Please help with needlework framing disaster

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Needleworker

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Hello everyone, I am a needleworker, not a framer. I am meticulous with my needlework, and have won ribbons at shows. I take great care to preserve it. I found a framer about 4 years ago and after they framed a few pieces for me decided to trust them with my needlework last year. I laced on the first needlework piece I gave them myself and said I didn't want any tape near it, and asked that the wood fillet have protective tape on it where it touched my needlework fabric. I brought a second unlaced piece to them last month and they assured me it would be laced on. Here is where the disaster starts:

I see a piece of fluff on the needlework when I get the finished frame home. I decide to open the frame myself rather than take it back and wait for my framer to do it. This is where I discovered the piece had not been laced or even pinned. It had just been stuck to the mat with double-sided tape. I unstuck it and washed it and called to say how unacceptable this was. They said they'd redo it and they don't know why it wasn't laced, because it should have been. No way will I let them touch my needlework again. I'll lace it myself and let them redo the mat and fillet.

Now, the disaster. I brought my earlier framed needlework piece to the framer and said I wanted to open it in front of them given what they had done to my latest piece of needlework. I had laced this on myself, remember. Guess what? Packing tape and masking tape are all over the back of the fabric. I cannot believe it--the piece was laced on foamcore, there was no need for tape of any kind. Oh, and the backing board was a piece of cardboard!! Talk about acid. I peeled off what tape I could get off, but it isn't all coming off. I am gutted, to work so hard on a piece and have it treated like this. Does anyone know how to get masking tape out of fabric?

I paid $800 and up to have these pieces framed with French mats. I think I am at the very least owed the cost of the needlework stretching on the latest one. What else is reasonable to compensate me for this? I am meeting the manager tomorrow, as the people I have dealt with didn't know what to do.

Finally, please, PM me if you are in the DC area and know how to treat needlework from a conservation perspective. As I was near tears ripping the masking tape off the needlework, the framing person couldn't understand what the big deal was, saying the discoloration would never get to the front of the fabric! Honestly!

Thanks for any help. I really am beside myself. These pieces represent years of work.
 
Consider calling a lawyer. You should get ALL of your $800 back!:fire:
 
Wow.. that's terrible. Please know that there are many, many framers who would treat your needleart with the same care as you would. If you follow this link and enter your zip code and "textiles" in the drop down menu
http://www.conservation-us.org/about-conservation/find-a-conservator#.U1rKC_ldVwk
you can hopefully find a conservator who can talk to you about removing the tape. I would think they (your framer) would cover the cost of any possible restoration seeing as how the damage is a direct result of their treatment..
 
...and if you can come all the way to Hagerstown, MD, I assure you it will get the proper treatment at Howard's. I take serious care of any needlework that comes in.

If you are in Falls Church, see Design Frames. In Chantilly, see House of Frames. In DC proper, see Framers' Workroom. If none of those are geographically feasible, give me a call at Howard's and we will see what we can do.
 
framah said:
Consider calling a lawyer. You should get ALL of your $800 back!:fire:
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Wow--I wasn't even going to ask for the entire cost of the framing. This is why I posted here, because I am so upset but want to be reasonable in what I expect. These framing mistakes will be hours of work for me to correct though. I took pictures of the later piece stuck to the mats as I unwrapped it. I just took pictures of the masking tape residue on the earlier piece, but did not get pictures as I was taking it apart because I was doing it at the shop. Thanks for your response.
 
The Village Framer said:
Wow.. that's terrible. Please know that there are many, many framers who would treat your needleart with the same care as you would. If you follow this link and enter your zip code and "textiles" in the drop down menu
http://www.conservation-us.org/about-conservation/find-a-conservator#.U1rKC_ldVwk
you can hopefully find a conservator who can talk to you about removing the tape. I would think they (your framer) would cover the cost of any possible restoration seeing as how the damage is a direct result of their treatment..
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Thank you so much for your advice. I had never seen that conservator site before. I will be pursuing their help. The masking tape residue is so stuck on after only a year. I can't imagine what it would be like 5, 10 or 20 years from now. I am so thankful for that piece of fluff on the other piece or I never would have opened up this one.
 
EllenAtHowards said:
...and if you can come all the way to Hagerstown, MD, I assure you it will get the proper treatment at Howard's. I take serious care of any needlework that comes in.

If you are in Falls Church, see Design Frames. In Chantilly, see House of Frames. In DC proper, see Framers' Workroom. If none of those are geographically feasible, give me a call at Howard's and we will see what we can do.
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Thank you so much for this. I am in Alexandria, VA. I absolutely would drive up to Hagerstown for needlework framing. I go to Kentlands to get my hair cut. I have no problem driving for excellent services.

I'm still stunned about all that masking tape, I really am. You might be familiar with the needlework show at Woodlawn--I just won second place with this piece. It looked beautiful, but what a mess inside.
 
While I have never been to Woodlawn, I have framed pieces for the competition and seen pictures of the event. Very impressive. You really make me wish I was still in business, just so I could help you. (But we closed and no longer even live in Maryland.)

Howards Art does beautiful work and they truly care about the quality. As for the removal, I agree with getting a conservator... but make sure your lawyer knows ALL the expenses you go through (including your time find the Grumble and getting our answers) so you can get your money back. Tape and cardboard is inexcusable from any framer these days.
 
Needleworker said:
Thank you so much for this. I am in Alexandria, VA. I absolutely would drive up to Hagerstown for needlework framing. I go to Kentlands to get my hair cut. I have no problem driving for excellent services.

I'm still stunned about all that masking tape, I really am. You might be familiar with the needlework show at Woodlawn--I just won second place with this piece. It looked beautiful, but what a mess inside.
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:sleep:

Dear Needleworker - so sorry to hear of your experience. Ellen(the Queen of Needlework) is correct. There is no excuse for that type of work on your pieces and there are a number of shops around NoVA, MD and DC that can help you in the future. To aid your search ask if the shop has an MCPF or CPF on staff. While not a guarantee, an individual with these initials after their name will have studied and been tested on proper needlework preservation techniques. Also feel free to give me a call at Design Frames in Falls Church and I will be happy to help you find a framer to design and assemble your future projects.
 
Susan May said:
While I have never been to Woodlawn, I have framed pieces for the competition and seen pictures of the event. Very impressive. You really make me wish I was still in business, just so I could help you. (But we closed and no longer even live in Maryland.)

Howards Art does beautiful work and they truly care about the quality. As for the removal, I agree with getting a conservator... but make sure your lawyer knows ALL the expenses you go through (including your time find the Grumble and getting our answers) so you can get your money back. Tape and cardboard is inexcusable from any framer these days.
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Thank you for the nice sentiment and will do. I am still stewing about this. From their website, "We have made it our goal to provide extraordinary framing quality and craftsmanship worthy of a discriminating clientele. We frame to museum standards to insure the longevity of your art for future generations." I am pretty sure masking tape and cardboard are not up to museum standards.
 
vaframeman said:
:sleep:

Dear Needleworker - so sorry to hear of your experience. Ellen(the Queen of Needlework) is correct. There is no excuse for that type of work on your pieces and there are a number of shops around NoVA, MD and DC that can help you in the future. To aid your search ask if the shop has an MCPF or CPF on staff. While not a guarantee, an individual with these initials after their name will have studied and been tested on proper needlework preservation techniques. Also feel free to give me a call at Design Frames in Falls Church and I will be happy to help you find a framer to design and assemble your future projects.
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Thank you for your thoughts and I appreciate your offer. I'm just thinking tonight that over the past few years I have also had this shop frame 6 original paintings for me, all but one watercolors. I am not sure what to do about them. Am I best off having another framer open these up to check for problems? Do I just bring them all back to this shop? Not feeling like I trust their opinion.
 
I would have one of the framers on here, who has offered to frame your future works in the correct manner, have a look at them.
Your experience with the only two you have seen the inside of has been bad, I can't imagine the others being good, unless they had recently employed a new framer who is blagging it.
 
Welcome to the Grumble, Needleworker.
I'm sorry that you had such a bad experience with a frame shop that you trusted.
I almost wish that you would "out " the shop by name, but that's your call.

Thank you for posting this.
It might be a "wake-up" call to other shops that might be doing the same kind of work.
It could be that the shop owner has hired cheap, inexperienced workers who just don't have the knowledge and experience or they just don't give a d#mn.

I hope everything works out for you and that your work can be done correctly.

PS to IFGL (Darren).
I like that comment "blagging it".
That's a new one for me, but I might use it in the future.:thumbsup:
 
IFGL said:
I would have one of the framers on here, who has offered to frame your future works in the correct manner, have a look at them.
Your experience with the only two you have seen the inside of has been bad, I can't imagine the others being good, unless they had recently employed a new framer who is blagging it.
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Thanks for your thoughts. They make sense to me.
 
neilframer said:
Welcome to the Grumble, Needleworker.
I'm sorry that you had such a bad experience with a frame shop that you trusted.
I almost wish that you would "out " the shop by name, but that's your call.

Thank you for posting this.
It might be a "wake-up" call to other shops that might be doing the same kind of work.
It could be that the shop owner has hired cheap, inexperienced workers who just don't have the knowledge and experience or they just don't give a d#mn.

I hope everything works out for you and that your work can be done correctly.
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Thanks very much, for the warm welcome and thoughts. Would it not be against forum rules to name the shop? I will say that what drew me to them, besides their proclamations of museum quality work, is that they do the most beautiful french mats--as a needleworker I notice details and the lines are just perfect. If all you can see is the outside, their work seems excellent. The inside counts just as much though-more if you are dealing with heirlooms, which is what I consider my stitching.
 
I don't think it's against the rules to name them, but it might be to soon to do it.
If they take care of you and set things right, then I guess I wouldn't name them.
Just find another shop.

On the other hand if you did name them before they have a chance to fix things, they just might stop taking your calls.
Good luck.
 
neilframer said:
I don't think it's against the rules to name them, but it might be to soon to do it.
If they take care of you and set things right, then I guess I wouldn't name them.
Just find another shop.

On the other hand if you did name them before they have a chance to fix things, they just might stop taking your calls.
Good luck.
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Good advice, which I will take.
 
EllenAtHowards is an excellent resource in your area and if she can't help you herself, she will point you in the direction of someone who can.
 
Needleworker did all but name them with the website quote, took 3 mouse clicks to find em, they do push conservation hard, hence the new blagging it framer comment.
 
to blag is to obtain something through cunning, guile or just to lie, in this case I was referring to the (maybe or not) new framers job.

for instance someone on another thread could have blagged their way into having a shop take back a item from another shop.

hope this helps :)
 
IFGL said:
to blag is to obtain something through cunning, guile or just to lie, in this case I was referring to the (maybe or not) new framers job.

for instance someone on another thread could have blagged their way into having a shop take back a item from another shop.

hope this helps :)
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Hey, thanks!
I Googled it and I just liked the sound of it.
It's kind of like Bull Shi##ing someone but it sounds better.:cool:
 
Sorry to hear that sorry tale Needleworker.
It's a sad fact that some framers bank on the likelihood of the customer never opening the frame once they get it. You are right to be angry. What annoys me most about these lash-up jobs is that it would very little extra work and not a lot of extra expense for the framer to do it properly.
Especially as you laced the piece yourself. :thumbsup:

My prime directive when it comes to framing is that the framed item can be removed from the frame at any time leaving no trace of ever having been in a frame.

If you do want to take this further, get a quote from a good fabric restorer for the remedial work. This is likely to be a quite a hefty wedge of cash. Add on the 'framing' costs and any other expenses incurred.
Then go talk to a lawyer.

You might consider adding a sum for the obvious distress inflicted upon you. Perfectly reasonable. But having said that, this is a rather nebulous factor and could be argued against, thus making the case drag on and on. Slap 'em with your real costs on paper and if they have any sense they'll settle.
 
Be open to the possibility that this shop has a rouge employee who is cutting corners.

See how they react when you call them out and ask for a refund.

Doug
 
I won't name names.. but they were easy to find.

Looking at the web site, I got too thoughts...

1) Their web site looks like it was designed by Larson Juhl. Whoever made the web site made it pretty and informative... but there are no photos of the actual people who work there. It seems a little cold.
2) If they are as good as they say... they better have just gotten new employees.

We ran our (frame) shop in the DC area for 18 years, and I don't remember ever hearing their name. Which is weird, because we tried to work well with the shops around us.
 
Needleworker... As a professional framer I am shocked and dismayed to find your artwork treated so badly and your directives not followed. You should not have even had to tell them that you wanted no tape or adhesives adhered to the work. I would suspect and would hope that a renegade employee is to blame and that employee be terminated... I mean fired, not extinguished. :eek: At least I would hope and pray that it is not the shop's policy to treat customers and their work in such a manner.

You sound like a very reasonable and calm person. I'd be interested in seeing the work order to see exactly what services were charged for.
 
prospero said:
Sorry to hear that sorry tale Needleworker.
It's a sad fact that some framers bank on the likelihood of the customer never opening the frame once they get it. You are right to be angry. What annoys me most about these lash-up jobs is that it would very little extra work and not a lot of extra expense for the framer to do it properly.
Especially as you laced the piece yourself. :thumbsup:

My prime directive when it comes to framing is that the framed item can be removed from the frame at any time leaving no trace of ever having been in a frame.

If you do want to take this further, get a quote from a good fabric restorer for the remedial work. This is likely to be a quite a hefty wedge of cash. Add on the 'framing' costs and any other expenses incurred.
Then go talk to a lawyer.

You might consider adding a sum for the obvious distress inflicted upon you. Perfectly reasonable. But having said that, this is a rather nebulous factor and could be argued against, thus making the case drag on and on. Slap 'em with your real costs on paper and if they have any sense they'll settle.
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Thank you very much. "First do no harm" is a great motto for more than doctors.

I will be sending pictures to a couple of conservators. I'll post them here too. I have mislaid my camera cable in a move and need to find it.
 
DVieau2 said:
Be open to the possibility that this shop has a rouge employee who is cutting corners.

See how they react when you call them out and ask for a refund.

Doug
Click to expand...

I will be. I guess I am not hopeful based on the counterperson's reaction to seeing all the masking tape. Besides saying the discoloration couldn't get to the front of the fabric, she asked how else could they hold the piece up. :cry:
 
Susan May said:
I won't name names.. but they were easy to find.

Looking at the web site, I got too thoughts...

1) Their web site looks like it was designed by Larson Juhl. Whoever made the web site made it pretty and informative... but there are no photos of the actual people who work there. It seems a little cold.
2) If they are as good as they say... they better have just gotten new employees.

We ran our (frame) shop in the DC area for 18 years, and I don't remember ever hearing their name. Which is weird, because we tried to work well with the shops around us.
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I was told that they don't do any of the framing in Alexandria. They send it all to their location in Orange.
Not good at all if you've never heard of them.
 
Dave said:
Needleworker... As a professional framer I am shocked and dismayed to find your artwork treated so badly and your directives not followed. You should not have even had to tell them that you wanted no tape or adhesives adhered to the work. I would suspect and would hope that a renegade employee is to blame and that employee be terminated... I mean fired, not extinguished. :eek: At least I would hope and pray that it is not the shop's policy to treat customers and their work in such a manner.

You sound like a very reasonable and calm person. I'd be interested in seeing the work order to see exactly what services were charged for.
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Thank you for your kind words. I have no paperwork for the framing--this has always bothered me because this framer takes your piece and does not even give you a receipt to show you left work. (I asked for one.) I am always relieved to see my piece again. When I brought in this last piece, I heard the manager tell the person calculating costs, "Don't forget the extra charge for needlework, because it is more difficult." !!
 
Needleworker said:
Thank you for your kind words. I have no paperwork for the framing--this has always bothered me because this framer takes your piece and does not even give you a receipt to show you left work. (I asked for one.)...
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Another reason not to do business with them. That is certainly not an acceptable practice for a frame shop. When you leave an item for framing you should get a receipt identifying the item, all that is being done, and the cost.
 
I would take it all to Ellen, let her make an assessment of what to do, she is no nonsense and will help guide you.
 
Pat Murphey said:
Another reason not to do business with them. That is certainly not an acceptable practice for a frame shop. When you leave an item for framing you should get a receipt identifying the item, all that is being done, and the cost.
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I was uneasy about it, but now wish I had walked away with my piece when told they don't give receipts.
 
Very interesting thread. As we have quotes that lead us to the frame shop in question, I would like to see a receipt and pictures of the damaged work. Is this a harmed customer or a unhappy
former employee? As this is a public forum...........................................
 
palmettoframing said:
Very interesting thread. As we have quotes that lead us to the frame shop in question, I would like to see a receipt and pictures of the damaged work. Is this a harmed customer or a unhappy
former employee? As this is a public forum...........................................
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I have tried to convey my genuine anguish at what has been done to my work. I am truly mortified. I'd happily post my receipt, but this shop gives no receipts. They did give a receipt for running the credit card through, but that just shows an amount. Pictures of my damaged work are coming, hopefully later today. I just have to find my cable. I have never worked for any frame shop. Perhaps when I meet Ellen she can vouch for the fact that what happened to me is real.
 
Are you saying they did not write an order out and give you a copy? Or did they write an order out and not give you a copy? If they did not write an order out with all the colours and references etc, how did they make what you chose and if they did - where's their workshop copy or duplicate book copy or saved computer file??
 
RoboFramer said:
Are you saying they did not write an order out and give you a copy? Or did they write an order out and not give you a copy? If they did not write an order out with all the colours and references etc, how did they make what you chose and if they did - where's their workshop copy or duplicate book copy or saved computer file??
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I saw the person that helped me writing things on her side of the counter after I made my choices. I'm not sure exactly what she was writing and I don't have any idea if that qualifies as an order. I don't know their procedures for saving an order. Are you suggesting I could somehow get some kind of copy of what they might have?
 
Just a thought ... have you spoken with the owner(s) to discuss the problem, or only an employee.
 
Yes you should have something, a receipt, a work order with a description of the job. Not that this is mandatory, but it is professional behavior.
 
CAframer said:
Just a thought ... have you spoken with the owner(s) to discuss the problem, or only an employee.
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So far, two employees. The owner is not usually there, but will be today. I'll be going in and talking with him this afternoon.
 
RParrish said:
Yes you should have something, a receipt, a work order with a description of the job. Not that this is mandatory, but it is professional behavior.
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I have never received any paperwork at all for any order I have brought here. I only get the receipt from running my credit card when I pick up the finished piece.
 
From their website I get the feeling of a high level of service and professionalism, from what you have said I gat the feeling that all that is indeed a blag and not just a rouge employee but the whole company.

Please update us on your progress, I would be very interested to hear what the owner has to say and what compensation they may offer.
 
I normally don't give a receipt for work left unless requested. In the four years in this location I've only been asked once for a receipt for the work left. I do give out a receipt for payment.
 
In all the years we had our shop, we ALWAYS gave our customers a copy of the work order. That way they knew that they had proof of what was agreed upon. I can't imagine not giving my customer a copy of the work order.

I am not sure how many other frame shops work, but as a person who framed for years, and is now a customer... I would not take my work to a shop that sends the work to another location to do the work. Things get damaged in transit. Things get lost in transit or in the hands of employees who never talk to the customer. You always want to be able to create a working relationship with the person doing the work. It makes both parties more comfortable with doing the work.

Please let us know the outcome.


PS: Ellen, I hope that you get to see the work. If so, I look forward to seeing your thoughts of the possible damage.
 
Susan May said:
In all the years we had our shop, we ALWAYS gave our customers a copy of the work order. That way they knew that they had proof of what was agreed upon. I can't imagine not giving my customer a copy of the work order.
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AMEN. Not giving the customer a copy of the work order is a recipe for disaster, especially when they pick up their work and don't think it was done according to their wishes.

An explicit work order that carefully defines all aspects of the work to be done goes a long way towards avoiding the "they said, we said" disaster. "Carefully defines all aspects of the work" is key. A work order that is incomplete or poorly done is probably worse than no work order.
 
Needleworker. can I just say that you are a dream customer as far as I am concerned. :thumbsup: You lace your own needlework! :smiley: I say this because it is not my favorite job. You also seem very knowledgeable about framing.

I've seen a few framing businesses that are very flashy upfront, but the standard of work is abysmal. The term "whited sepulchre" springs to mind. I could tell horror stories. But I won't..... :shutup:
 
IFGL said:
From their website I get the feeling of a high level of service and professionalism, from what you have said I gat the feeling that all that is indeed a blag and not just a rouge employee but the whole company.

Please update us on your progress, I would be very interested to hear what the owner has to say and what compensation they may offer.
Click to expand...

I am just back from talking to the manager in person. I explained how upset I was that masking tape and packing tape and cardboard had been used on my needlework. He said he had heard and was sorry, and kept offering to redo the work. I showed him the pictures on my camera of the current damage to one of the pieces and said I really didn't trust them with the needlework now. He said he personally would oversee it to make sure no tape would be near the piece. I asked how this could happen in the first place and he said they lost the person that used to do the needlework. I said I think one of the pieces may have been framed as early as 2012 and he said, yes he lost the person quite a while ago. I asked how they normally mount needlework and he said they use some kind of adhesive that doesn't have any acids in it. I said no adhesives of any kind should be near needlework. He said they do lace on, but you have to ask for it. I said I did ask for the unlaced piece to be laced on, and the person helping me knew this and apologized when I called to tell her it had been attached with double sided tape. He wanted to take pictures of my pictures so he could "track down what had happened." I said I could e-mail them to him. I told him I would have to bring the damaged piece to a conservator and he said "I guess so." We didn't talk money yet. I decided I'd go back home and e-mail the pictures and go from there. I also want the conservator quote. I left feeling he did not completely understand the crime committed.

Picture posting to follow...
 
Not giving a copy of the work order has never proven to be a problem for me in the 103 years our family has been framing.

Just sayin'...
 
prospero said:
Needleworker. can I just say that you are a dream customer as far as I am concerned. :thumbsup: You lace your own needlework! :smiley: I say this because it is not my favorite job. You also seem very knowledgeable about framing.

I've seen a few framing businesses that are very flashy upfront, but the standard of work is abysmal. The term "whited sepulchre" springs to mind. I could tell horror stories. But I won't..... :shutup:
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That's nice of you to say. I actually tend to dive in to my hobbies, so I've read extensively on the proper way to frame needlework. I even bought a Vivian Kistler book on framing needlework years ago. So much effort goes in that I wanted to understand what happens in framing. I'm a perfectionist with my work. I thought I was so careful, to have this happen is crazy.
 
Dave said:
Not giving a copy of the work order has never proven to be a problem for me in the 103 years our family has been framing.

Just sayin'...
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Oddly enough giving a copy of the work order has never thrown up any problems for us either, it has however prevented a couple, we go a little bit further and email them the visualisation and work order, just so the customer can show a partner or whatever.
 
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