Options for hanging frame mirror in bathrooom

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newbiehanger

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I'm trying to figure out the best option for me to hang some mirrors in my bathrooms. My main issue is the size of them mirrors are very close to the size of the niche so my options seem limited.

Master Mirror Niche - 42 12/16 x 34 10/16
Master Mirror - 42 2/16 x 34 2/16 (weight 20lbs)

The best method would be to use a cleat, but I don't think it's going to be physically possible with the tight space. Another option I thought of is to put the cleat at the bottom so I could angle the mirror in then use liquid nails to secure the top of the mirror. Please find picture attached.

Bathroom Mirror space - 41 8/16 x 64 6/16
Bathroom Mirror - 41 2/16 x 64 3/16 (weight 35lbs)

The is a little niche at the top, but the bottom is just the granite back splash piece. I was thinking of just letting the mirror sit on top of the back splash piece and the using liquid nails around the frame.

Any thoughts on the best way to approach this?
 

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Not much room???

newbie,

It sounds like you've set yourself up for "wall to wall" mirror? Why is the mirror cut already?

Personally in our home, my wife yanked out all the mirrors that we flush mounted to the walls; had nice 1-1/2 inch beveled edge mirrors created that were a bit smaller, and had these custom framed to match the decor of each bathroom / vanity. (But that's just the way this framer thinks...)

The expert on these really extreme mirror mounting jobs is Rob Markoff....so give him time to catch this thread, and I'm sure he'll post some suggestions.

Ahhhh - just noticed your attached image. It appears that the mirror is framed? Is this one project or two?

Good luck,

John
 
newbiehanger said:
Any thoughts on the best way to approach this?
Click to expand...


First thought - if you use liquid nails approach wearing a some form of protective head gear.

Seriously though, any glue will fail eventually. Those are big mirrors. You need some method of anchoring them firmly into the wall.

Looking at the pics, you might have enough room to get some small mirror plates on the back and be able to get a screwdriver in the gap. If the weight is taken by the niche then they only have to stop the mirror falling forward. Don't know the wall structure, but if it's brick/plaster, I would fix timber battens top and bottom and screw into these.



Welcome to the G btw. :smiley:
 
Thanks for all the responses. Some more information.

- Yes, I trusted my wife to do the ordering of the mirrors. I thought she would have a discussion on the recommended mirror size for the size of the niche with the manufacturer. Unfortunately, this never happened. BTW, what is the rule of thumb when ordering sizes?

- I was thinking about the rotted wood as well. I guess letting the mirror sit on the back splash is not an option.

- The wall material is drywall.

So using glue would not be an option for making sure the mirror does not fall forward if I use cleats at the bottom? Anyone know what if it's physically possible to use cleats on the top? I would assume a certain clearance is need and that it's more than what I have.
 
Vertical strips of Velcro down the sides of the back of the frame and matching on the wall.
As the others said, keep it off the bottom of the space.
That much Velcro will hold that no problem.
Even tho the velcro has adhesive on the back, it might be a good idea to staple it to the wall and frame as well.
 
go to your neaerest picture frames (independent) and ask him to sell you z-bar hanger you can cut to the width you need.
you should have the clearance you need.
 
I'm picturing rare earth magnets in strategic positions on the back of a board mounted to the frame that match up with opposite pieces that are screwed into studs on the wall.

If this is a full use bathroom I think velcro would be an issue long term with the potential to fail.
 
Magnets are good, but require some expense and preparation work.

3M Heavy Duty Dual-Lock fasteners are something like Velcro, but much stronger and suitable for connecting rigid surfaces. They would hold the framed mirror perfectly in place. You could staple or screw the fasteners to both surfaces, but I wouldn't want to rely on the fastener's adhesive.

Probably the simplest, strongest, cheapest solution would be to drill holes into the back of the frame near each of the four corners, and have screw anchors in the wall to go into those holes. Use a template to carefully match the screws to their corresponding holes. Reinforce the holes in the wood by attaching keyhole brackets, which fit almost flat on the surface. If you want, you can design this hanging system to use the screws' heads to engage the keyhole brackets, meaning that you would have to lift the frame up about 1/16" to 1/8" (depending on your screws' heads) to remove it from the wall.
 
Ok heres another idea...... anyway to cut some trim moulding and paint it the same color as the walls.....
then set the mirrors in the niche and trim around to hold it in?

Just a thought..... :popc:
 
Jim Miller said:
Magnets are good, but require some expense and preparation work.

3M Heavy Duty Dual-Lock fasteners are something like Velcro, but much stronger and suitable for connecting rigid surfaces. They would hold the framed mirror perfectly in place. You could staple or screw the fasteners to both surfaces, but I wouldn't want to rely on the fastener's adhesive.
Click to expand...

What is the max weight limit for these fasteners? I would be a bit worried about having the mirrors held up by "velcro".

Probably the simplest, strongest, cheapest solution would be to drill holes into the back of the frame near each of the four corners, and have screw anchors in the wall to go into those holes. Use a template to carefully match the screws to their corresponding holes. Reinforce the holes in the wood by attaching keyhole brackets, which fit almost flat on the surface. If you want, you can design this hanging system to use the screws' heads to engage the keyhole brackets, meaning that you would have to lift the frame up about 1/16" to 1/8" (depending on your screws' heads) to remove it from the wall.
Click to expand...

Do you have a picture of such a setup? I'm having a tough time picturing this in my head.
 
blackiris said:
Ok heres another idea...... anyway to cut some trim moulding and paint it the same color as the walls.....
then set the mirrors in the niche and trim around to hold it in?

Just a thought..... :popc:
Click to expand...

Thanks for the suggestion. This seems like a lot of work. I just want to leave the framed mirrors as is and figure out a way to mount/hang them on the wall without cutting or painting.
 
The best way to install these is to use materials designed to do what needs to be done- adhere the mirror/frame to the wall.

There does not appear to be enough clearance to use Z bar as you need a minimum of 5/8" of clearance from the top of the frame to allow the frame to slip over the top of the z-bar. With such close allowance around the frame, installing the z-bar accurately so you have an even reveal may also be a challenge.

Here is what I would do:

Is the mirror flush to the back of the frame or close - with no paper or other covering on the back of the mirror? Or, can you make it so? OR- is it less than 2-1/2" from the back of the frame to the back of the mirror?

I would use a mirror mastic designed for "extra build" - such as Gunther Extra Build which is available from a glass supply house like CR Laurence.

http://www.crlaurence.com/crlapps/s...1988&History=39324:330:1797:1885&ModelID=1988

This product will allow for build up to 2-1/2" with NO SAG. Watch the video and read the instructions if you have never used it.

To make installation easier- we would use suction cups to hold and insert the framed mirror (no smashed fingers) - and cut temporary shims to hold the mirror up/left right until the mastic cures. With any kind of a build out, we would also put a torpedo level on the glass to confirm we were plumb to the wall and adjust with pressure to confirm.

NOTE: Mirror Mastic is designed to go on the back of the MIRROR itself.

An alternative is to use an adhesive like PL-200 or PL-400 on the frame itself and glue the frame to the wall.

Another great product is:

http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/pg...ose-Clear-Construction-Adhesive-Cartridge.htm

Note: These products (construction adhesives) are NOT intended for use on the back of a mirror, but for the FRAME itself.

I think Velcro is a BAD idea (and also Scotch-LOK) as it is dependent on what is holding the material to the wall and there IS flexibility for sag.
 
GUMBY said:
go to your neaerest picture frames (independent) and ask him to sell you z-bar hanger you can cut to the width you need.
you should have the clearance you need.
Click to expand...

would one of the OOK French Cleat Picture Hangers at Home Depot provide enough clearance?
 
Rob is our resident installation expert and always has good advice to follow, but another solution is to remove the current frame on the mirror and use a product called Mirror Mate. With this product, you hang the mirror by itself with traditional mirror hangers and then install the Mirror Mate frame around the edge, over the mirror hangers. With careful measurements, you could probably do this as a DIY project. Some of my designer clients have used this system successfully in tight spaces with an installer's help. Mirror Mate advertises DIY installation.
 
The OOK hanger is just a repackaged Hangman product. www.hangmanproducts.com

It has slightly less clearance than Z bar and is more forgiving to hang - but will still require the use of some form of adhesive to hold the bottom of the frame flush to the wall and to prevent it from moving.

You will still have the problem of accurate installation and if you do not have suction cups, difficulty removing the mirror if you have to make adjustments.

You could make french cleats from 1/4" multi-birch or luan plywood - and use one at the top/bottom of each frame, but it also means that the framed mirror will sit 1/4" away from the wall. Not a problem with a recessed installation but I mention it for future readers with different applications. DO NOT use 1/4" MDF or Masonite as they are friable materials with very little structural strength on a cleat that is so thin. The advantage of making a french cleat out of 1/4" material is that your angle of purchase is only 30 degrees and you do not have to have as high of clearance on the top. You can also overbore or slot the holes on the wall piece so you have adjustment - but still have the difficulty of removing the framed mirror should you need to get to the wall cleat to adjust.

With a 1/4" thick cleat, it is imperative that it is also perfectly parallel to the frame - so any wall aberrations need to be accounted for by shimming the wall portion of the cleat so it is perfectly flat. (same for Z-bar and less so for the Hangman bracket)
 
hangupsgallery said:
I'd call the glass company where I bought the mirror and have them install it. They have the equipment to handle it and the materials to adhere it to the wall...they do this every day.
Click to expand...

Odds are that once newbie put it in the frame the mirror is probably not flush with the back of the frame.
 
pwalters said:
Odds are that once newbie put it in the frame the mirror is probably not flush with the back of the frame.
Click to expand...

And your point is........?

The mirror does not have to be flush to the back of the frame - you either glue the FRAME to the wall, or use UltraBuild to adhere the mirror to the wall if it is within 2-1/2" from the wall.
 
Rob Markoff said:
The best way to install these is to use materials designed to do what needs to be done- adhere the mirror/frame to the wall.

Is the mirror flush to the back of the frame or close - with no paper or other covering on the back of the mirror? Or, can you make it so? OR- is it less than 2-1/2" from the back of the frame to the back of the mirror?
Click to expand...

More info on the mirror. The actual frame is 2.5" all the way around. The mirror to frame is not flush. There is a gap of .75" between them if I remove cardboard backing. With this info, would you recommend going the route of gluing the mirror or the actual frame to the wall. What is the weight limit of these glues?
 
Rob Markoff said:
And your point is........?
Click to expand...

A good one.

The poster above suggested that the mirror folks be the ones to figure this out since they do "this" every day. Since the mirror isn't what will be attached to the wall because the frame is deeper than the mirror is I didn't think that was a good idea. Did you Rob?
 
newbiehanger said:
More info on the mirror. The actual frame is 2.5" all the way around. The mirror to frame is not flush. There is a gap of .75" between them if I remove cardboard backing. With this info, would you recommend going the route of gluing the mirror or the actual frame to the wall. What is the weight limit of these glues?
Click to expand...

Newbie. Do you ever think there will be a need to take this mirror down without harming the wall behind it? Is there plumbing behind it that might need to be accessible? I wouldn't glue anything to the wall if you think there might be a need to take it down for any reason other than the next time you want to demo the wall behind it. I still say magnets would give you the most flexibility. I love me some Rockler
 
Just use Z bar, but install it so that the frame strip just overlaps the wall strip by 1/8" to 1/4" and put a couple of clear bumpons on the bottom and back bottom of the frame to keep some airflow. Easy peasy!
 
pwalters said:
Newbie. Do you ever think there will be a need to take this mirror down without harming the wall behind it? Is there plumbing behind it that might need to be accessible? I wouldn't glue anything to the wall if you think there might be a need to take it down for any reason other than the next time you want to demo the wall behind it. I still say magnets would give you the most flexibility. I love me some Rockler
Click to expand...

I don't see myself having to take down the mirror, but of course I like the idea of flexibility. I'll look into the magnet option - I've never knew these types of magnets existed! Seems like a very interesting product.

In the meantime, I ordered the suction cups since it sounds like I will need these no matter which route I decide to go with. I'm concerned that you mentioned that these are not the best glass handling suction cups. Will these take care of the job though? I would hate for the mirror to slip off the suction cups as I mounting it to the wall!
 
newbiehanger said:
What is the max weight limit for these fasteners? I would be a bit worried about having the mirrors held up by "velcro".
Click to expand...

I agree about Velcro, which is why I suggested something stronger. Max weight limit? Not sure, but it's probably more than the paper on the sheetrock would withstand.

Do you have a picture of such a setup? I'm having a tough time picturing this in my head.
Click to expand...
No, but you can simulate it: In a piece of wood, drill a hole just slightly larger than the head on a screw. Stick the head of the screw in the hole. Now, pretend the hole is on the back of your frame and the screw is anchored in the wall. The keyhole bracket is an optional reinforcement for the wood, and probably not necessary.
 
Pat Murphey said:
Just use Z bar, but install it so that the frame strip just overlaps the wall strip by 1/8" to 1/4" and put a couple of clear bumpons on the bottom and back bottom of the frame to keep some airflow. Easy peasy!
Click to expand...

Please explain this one to me. You can have the frame strip overlap the wall strip by the amount you suggest but then the frame wants to drop down the full width of the z-bar and sit on the ledge and is no longer supported by the z-bar. Maybe I don't follow what you are recommending.

You could run the z -bar through a table saw (with an aluminum cutting blade) to reduce the overlap to 1/4" - but you still have the problem of accurate installation with such a limited reveal. And, if you have to adjust, you need to keep removing the mirror. Each time you do so, you run the risk of damage to the mirror or wall.

In bathrooms, we always add a second cleat or lock the mirror to the wall. Bumpons will hold the mirror parallel to the wall but won't keep it from bouncing around when being cleaned and if there is any variation in the wall, won't help pull the mirror in to the wall.
 
pwalters said:
Since the mirror isn't what will be attached to the wall because the frame is deeper than the mirror is I didn't think that was a good idea. Did you Rob?
Click to expand...

Either you didn't read my post or didn't understand it.

IF you use ultra build, the MIRROR is attached to the wall. @ 3/4" away, ultra build would be fine.

Or, the FRAME could be attached to the wall using a different type of adhesive.

If one is concerned with sheer strength, you could cut the head off of 4 #17 brads and epoxy them into holes in the back of the frame and press them into the drywall along with the adhesive. The framed mirror would stay in place and have the extra support of the brads to prevent it from sliding down the wall.
 
Rob Markoff said:
Either you didn't read my post or didn't understand it.
Click to expand...

Rob, regarding that comment - the previous poster (hangups) said it would make sense for newbie to refer this hanging back to the glass company. Since the mirror wasn't flush with the back of the frame referring to a mirror company didn't make sense to me. The mirror isn't likely to be attached to anything other than the frame from what I can tell. Since nobody is going to be installing a mirror to a wall but in all likelihood it is the frame that is going to be attached to the wall I wouldn't recommend he refer it out.

Where am I wrong? Do you think that newbie should refer the hanging back? Please, enlighten me as to why he should.
 
pwalters said:
Since nobody is going to be installing a mirror to a wall .......
Click to expand...

Why isn't anyone installing the mirror to the wall? I think it can be done and I provided a link to the proper adhesive to do it with.

Even if he referred it out - it is possible to glue the mirror to the wall despite the fact that the back of the mirror is not flush to the back of the frame if you use the proper mastic.
 
Rob Markoff said:
Why isn't anyone installing the mirror to the wall? I think it can be done and I provided a link to the proper adhesive to do it with.

Even if he referred it out - it is possible to glue the mirror to the wall despite the fact that the back of the mirror is not flush to the back of the frame if you use the proper mastic.
Click to expand...

Wow. Let me type slower.

I don't disagree that the mirror could be attached.

I don't think that is the best way to mount this.

I don't think referring the job out is needed.

There is no advantage to the newbie referring this to a mirror company.

To sum up your points:
Yay for adhesives.

Glue is good.

Did I miss anything?
 
05 said:
I agree with Mr. Walters.

I like these:
http://www.kjmagnetics.com/products.asp?cat=173
because they're rated for weight.

See also
http://www.uline.com/BL_3318/Industrial-Suction-Cup?pricode=WU081&gclid=CJ2OiviKvK8CFc6a7QodWFzghA
for not-the-best glass-handling suctions cups, which you might need given the tight fit of the frames into the alcoves.
Click to expand...

So I emailed KJ magnetics and they are not recommending the use of magnets for my specific application. With a mirror up to 50lbs they said the amount of magnets required would create a large force that would make it difficult to install and remove. They were worried that the mirror/frame would even break as I moved it close to the wall to mount it due to the attraction force.

I'm thinking glue might be my only option at this point.
 
Rob Markoff said:
Please explain this one to me. You can have the frame strip overlap the wall strip by the amount you suggest but then the frame wants to drop down the full width of the z-bar and sit on the ledge and is no longer supported by the z-bar. Maybe I don't follow what you are recommending...
Click to expand...

Maybe not, did you notice the recommendation to sit on clear bumpons, with the Z bar to safely prevent tilting out.
 
Best Options...

Pat Murphey said:
Maybe not, did you notice the recommendation to sit on clear bumpons, with the Z bar to safely prevent tilting out.
Click to expand...

Pat, I'm not sure about this either.

Rob was pointing out that you would have to "modify" Z-Bar or Hangman (my preference over Z-Bar) in this situation, simply because you do not have enough clearance at the top of the recess to lift the frame to engage the two components.

I think gluing the frame to the wall or cutting in a keyhole hanger/slot is the best options for this installation.

620064_front200.jpg


I believe that this is what Jim Miller was suggesting... two rather than four might support the weight, but four would keep it from moving! :thumbsup:

Jim Miller said:
...Probably the simplest, strongest, cheapest solution would be to drill holes into the back of the frame near each of the four corners, and have screw anchors in the wall to go into those holes. Use a template to carefully match the screws to their corresponding holes. Reinforce the holes in the wood by attaching keyhole brackets, which fit almost flat on the surface. If you want, you can design this hanging system to use the screws' heads to engage the keyhole brackets, meaning that you would have to lift the frame up about 1/16" to 1/8" (depending on your screws' heads) to remove it from the wall.
Click to expand...


Regards,

John
 
They still have to "drop" into place or slide sideways into place. So that means clearance around the frame.

So the "best option" is to go straight forward onto a hanging system. Use an adhesive like a mastic and slap that puppy to the wall. :)
 
Pat Murphey said:
John? I suggest that the frame resting on the bottom shelf (raised a bit with clear bumpons) and prevented from falling forward with a small overlap of Z bar is secure, simple, and easily removable...
Click to expand...

Pat,

I understand what you're suggesting... What I am saying is that you don't have the room for the Z-Bar to engage.... You can't lift it high enough to catch lip to lip. (Please look at the photo). :)

John
 
Shim the bottom of the frame to level and square glue the frame with the adhesive Rob recommended
Wedge the frame tight till the adhesive dries ( read instructions on tube)

15min install Charge 1 hour go home

I do this all the time I have never had a call back.

Niches what is their purpose?
 
newbiehanger said:
So I emailed KJ magnetics and they are not recommending the use of magnets for my specific application. With a mirror up to 50lbs they said the amount of magnets required would create a large force that would make it difficult to install and remove. They were worried that the mirror/frame would even break as I moved it close to the wall to mount it due to the attraction force.

I'm thinking glue might be my only option at this point.
Click to expand...

I still would think that with a piece of wood mounted to the back of this frame that you attached the anchors to you would have more than enough support and surface area to space magnets to hold appropriately.

Glue will work, I'm just hoping you can find a way that would be less damaging in the event it has to come down. I know that would be my preference as the home owner.
 
John Ranes II said:
620064_front200.jpg


I believe that this is what Jim Miller was suggesting... two rather than four might support the weight, but four would keep it from moving! :thumbsup:
John
Click to expand...

Yes, John, that is the keyhole bracket I was talking about.

Bob Doyle said:
They still have to "drop" into place or slide sideways into place. So that means clearance around the frame.
Click to expand...
Bob, if he uses the brackets upside down, as shown in John's picture, the heads of the screws could engage them with only 1/16" to 1/8" vertical clearance.

Use an adhesive like a mastic and slap that puppy to the wall. :)
Click to expand...
Of course a good adhesive would work, as suggested by Rob. Trouble is, that's a whole lot more permanent than it needs to be. What if the mirror ever gets broken? Cleaning all of that adhesive off the wall would be a lot more work than lifting off a screw/hole-mounted frame.

Also, I have seen glued mirrors develop ugly cracks in the silvering, corresponding to the path of the glue lines on the back of the mirror. Presumably, that is due to the different expansion/contraction coefficients of the glass and the wall. Remember, you're gluing the silvering to the wall, not the glass directly. If the bond of the silvering to the glass is the 'weak link' in the adhesion, the problem may come later.
 
Jim Miller said:
Also, I have seen glued mirrors develop ugly cracks in the silvering, corresponding to the path of the glue lines on the back of the mirror. Presumably, that is due to the different expansion/contraction coefficients of the glass and the wall. Remember, you're gluing the silvering to the wall, not the glass directly. If the bond of the silvering to the glass is the 'weak link' in the adhesion, the problem may come later.
Click to expand...

Plus if this is new construction/remodel there will be shifting and accomodation in the wall due to settling, humidity, etc.

Jim, if you use the keyhole upside down (maybe you mentioned this) with small washers beneath it that would provide more gap between the hanger and the frame allowing the screw head a little more room to secure. Or do you see issues with that? Too much play? I worry without it would not be enough with the movement of cleaning, dusting, etc.

Newbie, if you had to do you have enough room in the hole to put the frame in flush with the top of the opening and then allow it to drop 1/4" or so?
 
rereading the op there is 5/8ths of an inch leeway top and bottom and a 1/2" side to side. it is concievable that someone with OCD could be exacting enough to have a 1/4" of room on the top to fit the top of the mirror in with.

But I like the OP's idea of a bottom cleat and combining that with a strong magnet at the top. If the OP is worried about the mirror falling forward a safety chain could be attached to the top so that if the magnet ever failed (the earth's polarity flipping nullifying the magnets?) the chain would hold it from crashing down...

Jim there is 3/4" in between the mirror and the back edge of the frame, so the adhesive would be on the frame and not on the mirror. I too have seen the mirror coating ruined along the glue lines.
 
pwalters said:
Jim, if you use the keyhole upside down (maybe you mentioned this) with small washers beneath it that would provide more gap between the hanger and the frame allowing the screw head a little more room to secure. Or do you see issues with that? Too much play? I worry without it would not be enough with the movement of cleaning, dusting, etc.
Click to expand...
I would attach the keyhole brackets over holes drilled into the frame, so the wall-anchored screws could recess by 1/4" or so. The steel brackets would provide a stop against accidental pull-off, and the frame would have to be lifted slightly to remove it from the wall.

Bob, I get what you mean about gluing the frame and not the mirror itself. That's better, but still a much more permanent attachment than necessary.
 
Very true, but I guess I was thinking if debating between velcro and gluing in a steamy bathroom setting I'd go with glue. And overkill gluing at that :)
 
Gottit!!! If if there is a cavity behind the drywall, put some long wood screws into the side rails, near the top. Cover the screw heads with some marking agent (lipstick?). Offer it up to the niche to mark the screw locations. Drill the drywall about 1/8" above the marks - same size holes as the screw heads. Shove it in the niche so the screws go into the holes. It will drop a little bit when the screw heads clear the holes.
With luck,part of the threaded section of the screws will bite into the drywall hole and the whole issue should stay put.
 
prospero said:
... put some long wood screws into the side rails, near the top... Drill the drywall about 1/8" above the marks - same size holes as the screw heads. Shove it in the niche so the screws go into the holes. It will drop a little bit when the screw heads clear the holes.
Click to expand...
That is pretty much what I suggested, but in reverse.
 
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