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ArtLady

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Founding Member
Joined
Oct 13, 1999
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1,245
Loc
Lawrenceville, Georgia
>>Framar,
Isn’t it nice of me to surprise Grumblers now and then?
In fact older Grumblers know of my site and I cannot seduce but the new ones. Why I don’t take my web site in the open then? Because I have a deal with “Framer”. He told me “Cornel, you are a piece of work and too much of a risk for The Grumbler’s quiet existence; you must choose only one of the two: your web site be visible and your postings nice and short, on one hand, or keep on rolling your big, bad mouth and have a bad temper on the other one”. So, I asked for 24 hours to consider the offer at the end of which I noticed that most Grumblers have something beautiful to show on the Web and every single one has something nice to say. The Grumbler was conspicuously missing its devil. Besides, devil’s part is better paid too…J>>

Dear Frame Harbor,

I have found this post somewhat vague and hard to understand. May I ask that you please restate specifically what it is that you are trying to tell us.

1. Do you have a "deal" with Framer? If yes, what are the details of your "deal" with Framer?

2. Who are you specifically referring to as the "Devil"?

3. Do you feel The Grumble needs a devil? If yes please explain why.

4. Do I understand you correctly that in some fashion you feel that you have been "wronged"?

5. What was the consequence at the end of the "24 hours" you mentioned?

6. Are you asking asistance from the members of this forum? If yes, could you please be specific as to the assistance you would like to see.

7. Since Framer is the producer of this forum. Are you questioning his motives? Do you think that he benefits financially from this forum?

8. Are you financially supporting this forum?

9. Are there changes you would like to see in the governing of this forum? If yes may I ask that you state those changes with specific details?

10. Have you considered using the "Poll" forum to determine the acceptability of some of your ideas with this group?

11. Are you framiliar with the term confrontational? Do you feel this is an effective political tool in an open forum like this? May I ask how you plan to deal with lurkers that may have misinterpreted your comments and have taken offense?

12. In your mind what is the goal, function and purpose of this forum?
 
If you would be so gracious, I would like to add a question of my own to yours, ArtLady.

Frame Harbor, you are quite obviously a fine craftsman and show justifiable pride in your work. Your comments and suggestions in the thread about photographing framing have been very clear, concise and helpful. However, your most recent post concerning some sort of "deal" with Framer and mentioning a devil leave me puzzled. Not only is the tone dramatically different, but the grammar and word choices as well. It would lead me to believe that they had been written by two entirely different personalities.

My question: Is this indeed the case? You mentioned once that you give your employees access to the internet at your place of business. Is it possible that one of your employees has gotten your password for The Grumble and is posting under your name? I would suggest that you take steps to find out and prevent this in the future. Some of these more outrageous posts are hurting your reputation and casting you in a most unfavorable light, one which does not show you as the gentleman craftsman you surely are.
 
1. Do you have a "deal" with Framer? If yes, what are the details of your "deal" with Framer?

Of course not. Where is your sense of humor, guys?

2. Who are you specifically referring to as the "Devil"?

The "troublemaker" me.

3. Do you feel The Grumble needs a devil? If yes please explain why.

Yes I do. So the good characters can have their symbolic and teaching victories over the evil one. It adds drama and excitement to our professional forum, isn't that true?

4. Do I understand you correctly that in some fashion you feel that you have been "wronged"?

You cannot quote me for saying that. But I must admit that my best and disinterested initiatives had been ignored to say the least. That usually hurts. But then that's what the Devil's part is all about, isn't it?

5. What was the consequence at the end of the "24 hours" you mentioned?

If I must explain a joke that I made, then it means that that joke is not worth laughter, much less a word.

6. Are you asking assistance from the members of this forum? If yes, could you please be specific as to the assistance you would like to see.

No. I'm not. In fact in most cases I was offering my assistance to you, whether it was a technical answer that I knew to be true, a product that you were in dear need of and had no reliable sources in sight (easel backs), or offering consolation prizes in order to boost Grumblers' interest and participation in a contest aiming at improving PPFA, to mention just a couple of things. B]

7. Since Framer is the producer of this forum. Are you questioning his motives? Do you think that he benefits financially from this forum?

Framer's merits in inventing and keeping this forum alive are limitless. His motivation of doing it has much to do with what I respect most: the irrepressible need to do what one loves best. If that product is in big demand and highly appreciated buy others that's great. If yet brings some money in it's even perfect.

8. Are you financially supporting this forum?

No, I'm not. But I might find ways to and even help it grow.

9. Are there changes you would like to see in the governing of this forum? If yes may I ask that you state those changes with specific details?

The Grumbler is Framer's show and he had it designed and improved accordingly. I'll use Framer's e-mail address or phone number if and when I'll be ready to articulate specific proposals regarding TG.

10. Have you considered using the "Poll" forum to determine the acceptability of some of your ideas with this group?

Yes, as a matter of fact I have. By the way, that one is a terrific tool both to use and take advantage of. If it's not yet being used at its full capacity, that's not Framer's fault.

11. Are you familiar with the term confrontational? Do you feel this is an effective political tool in an open forum like this? May I ask how you plan to deal with lurkers that may have misinterpreted your comments and have taken offense?

1. Yes 2. Why not? 3. Of course you may. But I'm afraid that I have no proper answer here. To paraphrase Nixon, none of my friends is a lurker. That's not to say that lurkers are my enemies. I simply cannot see, judge, engage, flatter or offence evasive beings. In my opinion, unless one addresses them directly, no lurker can take offence for his opinions. But taking precautions as not to offence yet unknown and unborn potential Grumblers lurking out in the cyber-night is potentially a far more disturbing and embarrassing situation.

12. In your mind what is the goal, function and purpose of this forum?

Framer knows best. I'm pleased with his newest additions to the old forum's format. Off the main line, I'm willing to bet my last dollar that many ...lurkers are checking in tonight to see what am I going to answer to your questions


MiterMan is asking: "Is it possible that one of your employees has gotten your password for The Grumble and is posting under your name?"

No, it isn't. In fact another Grumbler asked me in private the very same question. To be consistent, I’ll copy-paste my answer to him. Here it is.
Coming from you, I'd say it's a compliment. In fact I love taking pictures and I learned how to do it pretty well. For the last two years alone I took thousands of pictures and damaged my sight in front of my computers in my striving to learn computer photo editing and then fool around with those pictures. My goal was to learn enough as to be able to design and maintain my own website. I'm also proud to say that, except for printing, my catalog is entirely my work. I never did it before and it's yet far from perfect but, like my frames and my web site, my catalog too is proving my ongoing learning efforts.
Don't be fooled by my grammar and speech patterns. I do use my computer's spelling brains. Besides, my picture taking skills are based on reading a few American books of specialty. I tried for myself many things that I learned there and that's why I speak as if I know what I'm talking about ;) .
 
There have been a few people who have noticed that I've been very quiet on this subject...

As a Moderator and a framer, I can't watch this go on any more. FrameHarbor, if you can't learn to deal with us, as the equals that we are, then I will not stay on this forum. I won't be in a place where my friends, and I are treated like spoiled children.

I deal with customers all day long, why (in your right mind) would you think that I would want to come to a forum just to have an argument? I come here to get answers to my questions, try to help others in need, and perhaps make friends along the way. BUT I won't be treated like this, and I won't stand off to the side and watch my friends be attacked either.

If you don't want people like me to leave this forum, then I suggest that you curb your attitude, and treat us with the respect we deserve.

Susan May
Custom Framer
Co-Owner of Family Crafts Frame Shop
 
Susan May,
You are a very delicate lady and I meant no offence to you or anybody else. Why can’t we have a smile now and then? I’m using smiling faces when I’m speaking lightly. Why be always stiff and predictable like planets revolving up in the sky?
We are pairs not clients and servants in here. You, framers, must put up with many uncomfortable clients every day. I know it for a fact. Why is it that we must continue be acting as if we are going on talking to our most tenacious of clients (client's always right, smart, observant, gifted etc.)?
"I deal with customers all day long, why (in your right mind) would you think that I would want to come to a forum just to have an argument? I come here to get answers to my questions, try to help others in need, and perhaps make friends along the way".
Good questions. Truly so, where would we defend our artistic values and our professional opinions when they are being challenged, in court? Over two thousand years ago Greeks and Romans had dedicated their Agoras and Forums to ardent public debate of their cities’ affairs. A forum is not a church, it is about expressing opinions of any kind, not just the sugary ones, or getting comforted in mediocrity and consensual patterns. I’m pleased to remind you that within real forums democracy and political parties were born too.
Everybody is free to share and make friends here and in real life too. Those aside, why not tell one when you don’t like or understand his position? "If you have nothing good to say, you better keep silent" is what you once tried to teach me. Is that how we better ourselves, prizing what looks benign and keeping quiet over major flaws? I don't think so. Why telling the truth must be confrontational? Why having an unflattering opinion about some one's work or ideas cannot be voiced? Why to suppress cordial polemics? Why be afraid of freedom of expressing one's ideas and opinions? I'm asking you, Susan, all those questions because, as a room mediator, you must be best prepared to understand, appreciate and defend the virtues of a free flow of opinions.
 
Frame Harbor,

So what is your point?

What is it that you are defending?

How specifically have you been attacked?

Certainly, as business people we must all deal with the proper presentation of our ideas, services and products. Perhaps one could consider that the statement of the truth is not the issue here. The presentation of ideas in a manner that is less less editorial would have a less inflamatory effect on the audience. One could consider less attention to subjective allusions and concentrate on technical details.

This forum has a specific focus. An introduction of issues outside that focus could possibly not have much interest to those who have chosen to visit and participate in the discussions at this site.

Let's see, we will disagree at times. However, in polite society we must respect the right of someone to have a contrary opinion. Perhaps, an easy way to start a disagreement would be to open a sentence with "I guess I" or "Have you considered" or "It has been my experience".

Starting a statement of a contrary opinion with an editorial about some aspect of history or long editorial of a fact leaves the audience wondering about the aggenda of the author. The acknowledgement of a previously expressed opinion is necessary. Perhaps one could search and study the writing style of some of the respected contributors to this forum. There are as many as there are differences in opinion.

It is my opinion that successful business people must develop not only their artist talents but a presentation that makes their work attractive to an audience. This is necessary so that resources are available to continue their work.

So, may I ask what draws you to the Grumble?

I am also curious about the signon name "Frame Harbor"? May I ask the origine of your signon name choice?
 
Good morning ArtLady,

By now I had voiced so many opinions that I'm not sure what do you mean by my making a point. I guess that being free to spell one's mind, face conflictual (I just invented a word!) situations just like in real life, learn and get better, sounds like a good cause to me.
Why are you, Art Lady, using a military jargon? I'm not being attacked in here and, at my turn, I'm not counter-attacking anybody. I wish that all wars that humans waged on each other were always carried in a verbal fashion only.
A few years ago my good friend Peter Stetler, whom I owe my speaking English to, was warning me like that: "Cornel, by now you speak well enough English as to get in trouble". He meant to say that I was misusing many words, yet sounding articulate enough to be taken literally, which has always and anywhere been an explosive mix with less attentive and perceiving interlocutors. Who can tell how far I traveled from that stage? See, most people are seeking from this forum that what they miss most. Some Grumblers hone their skills at how best to cut or clean glass; I'm still practicing my English with debatable (conflictual) results ;)
As of my business manners, the few of you whom I was privileged to do business with might tell you that I strive to be as good at it as one can get. Often times I succeed; but then I have always suspected that I am doing the walking and my product line is doing the talking for me

What draws me to the Grumbler? I like it. It makes me feel young, good and useful again. Can you keep a secret? It reminds me remotely of my underground free newspaper, the only Romanian samizdat that had ever been circulated in communist Romanian era. Back then the paper and the ink smelled like blood mixed with gunpowder to me and, to those who were next to me too.
Well, who said that framing business attracts the best ever living people from all azimuths?

Frame Harbor is an image and a wish more than anything else.
 
I disagree with Frame Harbor's style of presentation and some of his opinions more than I agree, but, I do not deny his right to speak his opinion any more than I would expect to be denied mine on this forum.

There comes a time during the nit-picking that we should let well enough alone. I have some suggestions.

If you see a post by Frame Harbor, and you don't like Frame Harbor, DON'T READ ANY OF THE POSTS. It's like watching a show on TV that you KNOW you don't like but you watch it simply to pick it apart after it is over.

If you post to his posts, aren't you an accessory to encouraging more posts of like nature??

Let's get on with things and learn to make intelligent decisions about what we choose to read or expose ourselves to and move on.

I, for one, am getting as tired of reading the innermost critiques of this guy as I am reading some of his posts.

Who, other than ArtLady really CARES how and why he picked the login name that he picked?? My gosh, I hope I don't have to answer for the login "Framerguy"!

Let it go and let's get back to the purpose of this forum, please.

Framerguy
 
Framerguy,

You are on your way to become my second best loved Grumbler. The first one moved with more determination and pleaded for the outright boycotting of Frame Harbor. And I'm not kidding. I do like him a lot for more than that, though.

On the other hand, I do admire you for your position on everybody's right to freely voice any opinions in this forum. So far you are the first to openly agree with freedom of speech for its own sake, regardless of its content or tone. Support for consensual opinions free flow is usually easier to gather. (This freedom matter would make for a good poll)
 
Make no mistake, Cornell, I don't know anything about you. And, chances are, you wouldn't be one of the people that I would invite out for a beer or chili dog if I lived in Queens. But, I spent time fighting for these freedoms that so many of us seem to take for granted in this great country. I am every bit a patriot and I believe in a person's right to be heard, no matter how bawdy or dispicable his/her opinions may be. Some of my close friends were killed defending these rights and I can't help but remember that I could have as easily joined their ranks had circumstances been different.

I am simply getting a gut full of the childish bantering back and forth about such trivial points on a forum that, I was under the impression, was devoted to framing questions.

This is the final word I have to say on this thread. Let it go. Let it die a natural death and get on with that which we ALL are interested in learning something about, namely, matting, framing, art, and the profession we all chose to follow.

Framerguy
 
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