Order in which you specify frame dimensions?

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more_so

more_so

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
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Pretend you are a gallery owner and you have a wide panoramic photograph that is in a frame 40 inches wide and 16 inches tall. You want to make a label. What is the correct way to describe the dimensions...

1. 16 x 40, you give the short dimension first.
2. 16 x 40, you give the height based on image orientation first.
3. 40 x 16, you give the width based on image orientation first.
4. 40 x 16, you give the biggest dimension first.
5. It doesn't matter.

There seem to be many opinions on this, would like to hear yours. THX.
 
40" wide x 16" high.

Leave no room for interpretation as to whether it is in portrait or landscape mode. The order doesn't matter; the only thing that matters is that the dimensions for the orientation (width or height) are correct. Each measurement has to be labeled either wide or height.
 
For a printed label or sign, width by height. The reason is that is how it has been stated for over 30 years since I started framing. The NEBS preprinted forms of the old days had it that way. The home made shop forms have had it that way. The POS software has it that way. Publishers state it that way.

Now in general I have always called it by the shorter dimension by the longer dimension with no regard to orientation. That is just working numbers and I remember them easier that way.
 
Hey thanks guys, I needed that ammunition, I'm up against a hardcore vertical-firster.

OK, here's another one...

Should the dimensions on the label on the gallery wall be...

1. The dimension of the artwork, minus the frame.
2. The outer dimensions of the frame.

THX again.
 
40 x 16. The forms I have filled out require horizontal dimension first followed by the vertical. LifeSavers' default is horizontal first; however, the user can swap the order in the configuration menu. I was taught horizontal first and have never encountered a time where the reverse was requested or given. That's my 2 cent piece.
 
Sorry, I was replying on your second post. I have always given the dimensions of the art only. . . can't say I have ever seen the frame included in the dimensions.
 
I feel that if you are labeling framed pieces in a gallery it is most effective to state the frame's outer dimensions. Most consumers buying art are looking to fill a space and are not concerned with the glass size.
 
more_so said:
Hey thanks guys, I needed that ammunition, I'm up against a hardcore vertical-firster.
Click to expand...

Keep in mind that people other than framers may do it differently. If I remember correctly most framers in Europe use vertical first, and some art venues do the same.

Is it your gallery? If so it comes down to the way you want it done.
 
No, not my gallery, but a good one that also shows a lot of sculpture which is where the vertical-first thing comes from.

Yes I agree about quoting the frame dimension, since serious customers usually have a specific piece of wall in mind. OTOH my gallery owner is concerned about the concept of "size for the money" and worries about customers feeling cheated by including the frame dimensions. That in spite of the fact that the better mouldings are worth more per surface area than my art!
 
Then use an image dimension and frame dimension which has been an industry standard of high end galleries for as long as I've been in the business.
 
Most museums and fine art galleries and fine art publishers use the standard of height precedes width, so it is
16 x 40".

For instance...
From Pace Prints in New York.

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close-roy_172-075.jpg
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Chuck Close
Roy, 2009
Stenciled handmade paper print
Paper Size: 35 1/2 x 28 1/2 inches
Edition of 30
Printed by Pace Paper
Published by Pace Editions, Inc

or


cakespies%20copy.jpg

Wayne Thiebaud
Cakes and Pies, 2006
Color direct gravure
Image Size: 22 x 18¼"
Paper Size: 30 x 25½"
Edition 40
Printer: Dena Schuckit
Publisher: Crown Point Press

and from the Metropolitan Museum of Art

DP147111.R.jpg
purple_featured.gif

Helmet Mask (Temes Mbalmbal), mid-20th century
Southwestern Malakula Island, Vanuatu
Wood, vegetable fiber, pig tusks, glass, metal, paint; H. 26 x W. 15 1/2 x D. 19 in. (66 x 39.4 x 48.3 cm)
The Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York, The Michael C. Rockefeller Memorial Collection, Bequest of Nelson A. Rockefeller, 1979 (1979.206.1697)




LifeSaver also uses this standard, it just makes sense.
 
I have absolutely no idea why it would make sense . . . but then maybe it does to Randy.

"Call-out" has always been width before height before depth.

Doors and windows are 3.0-6.8 ( Three-Oh-Six-Eight or three feet even by 6'8") or windows that are 5' wide and 40" tall and have a operating slider that moves from the right to the left is a 5.0-3.4 "OX".

A room from standing in the door at one end is 16' wide, 9' ceiling and runs 24'-3" to the farthest wall is called out as 16x9x24.3.

A sailor can tell you the facts as plain as it gets "you want to know her beam before you go to putting wind in her".

But then, what do I know, I'm just another wood butcher hacking out another round square thingie.
 
As indicated, there is no universal standard. My recollection from a previous discussion is that generally photographs are specified width then height, whereas galleries and museums specify height then width.

I would agree that a shop should set their own standard, but it doesn't matter what it is as long as it's consistent. However, you might consider if you have one or several large customers you deal with who have their own standards that are all the same - then you might adopt theirs.
 
In the photolab we always refer to print sizes "short side first". If pertinent (and it's not always pertinent) designate horizontal or vertical. By habit I carried that over to the frame shop.

Because there is no standard or wrong way you never go wrong by adding H or V .

It hurts my ears to hear 20x16 and I really dislike the terms landscape and portrait. :shrug:


Doug
 
This thread had me disoriented till Randy spoke, as in my little world of museums and galleries, height before width. But, I just looked at a brochure from an art print publisher where in width precedes. ??

Consistency seems more important, as well as clear speaking. I request measurements as left and right, followed by top and bottom, so I have orientation, and slop, with canvases and panels.
 
As an aside, Randy's examples have the perfect solution, if you feel the need to do it wrong. Height, width and depth, abbreviated as h. , w., & d.

I wonder if it's an east/ west thing as well. Randy, I, and his examples are East, the publisher I mentioned, Hart Classics, is California, and Baer is wrong coast, oops, sorry, left coast.

:D
 
I'm with Doug on this one - I always write the short side first and I have always felt that "landscape or portrait" was created for stupid people who no idea of the words "horizontal or vertical."

I blame this on the $39.95 printers that everyone buys at first when they get a computer but then they don't realize that the ink replacement costs are three times the cost of the printer and hence all the printers (inkless and unloved) end up in landfills.
 
Framar said:
I'm with Doug on this one - I always write the short side first and I have always felt that "landscape or portrait" was created for stupid people who no idea of the words "horizontal or vertical."
Click to expand...

Oh, Lord, and then what if you have a portrait that is actually in landscape layout . . . O M G . . . LOL

Framar said:
I blame this on the $39.95 printers that everyone buys at first when they get a computer but then they don't realize that the ink replacement costs are three times the cost of the printer and hence all the printers (inkless and unloved) end up in landfills.
Click to expand...

Been there, done that, won't do it again. Tried to tell Hubby the same thing, but he didn't believe me. Now, he has been there, done that, too. I love it when he has to admit I was right; but would I say, "I told you so?" Never.
 
The exaltation 'never mind the quality feel the width' is reason enough to speak to width first!
 
When we were putting together that book of my dad's sermons, the printing company (lulu.com) gave us templates for everything, including the cover. Unfortunately no matter how you worked it out, they only allowed a "landscape oriented" photo on the cover, so our "portrait oriented" portrait ended up looking silly.
 
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"Portrait" and "Landscape" were the standard terms when I was learning printing from my mothers hip. HP and Epson didn't make this stuff up.

Call a Home Depot on the Other Coast, and talk to the Mill Department and ask them how they "call out" a door or window.

as for thinly veiling disparaging slander of a regional area as being stupid.... this is how stupid you look.

24x48.jpg
 
Does it change things if you write in Chinese (top to bottom)? Or Hebrew (right to left)?

What about if you are completely staffed with left handed Chinese Jews using left handed tape measures?
 
Andrew... are those Jews taking down notes in Aramaic or Roman numerals?

Are the tape measures in English, Metric or Robertson?
 
I always write the smaller number first, then the larger, then indicate "H" or "V" observing the orientation for mat weighting purposes. I've been doing it this way since I started framing 37 years ago. It just feels comfortable to me to proceed from smaller to larger.
:shrug: Rick
 
articles_logo.gif
INTERNATIONAL STANDARD GUIDE

Taking, Recording and
Communicating Dimensions
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]GEN-1998
Addopted-1999
Standards-2000
Revised-0000
Revised-0000[/FONT]

7.0 Procedure
7.1 7.1 Measurement shall be made with a commonly accepted standard of measurement as inch or metric.
7.2 7.2 All dimensions shall be recorded with indication as to the standard of measurement used.
7.3 7.3 The measuring device should accommodate the largest dimension to be recorded.
7.4 7.4 Measurement should be taken on a direct line between opposing sides. The measuring device should not curve or bend between points of measure.
7.5 7.5 All measurements shall be taken from the recto, front or face.
7.6 7.6 The vertical dimension shall be recorded first.
7.7 7.7 The horizontal dimension shall be recorded second.
7.8 7.8 The thickness or depth dimension shall be recorded third.
7.9 7.9 If the a measurement is of less than the total size, such as only an image area, that or part or portion shall be clearly identified directly following that recorded dimension.
7.10 7.10 If the first recorded measurement is other than the recto or face it shall be clearly indicated directly following the dimension​
 
Using the Epson 7800 Driver,

A 24 x 36 landscape oriented landscape need to be printed in the portrait mode on 24 inch paper.

A 16 x 20 portrait portrait on 16 inch paper should print in the landscape mode.

A 16 x 20 portrait portrait on 20 inch paper should print in the portrait mode.

Aahhh... I think!

Doug
 
DVieau2 said:
Using the Epson 7800 Driver,

A 24 x 36 landscape oriented landscape need to be printed in the portrait mode on 24 inch paper.

A 16 x 20 portrait portrait on 16 inch paper should print in the landscape mode.

A 16 x 20 portrait portrait on 20 inch paper should print in the portrait mode.

Aahhh... I think!

Doug
Click to expand...

And that is exactly why I always use the print preview option. Even after printing thousands of prints I still use the preview on my 9800. I do a lot of printing while the customer is standing there talking to me and don't want any mistakes.
 
smitten said:
articles_logo.gif
INTERNATIONAL STANDARD GUIDE

[/LEFT]
Click to expand...


Beware of making FACTS the last word. There are some standards that are vague and need to be clarified.

Please don't misunderstand, I have a great deal of respect for the good people who established FACTS standards. The work is very important.

Doug
 
DVieau2 said:
Beware of making FACTS the last word.
Click to expand...

If they could just get the entire world to change their standards to match, their work would be done.:D

All of those industries who have had standards for centuries just need to comform to the arbitrary standards accepted and labeled as FACTS during the past couple decades. By naming them FACTS it must make them absolute.:bdh:
 
always: width x length
always: measure art

do not include matboard or frame in measuring as the frame is not part of the art (it can be re-framed)
 
I've always done the vertical first but now I have a CMC I do the horizontal first, coz that what it wants!

It's been like trying to write with the wrong hand.
 
RoboFramer said:
I've always done the vertical first but now I have a CMC I do the horizontal first, coz that what it wants!

It's been like trying to write with the wrong hand.
Click to expand...

Which CMC are you using? You can probably change it so that the computer does what you want, and not vice versa.
 
At brunch, I asked my wife, the Art Museum professional, as I was curious. Her reply was that in the US, standard museum practice is height precedes width. I asked if this was an American Assoc. of Museums standard. She laughed and said it was a Dorothy Dudley standard; who wrote the book on registrarial methods:
Museum registration methods [by] Dorothy H. Dudley, Irma Bezold Wilkinson, and others

Not that this will change any bodies method, but I would rather follow museum practice than carpenter practice, and I reiterate that consistency and clarity are more important than which way you pronounce tomato.
 
I started by penciling a "V" above the verticle aspect. My first POS was width first, and the Wizard the same. The Art Consultant, a student of Ms. Dudley, insisted on the other way around. I talked with the POS people, and there was no option, so I never checked with Wizard. In communications with the art consultant everything had to be physically transcribed to the format she was used to. Now the new POS is height first, so I may be on the phone to Wizard and see if that can be switched.
I'm inclined to do it any way the paying customer asks, and I can always put a little "V" in pencil over the verticle aspect.
 
I have people come in looking for a print to go in their recycled frame. First question I ask is, do they need vertical or horizontal. I think the question catches most of them off guard because they motion with their hands. Heaven forbid if I ask landscape or portrait.
 
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