Overdue introduction and VN42 question

[ComputerGuy]

Hello! My name is Dan and I've been a member for a while and found the G to be valuable source of information. I've been framing part-time out of my home for a little over a year and a half. In real life, I work as an Information Technology professional in the financial services industry where there's always an emergency or problem to deal with. My kids are grown and on their own. I had some spare time on my hands, so I started doing contract framing for artist that my wife and I have known for years. I enjoy it and have learned a lot in the last year or so. It gives me a creative outlet, provides immediate satisfaction of a job well done and helps relieve the stresses of my day job. Over the course of a year, I probably average about 50 framed pieces a month, but during peak months the numbers double. I've found that good equipment makes a huge difference in quality and saves me time. I retired a morso chopper after purchasing an Inmes 30MP saw earlier this year. I don't miss the chopper or the time lost puttying chipped corners.

After fighting and cursing a well-abused ITW Amp VN2+1 for some time, I just bought a new VN42. It's so quiet by comparison that I wasn't sure it was working at first. In some respects, I'm finding the new machine to be less flexible that I had expected. The fixed position of the vertical clamp is less than ideal when joining sloped, reversed, or rounded profiles. When inserting more than 2 v-nails in a frame, I find it difficult to insert the 3rd or 4th v-nails in precise locations without resetting the stops. I can move the hand-lever anywhere between the stops, but it seems that I'm just guessing where the v-nail might get inserted.

Are there any tips or tricks that you VN 42 owners could share for dealing with these issues?

Thanks in advance,

Dan

 

[Jeff Rodier]

Dan,

You have one of the best pieces of equipment with out spending an insane amount of money. You will learn with some time and practice the best use of it. You will find that it is important as to the order in which you insert the nails. For example on a wide scoop I like to fire my first hail all the way forward and sometimes another forward nail before jumping to the outside edge to insert a double stack. This will keep the moulding from rolling and prying the joint open.

Now as far as giving any real advice if you post a picture of the moulding I can tell you how I would nail it.

Also welcome to The Grumble.

 

[Jim Miller]

One key to successful underpinning is to keep the vertical clamp directly above the insertion point. If the fastener is driven into the bottom of the joint behind or in front of the clamping point, the moulding pieces tend to twist, making the joint open on the top or on the bottom.

That is why Jeff said the order of insertion points is important, to avoid the twisting tendency. My recommendation is to re-set the clamp between insertion points, so that it is directly above each insertion point. That is impossible for some profiles, but do the best you can. I used to have a collection of pad-spacers I made up for certain mouldings.

The VN-42 is a fine machine, as Jeff said. I enjoyed using mine for a decade or so before selling it about four years ago, in favor of a Fletcher/Pilm CornerPro 5700. The basic design is very similar, as both are Italian machines. The reason I made the switch is mainly because the 5700 has two vertical clamps, which share a single reservoir of hydraulic fluid, so they are self-leveling. That means the front and back edges of the moulding pieces are clamped tightly, so there is no chance of them twisting. The 5700 also enables changing fastener sizes without using a tool, and has some other pneumatic goodies.

If you run searches for terms like "underpinner", "clamp", and "joining", you should find plenty of good advice.

 

[ComputerGuy]

Jeff & Jim,

Thanks for your replies and explanations. I really appreciate it! After thinking about your explanations and some of the challenges that I had with the previous underpinner, I realize that some of the problem was how I was using the machine. I'm beginning to realize that what I'm interpreting as limitations of this machine (primarily a bolt-on pad that is fixed directly above the v-nail insertion point) is a feature intended to produce consistent results. The VN2+1 allowed me move the pad up, down, forward & back. I'm not sure, but the VN4L might have this feature as well. I had a tendency to center the pad, so that I could drive all 3 (sometimes 4) v-nails with moving the pad. I understand now that this was causing some of my problems!

For the most part, I'm getting excellent joins with the VN42. I'm probably just dealing with a learning curve and maybe even a bit of buyers remorse. I have a considerable investment in Fletcher tools (a 2200 mat cutter; 3000 wall-mount cutter, fillet cutter/master, and various hand tools); and I considered the 5700 mostly on Jim's frequent recommendations. But, I also had some investment in ITW Amp parts (extension wings, heads, pads, etc) that would interchange with my new machine. Their year-end blow-out sale was the deal maker for me.

As a part-time framer that also works a full-time job, I find myself working two jobs during busy months. I'm frequently in the position of having to complete 12-25 pieces over 2-3 evenings (or if I'm lucky, a weekend). While I like being busy, I also need some down-time!

So what I'm seeking is advice on how to be more efficient with this machine without sacrificing quality. Most of my work is for an artist that uses a half-dozen different frames, so I keep a chart for each frame where I record the set-up information (v-nail size, stop locations, pad type/height, and exact locations of v-nails in-between stops). I'm finding it difficult to insert v-nails in exact locations without resetting the stops (and god help me if I need to stack v-nails in-between stops). I've been experimenting with spacers of different widths that I can set next to the the front & rear stops on the VN42 for v-nails are driven in-between. Am I being too anal-retentive here?

Jim - You mentioned that you made a collection of pad spacers. Can you expand upon that?

Dan

 

[Jeff Rodier]

Time to take off the computer hat. Pads should only be necessary on very rare occasions. Post a photo of the moulding profiles or list manufacturers numbers and I will give you the sequence.

Now as far as your between stops piece, unless you are joining some crazy profiles you don't have to be very precise.

Show me your profiles and I will make life easy on you. Don't rethink your purchase because you made a good decision. I have used a lot of v-nailers in the last 25 years and each one needs to be used the way it is designed to get great results.

 

[Richard Darling]

Jeff & Jim,
I'm finding it difficult to insert v-nails in exact locations without resetting the stops (and god help me if I need to stack v-nails in-between stops)...Am I being too anal-retentive here?
Dan

In a word - yes. I think you're over-thinking it. The only downside, as I see it, to not having precise locations for each nail is if you decide you want to go back and add a nail somewhere between the front and back stop locations. But if you drive the nails you need the first time, you don't have to go back. I decide how many nails I want, then start firing, moving the driver a little each time.

 

[Jeff Rodier]

I keep a chart for each frame where I record the set-up information (v-nail size, stop locations, pad type/height, and exact locations of v-nails in-between stops). I'm finding it difficult to insert v-nails in exact locations without resetting the stops (and god help me if I need to stack v-nails in-between stops). I've been experimenting with spacers of different widths that I can set next to the the front & rear stops on the VN42 for v-nails are driven in-between. Am I being too anal-retentive here?

Jim - You mentioned that you made a collection of pad spacers. Can you expand upon that?

Dan

You should be able to grab any chop and place a v-nail against the mitered end and know how many and where you are going to place them. No charts needed. Don't think you need a dozen of those things in a corner either. Use good glue and you don't need to worry. I like Corner Weld because it has a plasticizer in it so the joints don't snap if the frame gets bumped or twisted.

Also it sounds like when you stack nails you are allowing the plunger to raise off the moulding. The plunger button is a two stage button. A gentle press of the button lowers the plunger to clamp the moulding down. A further push of the button fires the nail. When double stacking don't allow the plunger to raise off of the moulding. Do this by only releasing a small amount of pressure on the thumb button then pressing down again. Any time the plunger raises off of the corner the next nail won't stack.

I would still like to see the profiles before you go rigging corner pads. I have joined thousands of frames out of 200 styles of moulding this past year with the same piece of equipment and only use a pad on one because it is a thin gesso on basswood. I have a plywood triangle with 1/2' styrofoam ATGed to it.

Check out the Frame Selection page of my website to see what I'm joining with it.

 

[ComputerGuy]

Time to take off the computer hat.

LOL. Thanks! I do have a tendency to over-think it. I've had a little more time to use the machine and I think I'm getting the hang of it. Learning where the thumb-button catches and releases takes some getting used to. I'm going to attempt to attach a couple of pictures of the profiles giving me problems. Since the L-shaped pressure plate is fixed, I'm finding that it seldom makes full contact with the frame when joining profiles are aren't relatively flat. In some cases, only the edge of the rubber pad touches the frame; especially those frames in pic1. Pic2 is less troublesome, but only the edge of the rubber pad touches the frame when joining the outside edge; leaving much of the pad unsupported.

Dan

 

[Jim Miller]

Jim - You mentioned that you made a collection of pad spacers. Can you expand upon that?
Dan

As Jeff said, special pads are usually not required. But when you have difficulty, they help a lot. I might use a special pad on each of the three mouldings in your first photo, but certainly not on the other two.

If the four small marks on the miter of one profile pictured represent insertion points, you're probably using too many fasteners. You need to use enough to hold the moulding together tightly while the glue dries and to prevent catastrophic failure if the glue ever fails. But too many insertion points would only work as wedges to open the outside corners of your miter joints. Also, sometimes stacking fasteners opens up the top of a miter joint, especially if the fasteners have "pulling power" geometry that makes them "blossom" when stacked. When stacking, it's better to use straight-side fasteners.

The first spacer-pads I used were purchased from a supplier (perhaps Larson Juhl?) more than a decade ago. Those eventually fell apart, so I made more-stout replacements. They were simple, really. I would post pictures, but I sold them with my VN-42, because I no longer have any use for them with my CornerPro 5700.

Start with some right-triangles (90/45/45 degrees) about 6" on the long side. Cut them out of a smooth-surfaced, rigid material, such as 1/4" clear acrylic, Masonite, or Sintra (PVC sheet). I like clear acrylic because it is transparent and I have scraps. Whatever material you choose, smooth all edges carefully.

Trim acrylic or hardwood "slats" about 3/8" thick x 1" wide x the length of the triangle's short sides. Miter the slats vertically, like a tiny shadowbox moulding, and attach two of them along the bottom of one triangle's 90-degree edges. Be sure to attach them securely using glue and screws/nails, because they will be stressed in use.

Neatly round off the bottom edges and cover the area that would contact the moulding using felt, flexible vinyl, Volara foam tape, or other soft material to avioid marring the moulding's finish. The finished assembly's profile looked something like this:

______ (edge view of triangle)
[

I also cut additional triangles out of 4-ply and 8-ply board, to use as pads under the assembled spacer.

When I had to join a moulding like the one on the middle of your photo, I placed the padded, rounded vertical slats of my spacer pad in the lowest part of the profile, and the triangle to which they were attached usually did not touch the moulding. To fill the area under the triangle and make contact with the high spot on the inside edge of the profile, I added flat triangles of various paperboard thicknesses to fill the gap. Then I joined as usual, placing the clamp pad on top of the triangle. That way, almost-equal pressure was applied to the low spot and the high spot of the profile, eliminating the need to re-set the clamp between insertions.

I also made another configuration consisting of an "L" shaped flat material, with the vertical slats placed on the inside edges of its bottom. That spacer pad would have been used on the moulding shown on the far left of your photo. The padded slats would nest in the low spot of the profile, and I would pad the flat part of ther spacer to make contact with the high spot on the outer edges of the moulding's profile.

I'm sure some Grumblers have similar spacer pads. Maybe someone will post pictures.

 

[Jeff Rodier]

Dan,

Throw the computer out and get a typewriter. Don't worry about the pad not being flush. The edge will hold it in place and not damage the moulding. The first photo is 2 in the high spot and one in the low. I would also use 1 or 2 singles in between depending on width. I use medium/hard wood nails on everything. No reason for the "Pulling Power" nails.

When I join delicate finishes I usually turn the pressure down to 60. Most items I join at 70 PSI. Hard woods such as Ramin, oak and ash I join at 90 PSI. Super hard woods such as walnut or maple I go up to 100 PSI. The nob on the base of the machine will allow you to adjust pressure with a small twist.

Only the very edge of the pad needs to be on the moulding. I like to place my first nails in the point that will be held the tightest. When you have a wide high spot that is often times a good place to start. The Swan or Reverse I would double stack my high point first. Then one forward and one back.

The scoop with the very high outer edge I would insert the single nail all the way forward first the one a little back and finallly double stack the outer edge. This would hold the miter closed since the outer edge might cause the moulding to roll out.

You don't need a ton of v-nails but on some of the smaller mouldings I might insert in 3 points because I often times fit the piece before the glue is dry. If the art package protrudes out the back a little I never fit before the joint is dry because the pressure used to insert the points tend to open up the inside edge of the joint.

You have very simple profiles with the exception of one so you are overthinking it. The pad will grip the frame with just a fraction of it making contact. Just nail a steady point first.

Drop that plunger down on top of your finger one time and you will believe in the holding power.

Use good glue. Try Corner Weld. it's $45 per gallon but well worth it. I don't use enough for it to ooze out. I rarely wipe any glue with the exception of the bottom side of the moulding. Pay attention to how much glue oozes out and adjust the amount you apply. I apply so the glue will ooze almost out but not quite. If you use cheap glue (standard wood glue without a plasticizer)you want it to ooze out everywhere because it is very brittle and will crack with the slightest bump.

You don't need any pads to join these just a little practice and confidence. Get used to the button and you will be good as gold.

 

[MJ The Romaboy]

I've used this machine before and find it to be very effective. Never had a problem getting excellent results. Also, I prefer the straight hardwood v-nails, especially when stacking. I've never found it necessary or even beneficial to insert nails at more than 3 locations, perhaps 4 on an extremely wide profile. Nothing under 2" ever needs more than 2 insertion points as far as I'm concerned. Just don't see the benefit of multiple locations as long as you're applying adequate glue to the mitre and allowing the frame to dry before fitting. Sounds like you have more volume than a lot of full-time framers in my territory, so you must be doing something right. I've always enjoyed the gratification of completing a nice project and admiring the result, too, and it probably adds a nice balance to your work in the computer industry. Good luck in both your careers.