Oversized Framing

Lisa A

True Grumbler
Joined
Jan 20, 2004
Posts
82
Loc
Haymarket, VA
I'm doing my biggest (both size and $$) framing job yet and just wanted to make sure I've got a reasonable idea of how to do this and am not missing anything.
help.gif


This will be a typical photo framing with a black frame and white mat with 6-8 inch borders and the photo being 32x48 so the package size will be about 46 x 62. I'm looking at using a frame about 1 inch wide and rabbet of 3/8". Glazing will be done with 1/8" non-glare acrylic. Does any of this sound like a problem? There will be 3 of these done for now with more possible later.

I'm looking at some tips on doing something this big, especially b/c my mat cutter maxes out at 5" borders and 60" length so some of the cutting will need to be done by hand. I'll have the acrylic cut by my supplier. I've also factored in using the Frame Straps from Albin to prevent bowing.

Also, the customer's asking about using black metal instead of wood. Is this a possibility or should I just sway them back to wood?

Any help everyone can provide would be much appreciated! :D
 
Lisa, You didn't indicate what type of wood your frame is made of but I think 1" sounds way too skinny for a piece of art that size. Even with plexi and straps. I'd go at least 2" on the frame.

I'd also use 811 tape around the edges of the package to hold the plexi art and backing board together so the plexi won't bow when you are handling it. You can leave just a little 1/8" of tape on the top edge of plexi and it will hide with the frame.

When I work with something that big I try not to turn it upside down to fit. I'll lean it against the table and fit it vertically.

All clear as mud I am sure!

Good luck!
 
LIsa,

I wouldn't any more put a 1" moulding around a piece that large than I would cut a 1/2" mat margin as my default mat width!! That sounds like the photographer's idea rather than yours. They are taught in Photo Framing 101 to always use white mats with black frames and go as cheaply and as small as possible. (Sorry, Anne, if I am stepping on photo-toes here!)

There are a number of reasons why I would never advise doing this, amongst them the fact that a 1" frame that large simply doesn't have the strength to keep from flexing and bowing and you run a chance of damaging the mitered joints by just moving the frame around. Add to that the weight of a piece of plexi that large and you have a disaster waiting for a place to happen. I am not trying to disparage your framing in any way but, have you ever watched some of these photographers handle the framed pieces that they pick up in your shop?? I have seen them pick up a large framed photo by the top frame rail and swing it around as they stand there and talk about how many multi-thousand dollar weddings they have lined up to shoot. (This was after they tried to get a 50% discount on the framing because they had so much "invested" in the special effects photos or the "special" mounting they had to do.)

You are the framer in this situation and they should be made aware that this size frame isn't substantial enough to accomodate a photo, mat, and plexi that large, no matter what they believe&nbspor what they learned in their experiences. Most of what the average photographer knows about custom framing is what they have read somewhere or have been told by other photographers.

I am very short on patience in this area and have made a conscious effort to educate some of the photographers that I frame for in the basics of proportion and the use of something, ANYTHING other than stark white mats inside a stark black frame. Granted, sometimes a white mat in a black frame looks OK with certain photos but I can come up with a better combination of monochrome grays and something like the Ferrosa line from LJ to compliment a B/W studio photo.

For heaven's sake don't use one of those skinny black aluminum poster frames on that piece!! I really don't know what to tell you concerning the size and style of moulding to use as I would want to see what it is going on before suggesting anything. But I would try to get this customer to accept a larger profile frame for this job for this reason: if something goes South with the job later on, you can bet that the photographer will NOT take the responsibility for choosing the frame and will send the customer back to the framer with fire in their eyes looking for a free replacement!

I have to say that this is all simply my personal opinion and doesn't reflect on the professional photography field as a whole but I have seen some really good professional photographers that didn't know diddly squat about the very basics of proper framing of their work.

Framerguy
 
Lisa,
I feel I must add my 2 cents worth here too...95% of these folks here have got mucho years experience on me...note..not years older...just a whole lot more experience....but even with my baby knowledge of framing...that 1" molding is not going to work at all....the weight is a killer. Steer that customer away from that tiny molding fast...they will thank you for it. And framerguy is right about photographers and their so called knowledge...I do a good bit of framing for the company I work for (photograpy..hey wait a second...I'm a photographer too) and I have to beat them over the head about the same stuff that Framerguy was talking about....they are beginning to come around to my way of thinking as far as framing go. But seriously....I would be scared to death of that one......simply because of the weight and the mitred corners...not to speak of the athestic?? property....Good Luck ,
Sherry
 
Lisa,
Everyone has made some very good points. The only thing I can add would be to use 3/16 or 1/4 plex to reduce bowing and add some strength.
 
A black metal frame would work very well for this type of project because it will hold the weight, especially if you use a Nielsen profile 99 or 97 and there are many interesting textures besides just a flat black.
 
One thing that nobody has mentioned is that of the mat. Are you going to be able to get a mat larger than 40 x 60? Crescent makes one that is 46 x 96 but the big question is can you get one and do you want to pay for shipping on one? Otherwise you will have to splice mats which is not fun.

Good luck
 
I recently had to cut a mat that was about 30 x 65, with a 60" mat cutter. The biggest PIA was cutting the outside dimensions of the mat, since our wall cutter only went to 60". What I did was order the plexi in already cut to size by the distributor (I think most of them will do that) since I couldn't cut that myself anyway. and then I laid the cut piece of plexi on top of the mat and basically traced the outline, of course double checking that the plexi was cut properly and square, so I basically had a template, and I think I even used the plexi as my straight edge to cut the mat. Then came the fun part of cutting the opening, our mat cutter, an older C&H, (and I think a lot of the mat cutters will also do this) can be disassembled. What I ended up with, by undoing 4 big bolts, was the cutter head on the bar, so all you need is someone to help you hold it straight and you can cut the long sides manually and straight. It worked for me, although the whole process created a huge headache.
faintthud.gif
But the mat looked nice!
 
How are the photos going to be mounted & to what substrate?
What thickness matting to be used?
1 inch wide metal might be stronger that 1 inch wide wood...depends on kind and depth of each.
Non-glare acrylic
faintthud.gif


The mount needs to be fairly rigid, and the mat of sufficient depth so there is no casual contact between the photo emulsion and the glazing...that is difficult to attain with a standard thickness matboard.

Assuming you are going to have 1/4" between the surface of the print and the glazing, you should expect a certain amount of dissipation of the image as it passes through the non-glare surface resulting in a loss of clarity.

Unless you are using a deep 1 inch wood frame and a strainer, you are probably under-engineered. That size frame will bow and twist easily resulting in all kinds of woes...esp. with the ng acrylic.

I started this last night, and see that many of the salient points have been covered. As you can see you might want to reevaluate the project from a more pragmatic point of view.
 
Thank you all for your suggestions.
thumbsup.gif
I will do some searching for a wider moulding, I was hoping to stick with my local distributor for shipping purposes but they may not have what I need. It sounds like metal is an option, I don't normally do metals though and am hesitant to start with something so big. I could do a 1" moulding with a 1 1/8" rabbet if that would help. Wally had mentioned a deeper frame might make a difference.

These pictures are going in the photographer's own home so I think the choices are based more on his preference than anything else though money is a factor with many people. I didn't mention that they are also going to be hung at the top of a wall with a 35 ft ceiling thus the motivation to "skimp" on the frame. But I will steer him towards something more substantial to support it better.

As for the acrylic, my local distributor only carries the 1/8" thickness but I'll look into the shipping from elsewhere to see if 1/4" is an option. Regarding the ng acrylic, is this harder to work with than standard and UV acrylic? I'd prefer they use UV and my local distributor only carries one or the other. Any other advice on this?

The mats come in 48 x 72 from Crescent so it is available this big but it only comes in white so there's not much choice on colors there. My local distributor carries it so I can get local delivery on that. It is a 4 ply and is the thickest I've seen available. Wally, I could push for a double mat if you really think I need 1/4" of space. I'd rather not b/c of the height this will hang, it won't be as clear that far from the glazing, especially with non-glare.

The customer has to get the photo printed and agreed to have it mounted at the same time onto foam core. Since I haven't done anything like this before, will there be other options at a print shop to have it mounted onto? I had planned to put something else behind it (not sure what yet) to further support the photo and frame.

This job is not going to be started for another month so we've just done a ballpark estimate while the photo is printed and mounted. We will firm up the choices then so I've got the option to offer some other options then.

Thanks again for everyone's help!!
smileyshot22.gif
 
It is all up to the customer, but I would attack the photo first as a print transfer with a UV blocking protective coat and do away with the need for the glazing.

Second I would fabric wrap a 4" or 5" liner which acts like a strainer.

Lastly, that 1" [I'm assuming face measurement] black frame hung at the top of a 35' high wall is going to look like a small pencil line. 2.25" or 3" would show better. But either way you will have "BEEF" to hang from.

The print transfer will probably cost about the same as the OP-3 but no glare or reflection.

But then, this is just IMHO. :D
 
Just some additional thoughts on the mounting of the photos. If you supply the foamcore cut to the proper size and marked with the exact position that the photos should be mounted, you may save yourself some additional headaches. If the printer mounts the photos, will he know how much foamcore to leave around the photos to allow for the matboard when you cut it? It would save you alot of work if you did this instead of having to inlay the undersized mounted photo into a properly sized foamboard or having to build up around the outer perimeter of the photo mount that is mounted to another foamboard for rigidity.

FGII
 
Lisa,
Non-glare acrylic is very easy to work with. It just happens to look terrible. It might be just a tad fuzzier than the olde tyme etched-on-both-sides non-glare glass that us olde tyme fraymers used when we began our illustrious careers. In any case, I would check out AR acrylic as well.

I have used acrylic up to 48 x 96 in regular old point 100 thickness (.100)- I think that is what we know as 1/8". I have had no problems with bowing or flexing. But I do make a point to use beefy frames- no way to skimp there. When acrylic gets thicker, btw, it gets VERY HEAVY. Be aware. Another reason for a substantial frame.

Metal frames are Supa Easy to use for a project like this. You'll wonder why you haven't used them before. Use the thicker profiles like what Nona suggested. The 'double-walled' profiles are the only ones I'd consider.

Also, if you need more space between the art and the glazing, why not raise that 4 ply mat up a bit? It is an easy and painless way to buy a bit of breathing room. Plus it could give you more room than a double mat if you float the mat up with 3/16" fome core scrap strips. You could also use spacers, but I find that application very unstable with a mat and it's just plain a pain to do. The raised mat is much more sensible and solid. Keep in mind that your mat will have to come in on the image a bit if it is to 'bleed' so that any edge will not show. And do make sure your frame is deep enough, but you already knew that.

If your customer is entertaining the notion of a mat other than white, the only reasonable option is to wrap one of those monster mats with fabric. It's a beautiful thing, don't shy away from it and you can charge good money for it. And it looks it.

If your customer is planning to bring the photos in mounted, fome core is fine. Some places use gator board, but it is much heavier and better suited to be used without a frame. I have tried, always unsuccessfully, to get those photo labs to mount photos on a board as big as the ouside size of the mat, but they don't seem to understand the concept. You could be the first to see this happen! Go for it!

And like Emibub mentioned, think about dust-sealing the piece all the way around, it will make your life easier. But, then again, we do this on all the pieces we do.

Good luck,

edie the oversizepiecesareyourfriend goddess
 
Much great input here from many experienced friendly framers. A few points to re-iterate or elaborate on:

I would use either 1/2" fom board, 1/4" gator board or minimally Bainbridge's Smooth Mount Hvy duty foam core. It's compared to gator board in it's hype, but my experience shows it is not near as rigid, but superior to regular fom board. It is relatively lighter weight than gator board and about half the price, but I wouldn't skimp on materials on this one.

Do not be afraid of quality metal frames. They are more rigid than most woods of comparable size, easier to assemble/disassemble and would prove to be a good option for this project. You can also easily put stays in to keep the package from bowing.

Even though you may be trying to keep the price down to win over any competitive bidding or to ensure you get the future jobs, build in a 10-20% upcharge to cover the unforseen problems you could encounter and the additional shipping to secure materials from other suppliers. There will be unforseen situations arise as you work with this project...I guarantee it.

If he/she customer hasn't addressed who is going to hang the project, do it now. It's too easy to offer to hang it and not charge unless addressed early in the process.

Disassembling your mat cutter, clearing off your bench, etc. to accommodate such a large job takes time. You must factor in the fact that large jobs, either quantity or size, present special problems and must be factored in.

Customers honor us by bringing in jobs that take special expertise to finish. We should always approach the job with confidence, research what we don't know and price the job in such a way that the next time they bring in such a project we are happy to see them because the prior job was profitable. Don't be afraid to quote what is reasonable in order to do the job profitably considering all factors. If they don't want to spend an amount needed to cover your costs (which you do need to understand what costs are involved) and provide a reasonable profit, let them go to your "friendly competitors"...you don't need the business that bad to interrupt your normal work flow and not make a profit or lose on the job.

Don't be rushed into delivering an exact quote. You need to understand all the costs involved before quoting anything as it is extremely difficult to add costs after quoting a job.

Each time we take on a new challenge, we learn something in the process which helps us for future work. It is hard to justify having the customer pay for our learning process, that's the dues we pay to become more proficient in our work. Research every question you have concerning this project. We have a wonderful resource in this forum with many, many experienced framers and other professionals generous with their knowledge and life experience.

Good luck and go for it!

Dave Makielski
 
The thoughts of everyone else here are very good, and I doubt I can add much other than I hate non-glare plexi. My experience(although somewhat limited) is that it will distort the heck out of your image when not viewed straight on. Seeing as how it will be hanging high on the wall it will always be viewed from below, thus your distortion will be tremedous.

I'm sure there's someone with more experience in this area than me, but it is something that you ought to think about.

Good Luck, and let's remember that not all photographers are idiots, :mad: many of them are just uneducated in the framing arena. (ok, so that's a touchy spot for me)
 
I just did 2 pieces sized at 48x68 and used 1/4" plexi on them. The plexi alone weighed over 30 pounds. Personally, 1/8" plexi is too thin for what you are going to do here.
On another note, if the customer insists on a 1" wood frame add a sheet of 1/8" luan plywood to the back of the frame to stiffen it into a solid package. Solves the bowing problem and the weakness of the joints.
 
Such great advice! Thanks again! :D

I'm definitely leaning more towards a nice wide metal for this project, it'll be much easier transportation-wise too. Nona mentioned profiles 97 and 99 but these seem pretty small. As Baer said, up that high, it'll look pretty miniscule. My Nielsen rep isn't back till next week but in the meantime, are there any other metal profiles that are wider than 2"?

It doesn't seem like the non-glare plexi is going to be a good option at this height and I'd rather push for OP3 UV for this one. I'm interested in the print transfer though. Can anyone give me the name of a company that does this or is it pretty readily available everywhere?

The customer requested a white mat so I'll feel it out for other colors but will probably forgo fabric wrap. I am getting ready to do another picture that way so all the fabric talk is sinking in.


I'll push for the picture to be printed in the very center of the foamcore the same size as the package but I don't think it will happen. I'm not sure that foam core is even available this large so I may be stuck filling in the space with foam core strips anyway.
 
I am also doing two oversized frames. A woman who just published her first book is having two uncut sheets (25x38 ea.) of her book pages and her bio/picture proof (15x20) framed. Her husband came up with three design ideas. Their preference, #1, have all three elements framed together. Size: 46x85. They feel this will best communicate that the three pieces belong together. Design #2, my preference, is to have three separate frames. Besides the fact that it will eliminate frame and mat obstacles I think it would'nt look so massive on the wall and would still say that they belong together. Design #3, to have a framed with twelve right angles, shaped like a short 'H'. IX NEY! They only have 90" width available on the wall.
 
The Nielsen Elements, profile 41 measure 1 1/2 inches wide and comes in a Wrought Iron, which is a nice textured black.

I stack several metals together to get the width I need. I used three profile 99's, set one inside the other and each is 1 3/8th inch wide. I have a picture of it, but have no idea how to get it to this forum. I tried pasting but that didn't work. The frames are held together with Omni hangers placed in the channel backwards.

I hate to disagree with the Frame Lady but personally I really like UV filtering non glare acrylic sheeting. I'm looking at a piece on my wall that is at an angle and it still shows well. I use Cyro and because the etching is only on one side I think it has more clarity than non glare glass. Customers love non glare because it does work to cut the glare and sells for a lot more than regular glass. I know lots of framers don't like it, but I do and thank goodness so do my customers.
 
Just finished my largest to date in time for Christmas. It was 30"x72". I hinged onto rag bonded to gator. The frame was a 2.5" wood in a very beefy profile. Glazing was .118 OP-3. Double matted with Crescent white rag.

Everything went very well except the mat cutting. My biggest cutter is a 60" so I first tried a scheme of detaching the cutter to allow the mat board to be slipped in (cutting a hole out of the cutout to allow the bolts to be reinserted before the cut). Didn't work too well as I didn't properly align the two cuts and had an incomplte cut area which I botched up. For my next try I hauled out a Dexter (with which I'm not experienced) and giant straight edge and cut it on the floor - got an accptable outer mat. Attached a piece for the inner and somehow got a very uneven reveal - tore the inner separating from the outer and ended up getting the best look by flipping the inner over for a reverse bevel. Resolved not to accept anything over 60" again!!!!

Bottom line is that at this size the gator was plenty stiff, the OP-3 wasn't bowing, the frame appeared plenty stiff, and the print laid flat with normal hinging.

Steve
 
Back
Top