Out gasing in a shadow box

JPete

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
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Huron SD USA
What ever it is, a film is created in the area of a hand carved wooden cane. I know so many different materials shouldn't be in a box together but only the area of the cane and an old glasses case have the film, out-gassing etc..

This piece is about 5 years old and has a doll, watch, rings, copper bracelet, small jackknife and possibly a few more like items. The cane is old and so is everything else. Can't tell you what the wood is. Any solutions other than refitting every 5 years. I doubt they would want to seal the cane but that is the only thing I can think of doing that might help. Any suggestions.

It's one of those love hate jobs. Hate to do it but love how it looks when it is done.
 
JPete -
My guess is that the culprit is the copper bracelet that is "out-gassing" and might be attracted to the area of the cane for some strange reason.
shrug.gif
 
Perhaps it is not "out-gassing" at all, the issue could possibly be more to do with light than gas. Consider that all glass will condense a film of moisture under the proper conditions, even an expensive sealed watch crystal.

Light wave lengths reflecting off an object, then back through the glass, could affect how that moisture is distributed on the glass.

Your "film" could just be that the cane and eyeglass case are darker than the other objects in the box. The light reflected is a different temperature than the reflected light from the other objects. This is what causes "ghosting" on the glass when you take apart very old framing jobs.

Even when a framed picture is kept in relatively subdued light conditions, the reflecting light waves continue to have an effect. If you can see an object, light waves are present.

If your looking for "out-gassing" consider visiting an old folks home.


John
 
When you take the glass out and look at the inside with oblique light... can you see the shadows of everything or just some of the things....

Those are probably your culpurets.

BTW: is the backing Moorman board? If so, it off-gasses sulpherdioxide and reacts with copper...
 
JRB, I like your explanation, these are the two objects closest to the glass. Would Conservation glass help the problem? It is in a bedroom with a north window but quite possilbe there is a large mirror.

I haven't taken it apart yet but will check all areas when I do. Moorman suede. Does off-gassing look different than ghosting? The cane is not straight and it follows all of the curves but is larger than the object and I suppose in time would get even larger. Thanks for info so far.

Jeannette
 
The term "out-gassing" is relatively new to our industry. I do not know who first started using it, or when. It sounds like something that came from one of those PPFA certification tests. I think it falls in the same category as not letting a score in your glass "heal". In other words, it is probably true to a certain degree, but who really gives a s---?

Patterns and films on glass are caused by condensation and light, not gas. Unless you want to call un-condensed water, gas. There isn't any "out" in that though.

Shadow boxes tend to show this phenomenon much faster than regular, mats or pictures, directly against the glass, type of framing. This is because the mats will absorb a lot of the condensation. Also, when a ghost is very close to the colors that are being mimicked, it is very hard to see them.

The ghosting will be incredibly accelerated if any part of the object in the shadow box is actually making contact with the glass.

Most shadow boxes must be re-opened and cleaned every five to ten years, depending on what part of the country you are in.

Believe me, it is not some strange manner of sorcery, it's just water condensing, then drying, then condensing, over and over again.

John
 
Acids, whatever, the vehicle is water, condensing and drying repeatedly. All of it is based on light, and light wave lengths, just like the acids used in photography. Just clean the glass, no need to turn it into rocket science.

John
 
Not rocket science John, bio-chemistry.. and no, it wasn't a PPFA flyer or as nebulous as "healing" glass.

Off gassing was first discovered in Gallileo's (I know I butchered his name) time.

You and I discovered it with the little carbide cannons. Put the little chunk of calcium carbide in the chamber with water, which ACCELLERATES the breaking down of the carbonite and calcium creating a crude but effective actalyn gas, which when ignited went bang.

Off-gassing has become a very important [and I dread the term "buzz word"] concideration in many things.

The entire particle board industry is being revamped because of the formadihyde off-gasing out of cabnitry in houses.

Carpet that was made in the 60s-80s had to "air" in warehouses because of the serious off-gassing of the the Olefone Nitril.

That "new car smell" is Off-gasing of many of the components from the foam in the seats to nylon in the fabrics to the insulation of wires. Much of that is being changed so much these days that some cars don't have that smell.... but they do have that weird "fog" that collects on the highly slanted front and rear windows that is such a bitch to get off...

Condensation can and does play a part.... but isn't THE culprit. We have some shadowboxes that get displayed every so often at the shop. They were put together and never reopened since the late 70s. No fog, on condensation, no problems. And they get stuck in the south facing windows most of the time. And they also DO NOT have any Moorman board. [Ragboard and real fabric.]

Hopefully in maybe another 30-50 years, framing will have a serious conversation about the "other" end of the scale. People are so focused on pointing an accusitorial finger at the "5" that they miss the point about 9 and 10.

Mount a Tums in a shadowbox and stick it in a south facing window for a few months...especially with museum glass..... :D
 
I hardly ever frame Tums in shadowboxes. I think we are back to, who really gives a s---. I remain convinced that all you have to do is clean the glass.

John
 
So Baer, sorry....maybe it was the LONG weekend doing art shows, but I missed why you think that your shadowboxes from the late '70's never had a condensation problem, or other cause for making the glass 'yucky'!? Is that because they might have been stored 'every so often' in a dark place?
 
Sherry,

I could be wrong, I'm sure Baer will have his own thoughts on the subject, but one possiblility is that the framing materials (ragboard, washed fabric)are not outgassing and contributing to the problem. And the items displayed are stable.

Unfortunately, artworks/objects themselves can cause ghosting on glazing because of their own degradation products, regardless of the quality of framing materials. Products like Artcare, with zeolites can help, but there is never total certainty.

Rebecca
 
Thanks Rebecca, yes Sherry, I was drifting and wasn't totally clear. Between the ragboard, and neutral fabrics...and I'm not sure I was washing them back then ..... and I know that Shar wasn't but they have exsibited no off-gassing over the years.

And no, hiding anything in the closet solves nothing.... [BTW does anyone want a signed Keene poster??? :D ]
Although it did possibly make up for the months of intense 40,000+ lumins they were subjected to in the display windows.....

Just an interesting side note about that... many of them were done with plain glass... the interesting point is, all of the ones that were done on a regular matboard... the mat color is gone.... all of the fabrics still match the current swatches within the varience of a 1 or 2 degree dye-lot shift.
 
From the description of the items included in the
frame, it sounds as if the cane may be nearest to
the glass. It is likely that the wood in the cane
is side grain and is sealed, so emissions from the
wood is not likely to be causing the deposit on
the glass, rather, the mass of the wood may be
heating and cooling differently from the glass
(as has been suggested) as light comes and goes
and that may be resposible for pulling material
out of the glass. Emission of pollutants in frames
is commonly seen at the margins of poor quality boards, near sulfurous materials, end grain wood,
and areas next to oxidizing metals.


Hugh
 
WOW! After reading input from Hugh, Rebecca & Baer, it sounds like there really is no way to prevent this "revolting development" and opening up the shadowbox to clean the glass at intervals
faintthud.gif
is the only answer - as of this day, Oct. 31, 2005 (until science discovers a better approach).

Interesting topic! Thanks!!
 
To me it sounds like condensation due to temperature differences.

It could be the heat/cold of the wall conducting through the framed objects.
I'd try mitigate this by adding an insulating layer to the back of the frame package and creating a larger air gap with slacker wire and stacked felt bump-ons.

A sealed package with dessicant would help.

I wonder if hiding some pebbles inside the package would provide an 'alternative site' for the condensation to form? :confused:

Of course, we don't know what the film is that's being left behind. It could be out-gassed stuff, or maybe the moisture is harboring lifeforms! :eek:

Hopefully, the film cleans right up. It could be the first sign of corrosion. glass corrosion
 
More facts: Cleaned the glass, only on the cane and glass case area. Came right off. The cane is a carved branch, no seal on it. I'm convinced it's moisture condensation. It looks as good as when it was first put together. We will suggest the air gap and put more bumpers on the back for air space, tell them about the light and let them know they can expect a cleaning again in 5 years.

This was nothing like the old stoles from China with gold thread we did years ago. The complete glass on those was bad within a year. I'll have to ask the customer if those are still framed or if they put them back in moth balls. Maybe with new conservation methods they will think of reframing them.

Thanks for all of your input and a speacial thanks to Capt'n English for ignoring spelling etc.
 
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