Plastic Moulding?

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Jim Miller

Jim Miller

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
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Plastic moulding seems to be the framing industry's equivalent of the abortion issue.

I've been asking framers and suppliers about this for several years now. Almost everyone has an absolute opinion based on reasoning they consider bullet-proof, and nothing is going to change their minds.

So, do you say YES to plastic moulding, or NO, or are you among the few UNDECIDED?

Can you add reasons to one or more of these lists?

Reasons to say YES:

1. Lower retail price-points
2. Extremely profitable
3. Consistent, durable finishes
4. Consistent cutting, joining, fitting
5. No warps, blemishes, knots
6. Preservation-friendlier than wood
7. Variety improving
8. Appearance quality improving
9. Light weight
10.

Reasons to say NO:

1. Lower retail price points
2. Limited variety
3. Limited sources
4. Poor appearance quality
5. New & untraditional
6. Difficulty cutting, joining
7. Light weight
8. I hate anything plastic
9. I'm a woodworker, not a plasticworker.
10.

Reasons to be UNDECIDED:

1. Hoping for more variety
2. Hoping for improved quality
3. Hoping for improved distribution
4. Waiting until I learn how to cut/join/fit it
5. Not sure I could sell it
6. Not sure I could work with it
7.

What are your thoughts?
 
I worked with these several years ago when they were first introduced. We built quite a few "prototypes" for a manufacturer here in town.
They cut just fine on the chopper.
We built them with the underpinner and pva glue. The joins held.

One major problem:
Strength. Even a 1 1/2" wide profile tended to bow in all directions on even a not-too-big frame size- say 16 x 20. Maybe the quality varies from manufacturer to manufacturer or maybe the quality is better now overall, but I was not too impressed.
Plus alot of them just look plain cheap.

I wonder how recyclable they are. I hear they are made, at least in part, from "waste" but what about later on? Can they be recycled? I think the same problem exists there as it does with, say, vinyl siding. Yeah, it's cheap-er,affordable- but what happens to it all once it gets discarded? Can't burn it (toxic,) how quickly does it degrade?

Just thinkin' aloud(ish) here.

edie the ineedchocolatenow goddess
 
I'll just stay with the "like 'em" list.

I've got several samples all intregated within the other samples depending on the "look". Like you Jim, I don't mention the lower price, or the fact that it's not wood until the order is written up. Criteria for hanging on my wall? It has to look just as good as anything else up there, and fill a need in design/coloring/style, etc.

I like the fact that they are lighter weight, too. I also price close to the price ranges of what they are like, not depending on their cost, which is always lots less. Therefore, the customer is surprised at the (somewhat less) expense, the lighter weight, and the beauty of the piece. (Although, if it's a environmentally consious customer, I really play up the "non-wood" factor as well!)

The only ones I don't like are the "printed paper" wrapped pieces. They're like, YUCK! Other than that, I like 'em.

Betty
 
Jim,
I still use them for low end small size production jobs. I went through a phase where I was using all sizes, shapes, and finishes, but backed off from anything I cant cut with a chopper. Even with the thin kerf specialty blades the results I got cutting my own on a saw were terrible.
I have a corporate client that uses them on 16x20 posters that they give away for promotional purposes, and they work fine. The same corp also buys large expensive framing, so they know the difference.
I see them as a good value and alternative to OEM metal or commercial grade wooden mouldings. I like the fact that they come in a fixed length, that there is little if any allowances for flaws and they are relatively ding-proof. I don't like the adhesive necessary to join them, and the additional time it takes because of these adhesives. (After reading ETFG's post I will try PVA).
Several years ago at the Atlanta show I saw a line of these mouldings that were manufactured in South Africa that appeared to be of a higher quality than the ones I've seen from England. The plastic had a smaller bubble size (cell?) and the individual lengths were much more rigid. The finishes were comparable to wood based frames and the price and variety was good. It seems to me that they had the sylable "eco" somewhere in their name. Either I overlooked them in September, or they haven't been back.
Are these made from the same polystyrene that is at the core of foam?
 
:confused: :confused: :confused:
Hi Jim Miller. I am one of the undecided. Why? Every one in a while (about once a year), i "kind of" get interested in maybe stocking and selling a few (10-15). I always hear negatives from someone who has sold them in the past or someone who now sells them, but regrets it.

Example is the statement by "Framing Goddess":

"One major problem:
Strength. Even a 1 1/2" wide profile tended to bow in all directions on even a not-too-big frame size- say 16 x 20. Maybe the quality varies from manufacturer to manufacturer or maybe the quality is better now overall, but I was not too impressed.
Plus alot of them just look plain cheap."

(I take their opinion serious, because they DO carry it and regret it or they use to carry it.

>>>Someone told me if i do stock some footage to store them ONLY standing up so they don't warp to much... I don't have the space to store upright... only FLAT.

>>>A custom came in with a 24 x 36 frame a few years ago. The frame was 2 3/4 in wide and the thickest point of the frame was 2". The glass was split neatly down the middle. When she put it on my table, it rocked like a rocker. I cut a notch in it to prove to her it was NOT wood... that it was a type of plastic. She was teed of.
I reframed it for her in a wooden frame similar to what she has in plastic.

Undecided? Absolutely... 60 no/40 yes chance of ever stocking any. If a MAJOR ompany ever guarantees the moulding NOT to warp, IN WRITING (which i would display in my shop), I would start stocking some immediately.

Have they improved in the past 10 years?... I don't know, but, i don't believe.... I am known in my area for the shop that "does NOT carrying that plastic junk"....lol

[ 03-27-2003, 04:58 PM: Message edited by: FrameItEtc ]
 
I won,t be touching it.To me it screams out cheap and nasty.I don,t want it near my shop.

And I can,t light my fire with the offcuts... :eek:
 
I have about a dozen polystyrene mouldings that I use as a "sale saver" when the customer just won't spring for a more expensive style. Haven't have any issues, but then have only used them on mid-to-small frame sizes.

No problems with the chop/join either. Have had issues with availability from time to time, however.

Dave W.
 
We started out with them when they first came on the market. After running the numbers, we found we were short selling ourselves. We also did not like the bow factor and the hassel of dealing with large frames (even though there is a product called Frame Strong which can be used to strenghten these frames). We feel they tend to cheapen our other frames.
 
One thing to consider it health concerns.
My neighbor had plastic "trim" mouldings in her house around doors and baseboards.
The house had a fire that created quite a bit of heat inside the house but did not destroy the home.
The trim moulding created a tremendous amount of toxic gases in the home. It was so toxic that even after the insurance company removed all of the plastic mouldings and cleaned the home they still could not live in the home. Evidently the fumes went into everything... the walls floors ect. The home was leveled and they built a new house.
This trim may not be the same product as picture frame mouldings though.
 
I tried some several years ago when I was still cutting my own, and a more price conscious than I am now. Sent the whole order back.
 
Originally posted by El Framo:
...After running the numbers, we found we were short selling ourselves. We also did not like the bow factor...We feel they tend to cheapen our other frames.
Click to expand...
You've covered the Big Three objections I originally had regarding plastic mouldings.

Here's what I learned:

"Short selling"/Profitability -- If you mark up plastic mouldings the way you do wood & metal, you lose. But if your markup is 8x to 12x, instead of the usual 2x to 4x, then you will find that, compared to wood, the revenue goes down a little (not much) but profit, in both dollars and percent-of-sales, goes waaaay up.

The Bow Factor -- Fitting a plastic frame requires that you completely fill the back (which we would do anyway), and secure the last filler board to the moulding. We use 2" wide, heavy duty, clear polyester packing tape (Sam's Club 6-pack is quite affordable). I still have at home a 30" x 40" extruded polystyrene, 1" wide frame with triple mats, that I built as a test in 1995. It's hanging by a tight wire, from only one wall hook (worst case hanging situation). It still looks like new; no bowing or deflection of the rails.

"Cheapen our other frames"/erodes shop image -- If you offer only a few of the best looking plastic mouldings, and mark them up within 15% to 20% of comparable woods, and display them just as you do wood mouldings, then they will not appear (or be) cheap, and they won't erode the image of your shop.

We routinely build $600.00 frames with plastic mouldings, which our clients select by appearance, not knowing the price. And when they learn that they've saved 10% (about $60), they're ecstatic to buy the better framing for within 10% of the craft store prices.
 
All valid points, but still I just don't see it happening in my store. I guess I am just an old fashioned purist when comes to things like this.
 
TC Moulding has a decent looking line. I looked at them briefly a few weeks ago and will examine them more carefully at the open house next weekend.

I stocked some from Bendix a few years ago and my experience was generally positive.

I like wood, but I'm not a purist. I used to carry a line of "plastic" ovals and circles. People would pick one up, bring it over to me and say, "Is this wood?" My usual smart-alec answer was, "If you have to ask, does it matter?"

Many of the synthetics look very, very good.
 
Fox Moulding has an excellent selection of Emafyl, and a great looking catalog. Nice people to deal with; I buy their wood products. 800-341-0101
 
Originally posted by Reynard:
I will not use them.I would rather deal Ferrari than Fiat.
Click to expand...
Speaking of cars, do you remember the quality of Japanese cars in the 1970s? It was poor. Hondas were a joke, and we'd never heard of Toyota or Datsun. Motorists everywhere said they'd never buy that "cheap Japanese junk".

But within a decade, American car makers were hard pressed to catch up with the Japanese makers...still working on it.

Looking at the 'big picture', that sort of change could happen in framing, as well. Consider:

A) Appearance is the only issue -- the plastics still don't look enough like wood (yet). Quality of the material isn't a problem, except that most framers are unaccustomed to working with it. Indeed, the plastics are superior to wood in terms of profile & finish consistency, ease of handling and storage, and shipping (less weight=less packaging & cost). Not to mention the outrageous price advantage.

B) The quality of wood mouldings is steadily deteriorating. Softer species are being used -- some from major manufacturers are so soft they can't be V-nailed without crushing. Any improvements in sight? No, this trend will most likely continue, as the best woods become more rare and expensive.

C) Wood for moulding comes from all over the world. Tenuous international trade relations are causing more problems for the makers, distributors, and users of wood mouldings. Prices are going higher all the time. Plastic for mouldings is widely available -- often recycled (from milk cartons, perhaps?)

D) As the framing business becomes increasingly competitive at the supply level, moulding manufacturers are pinched for better deals. They're automating, they're using cheaper woods & cheaper finishes. Some are unable to compete, and drop out. Others merge together. A few will emerge as dominant sources. It's already happening, you know. Larson-Juhl is King of the Hill, and a few others are doing very well. On the other hand, do you remember Williamson as a manufacturer? Remember Ivy? Remember the others?

E) Plastic mouldings will continue to improve. As wood mouldings become less and less attractive, plastics will become more and more popular. At one time Emafyl was the only 'real' source for plastics here, but now others are coming up. That will continue, and they will compete.

Don't get me wrong -- I prefer wood mouldings and fully support my sources for them. I stock only a few plastics, and use them with due discretion.

Here's my fearless forecast:
Plastic moulding will be a major factor in custom framing within five years. And we'll all be using them within a decade.
 
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