson learned. In that scenario, there are other lessons to be learned, as well.

For example, if the frame has loose corners, or a cracked rail, or even a clean break, do not try to take it apart. Usually, as Sue testified, that does not work. Instead, put a strap clamp on it, and carefully apply the thin-consistency cyanoacrylate glue into the gap. Capillary action will wick the watery adhesive down into the tightest of cracks. If the miters were sloppy (as some are) and the gap is moderately large, up to about 1/16", the gel-type cyanoacrylate will help to close the gap.

If the frame can not be repaired this way, then tell the customer it is not repairable and sell a new moulding. Caution: Suggesting an expensive moulding might send this customer screaming for the door. After all, she paid probably less than $100 for the whole thing originally. But if you keep a bargain moulding for the purpose -- perhaps another plastic -- you probably can make the sale.

If the frame can be repaired as described above, leave the dustcover and hanging hardware on it -- unless they need replacement, or you just want to make a cleaner job of it.

Here's another lesson: $80 to $100 for 30 minutes work with no COGS is a good way to boost profit, help to dispel the framing-is-expensive myth, and cultivate new customers.

stshof said:
... I made a sign for the counter - "I do NOT repair cheap, non-wood, "made in china" frames."...
Click to expand...

You might want to take off the "made in China" part of that sign. A lot of wood mouldings previously made in the good 'ole USA are now being made in China, Korea, Brazil, and other countries. You probably have some Chinese corner samples on your display wall.
 
The sign is right for now - For now, I do repair cheap, WOOD, made in China frames...;)
You do have a point, Jim. And it makes me sad...:cry:
 
I would be surprised if a frame shop had 50% of the wood samples they carry made in the US. There are few places in the US that make moulding anymore. And if the vendor is large (like LJ since we all know them-not picking on them) they most likely have 80% made out of the states. A few years back it was common to hear Italy, France, and Mexico. Now you can hear Russia, Germany, Brazil, Ireland, China, Japan, Taiwaan, Chile, Canada, England, well it is now a global market. It is hard to have it made here for a better price.

So if you are worried about that, it is a bit on the late side.

I have not used polys, but I would try them. I think it is good to be knowledgeable about them, to know what is available. Heck I want to try them. I may not like them, but Jim is right. We complain that customers think we are not cheap. When you have the opportunity to get another customer, do it. That is what needs to be done in this business, we need to be agressive and really go after the customer. And that includes everyone. Or soon that 7% of the people that has stuff framed is going to be 4% in five years. Be agressive now, don't complain when it is too late.

PL

i would do one of those soap box gremlins, but i don't know how.
 
soapbox graemlins

Patrick,
after you hit the quick reply button, look under the reply box and you will see one that says advanced...or something like that.
Then you have to look at the graemlins and hit [more].
When you do that more graemlins will appear and the soapbox guy is there.

good luck
 
I've erroneously taken in a couple frames for repair not realizing they weren't wood until trying to work on them. I guess that is a good indication of how well they are making them if they are even fooling us.

One of the frames was originally v-nailed and had crumbled where the v-nails pulled apart from the frame. I had some Weldon on hand from an acrylics place I had used to repair an acylic box with. Long story, I am not qualified to repair acrylic boxes but after 2, count them 2 dismal attempts to get the box in one piece from UPS I decided to try repair myself in the interest of time. The Weldon applicator is a plastic bottle with a cap and a very thin metal tube almost as thin as a hypodermic needle. The Weldon is thin as water. I was able to get the applicator inside a slight gap and skwirted some in and clamped her shut. this stuff bonds for life and it didn't eat up the insides that I could see and it seemed to be holding like a tank. It is dangerous to use because you cannot get it on the finish because it will destroy it but it has gotten me out of a couple jams with those "surprise I'm poly" type jobs.

But, as a rule I don't accept repair jobs on poly frames.....................
 
Wow, Hugh, “pes·ti·len·tial”? Good one! :)

I had to look it up, but, at least, they pronounced it for me.
 
Yeah, learn something every day here .... well .... that's the idea I s'pose ...

I had to look up Kathy's 'erroneously' - thought it was either something to do with waves bashing into cliffs or bits of your body that make you go all squidgy when you touch them ..... when someone else touches them .... er ...
 
Deb, the newer generation poly mouldings from S. Korea have a wood fiber additive to the ploy. It makes them muck more rigid, and it makes them much easier to saw, but they don't chop as well, and they tend to shatter rather than break when their downward progress is suddenly stopped.

John, are you talking about her erroneous zones....again?
 
Wally, the frames I tried were within the past year.
I was told by the rep (you know him) that they would chop fine. He said he'd sold lots of length to one of his customers and watched him chop it.

Yeah, right.

I might add that the last time I placed an order for 100 feet of an inexpensive wood moulding from him it never showed up.

I never followed up on it. Just ordered a similar moulding from another company.
 
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