Help Old pricelists need new updates, without POS systems!

[Elizabethemd]

I am currently working for a small digital fine art printing, custom frame shop. Hardships across the economic line makes it hard to sustain in this art/frame world. One thing, after talking with my office manager, we realized that our prices lists, besides some scribbles, have not been updated since 1999. Even if work pours in, we will still lose! Before we use the energy to sell, we need updated prices.
The tricky part is my boss, wonderful, but difficult to change. He doesn't want to "plug" in and "spit" out numbers on a computer.
So my questions revolve around price structure for framing/post press. What is the best way to price acid free mat board (w. and w.out window cuts), UV glass, fit and hardware, foam core dry mount, lamentation..... Is it best to price per square inch?
It is so overwhelming , please tell me there is a magic formula? (I am good at math!)
Any leads, will be greatly appreciated!

 

[Kirstie]

I am currently working for a small digital fine art printing, custom frame shop. Hardships across the economic line makes it hard to sustain in this art/frame world. One thing, after talking with my office manager, we realized that our prices lists, besides some scribbles, have not been updated since 1999. Even if work pours in, we will still lose! Before we use the energy to sell, we need updated prices.
!

It would help to know where you are located. My best advice in this situation is to find your local sales reps. Start with Larson Juhl. Call them and find out who the rep is. Then ask for a copy of thier pricing guide. There used to be one in the front of thier price list. I'm not sure if it s there now, but a rep should be able to help you. Using a guide like this is not ideal but if you have nowhere to start, this would be better than nothing and you could adapt from there.

 

[David Waldmann]

First, welcome to The Grumble!

Hardships across the economic line makes it hard to sustain in this art/frame world.

At least you have a reason:

...our prices lists, besides some scribbles, have not been updated since 1999.

And, you understand the impact:

Even if work pours in, we will still lose!

And the hurdle the business must overcome:

The tricky part is my boss, wonderful, but difficult to change.

There are shops operating successfully without a POS (Point Of Sale system a/k/a computer) to do their pricing. However, for the very reason you allude to (no price changes in over 10 years), a POS makes it very easy to keep up with things. Suppose you spend the next two weeks getting all your prices updated, and the next day you get a new price list from Vendor A and then a month later another from Vendor B? If you or your boss has the discipline to sit down the minute you get the new price list and update everything, all you are out is a bit of potentially productive (a/k/a profitable) time. But if you don't, you are out the difference in your old price and the proper new price.

Just to expand on that - it's not just the difference in the Cost of Materials, but presuming your prices are based on your Cost, not only did your cost go up, but you also lost the increase you would have gained by a higher selling price. Say you mark up your materials x 3 (I have no idea if that's a good way or a good number, it's merely for illustrative purposes). So if you pay $1.00 you sell for $3.00. If your cost goes up $0.05, you are actually losing $0.15 because your price should have gone up to $3.15.

Ok, your boss doesn't like change. I understand, most people don't. Does he like to earn a living? I won't say that a POS will magically make the business successful, but it will at least give it half a chance. Depending on the sales volume of the shop, missing price increases for one year could easily be $10-30,000 (5% on $200-500,000 sales). Over the last 12 years you could have easily given away a half million dollars in profit. Clearly, the fact that prices have not been updated in over 10 years indicates that keeping up with pricing is not your boss's strong point. He might be willing to change if he understood the potential impact.

This is beyond all the other advantages of a POS - reduction of errors in both pricing and execution of orders, legitimacy of quote prices, ease of duplication of previous orders, maintenance of a database of customers, and no doubt many others.

Sorry I didn't answer your question, but I believe the wrong question was asked...

Either way your boss goes, best of luck - it would be a shame to see another independent fall by the wayside.

 

[homeaccents]

Welcome to the G Elizabeth...........You've made a great start helping your boss by coming on here.......Great information, from great folks!!!

You are obviously computer literate......... maybe you can help your boss with that hurdle, which can be quite overwhelming, for sure........... but perhaps if you were to offer to learn the system and break it down for him, that would make you not only invaluable as an employee to him, but also...........trust me......will make your life soooooo much easier!!!!

If getting a POS is completely out of the question however, starting with your Larson Juhl rep is very good advise from Kirstie.

 

[Elizabethemd]

Small Small business

Here are my wary thoughts on the computer system besides my boss.
We are a small small business. Our business is probably 1/3 framing, 2/3 printing. (The difference may decrease when we get a functioning framing guide!)We probably take in roughly 10 frames a week. (Once again, I would love this to increase!) Is there a computer system that would specifically be aimed at small volume frame shops? (Simple and easy...)
Thanks again for the responses, I am excited to be on this forum
Elizabeth,
A framer in a poor but eclectic rust belt city

 

[Elizabethemd]

Hi Kristie,
I do not have an account with Larson Juhl, is there a way to get a copy of this online somewhere?
Thanks,
Elizabeth

 

[homeaccents]

There are sooo many POS options to choose from, there is another thread going on right now in the G called "Advise for opening my new shop", and on it you will find several very reliable folks talking about the POS systems they use and feel that they would not want to be without. We currently us RM from Wizard, and just pay a montly lease, which definately pays for itself time and time again.

I don't think any one POS is better than another, they all have different characteristics, (including some that make it possible to use for selling other items, like your printing) so I would recommend looking into a few and getting a feel for what might be right for your shop.

Whatever you decide.........I truely wish you all the best!

Jeni

 

[David Waldmann]

Is there a computer system that would specifically be aimed at small volume frame shops? (Simple and easy...)

Mike Labbe has a link in his signature called "Framer Stuff" that has a fairly comprehensive compilation of commercially available POS packages with a list non-biased features. You can find his signature on his profile page. Many of the products have demos available for you to try out before purchasing.

 

[Mike Labbe]

First of all, WELCOME to our forum of framers!

Ten frames per week is a fairly decent volume, and certain not among the smallest of shops on this forum. That kind of volume is certainly worth considering a system to keep everything accurate and organized.

A computer (if needed) will probably run about $500, including the laser printer. There are Dell deals all the time for about $400, and Brother lasers are always on sale for about $50 at Staples.com. I will be glad to find a deal for you, if desired.

If you don't already have it.... You will want internet access at the shop, to get the daily price updates. (FIOS, DSL, CABLE INTERNET, etc)

The POS software is relatively inexpensive, and the payback in your case will probably be a VERY short time. There's a neutral comparison list link in my tagline that shows all the current vendors, prices, 5 year cost of ownership, and contact info so you can get free demos. There's also a Grumble poll link there where you can see how your online peers compare, with their choices and how many of us are doing it (manually vs POS)

When you install the product, it will be set for an industry average price. This is only meant to be a STARTING POINT, and should (absolutely!) be adjusted for your particular market. Rents and expenses are much higher in NYC than they are in TN, for example, so the retail prices will probably reflect this different cost of doing business. It's not difficult, but something that shops overlook. Note: The same advice applies if you use a vendor's suggested markup (paper) chart, which wasnt designed for your local market or profit requirements.

The computer brings a lot of benefits, and you can even use it to sell printing, art, gifts, and other misc items. I posted some advice about this for someone yesterday, in another thread. Rather than typing it again, here's a quote from the other thread:

Doing it on the screen is considerably faster, especially when the customer wants to compare different mats, mouldings, fabrics, fillets, and glazing choices. Just wave the other one by the barcode scanner (or type in the #), and you instantly have the new price (with tax).

Price updates come in from the various vendors on a daily basis, rather than on a yearly price chart that may or may not be sent/processed in a timely manner. There's less chance of leaving money on the table, because you're charging last month's (or last year, or 3 years ago) prices. You set the markup rules, and it uses the current vendor price as the base for the formula. The time saved from manually updating prices, or even looking them up in a book while selling, is probably considerable.

When something is discontinued, you are notified right away - rather than the once yearly paper price list update. You'll know to yank the sample off the wall. The system will warn you that it has been discontinued, if you try to sell it. This saves the embarrassment of having the customer come back in to choose an alternate.

Paperwork will be concise, and the customer customer copy (invoices/receipts or quotes) lack item/part numbers - which could be taken to a competitor or big box. The workorder goes to the back room only, and has all the measurements and details.

Your materials shopping list will be automatically created for you, as will customer history, mailing list, accounts receivable tracking, back room scheduling calendar and "to do" lists, and daily/monthly financial reports. You'll find that customers will be less likely to haggle.

You can also use any of the popular POS systems to sell art, gifts, supplies, etc. They can track commissions and consignments. Most of them can even process credit cards, or hook up to an optional automatic cash drawer, barcode reader, label printer, or email customers when their orders are ready.

I'm only scratching the surface, with some of the benefits. Jim Miller wrote a great article about this a few years ago, for PFM.

If you have any questions or would like me to help you find a suitable computer, don't hesitate to email me through the forum or website.

The systems all do pretty much the same thing, but each have their strengths and personalities. It's best to narrow it down to a few contenders, then try the free demos to see which one feels best. It may take a day or so to get used to it, but you will never want to go back to pen and paper once you do

Best regards and happy evaluating!
Mike Labbe
Get The Picture
Lincoln, RI

 

[JFeig]

A POS system for picture framers can also be modified to price your digital imaging with the use of price matrix tweaking. You can also have line items for digitizing, color correction, digital restoration, etc.

 

[Cavalier]

Welcome!

I understand where you're coming from. At our shop, we don't use a POS, unless you count me. Because I'm weird with numbers. But we do have a computer with OpenOffice (a free, open-source version of Microsoft Office.)

Every January, when it's usually our slow period, I'll call up distributors and get current information about discontinues and price increases. Usually they say "we'll be doing that in March" or some other month, so I mark it down in my notebook and check back then.

What we do:

Have a three-ring binder with a list of all our moulding in the shop, with columns for distributor, profile, colour if applicable (like Nielsen and Vermont Hardwood), price per foot and width. Yes, it is time consuming the first time around, but it's worthwhile. Cross out all the prices on your samples, because you don't want to have your customer see an old price (has happened to us with Nielsen moulding before. An old sticker from ten years ago for a moulding that had jumped 100% in price since then means no profit.) Black sharpie works best. When price increase comes out, take the time to go through this hard copy to cross out deletions and highlight increases. In the computer, update this information and replace the old list with the new one. Not only do you really get to know the product you're selling, but it gets you out of dusting and vacuuming. (j/k, Bill!)

If you're a storefront, see if you can pick up Larson-Juhl as a distributor. They have lots of great documents on pricing on their website available for the trade. If you're a work-from-home, however, I'd recommend contacting one of your existing distributors and asking them if they have similar documentation and suggestions. And yes, I echo the others on this, but consider your overhead and adjust as needed.

Good luck, and again, welcome to the Grumble!

 

[mbboston]

Hi Kristie,
I do not have an account with Larson Juhl, is there a way to get a copy of this online somewhere?
Thanks,
Elizabeth

Here is L-J suggested price list from 2009, I don't remember seeing one in the latest catalog.

Note: THIS POST WAS EDITED
(((LJ PRICE CHART REMOVED BY MODERATOR MIKE, DUE TO NUMEROUS REPORTED POSTS)))
This is property of LJ, for their customers, and I dont think it belongs on a public website.
​

 

[FramerDave]

^ Um, is that something we really want posted on a forum that anyone can access?

 

[Jeff Rodier]

I don't see any problem with 2 1/2 year old RETAIL pricing being posted.

 

[Mike Labbe]

I took it down, for a variety of reasons.

(mostly because we received some loud complaints, and because it is likely proprietary for their customers only)

It also showed some wholesale and resulting retail ranges, for mats.

Mike

 

[nikfrz]

Thank you Mike. As always "johnny on the spot".

 

[Shayla]

Hi, Elizabeth! Welcome to the Grumble. :smiley:

I work at that sort of shop, too, with a boss who
won't even consider using a POS. No magic solution
to report, but I understand where you're coming from.

 

[wvframer]

There are some excellent deals on computers superior to the one I am using right now in the $250 range. You do not need the best and the brightest computer to use POS. I am averaging 6 years per computer, and when I replaced the last one, I was still running my POS without any decrease in performance.

Some POS software vendors are offering month-to-month rental programs in the $30 mo. range. Almost all of them offer free trials or demos. Cost is not a big issue for even a very small shop.

I am seeing 4-6 price increases per year these days from some suppliers, so even an annual update on paper costs money.

 

[Elizabethemd]

Thank you for all your time and advice. After speaking wiht my office manager, I think a POS system is simply not something we can invest in right now. (Unfortunately, I need to get a paycheck!) Frame ready seems amazing, but I think we will have to hold off for a little while. Back to the paper and pencil. Thank you for your advice with Larson Juhl, I created an account, and just waiting for a sales representative to get in touch.
Does anyone offer finishing services, such as mounting, cold press laminating? We have an old crank press, it is super fun. When I was looking through our prices for these, i saw the pricelist is from 1990! Ahhhhhhh.
I think I am going to switch all of our prices to united inches, including printing.
Getting a new binder, and just thinning through (we no longer offer silver gelatin printing, but we have the pricelist!) will help mentally to start this pricing adventure.

 

[homeaccents]

Does anyone offer finishing services, such as mounting, cold press laminating? We have an old crank press, it is super fun.

I think you will find several on this forum who will be very happy to help out a fellow framer with these services..........it may be a good idea to fill out your profile, at least your location, so that those close by can offer up.

 

[JFeig]

Elizabeth,

For what it is worth. I understand your concern. BUT, creating a price list is the responsibility of the owner/manager and not an hourly employee.

 

[Pat Murphey]

If you have some skills with Excel, you can write a pricing worksheet like this. Wholesale price list is on another page. I have no trouble getting excel formatted price lists from most of my suppliers. I reduce them to the columns; ID#(sometimes I have to add supplier letter to avoid duplicates in this lookup column), Description (can be blank), Width, chop price (and length if needed), plus my formula for retail, and a letter to ID the supplier. The supplier ID allows you to resort the price lookup table to delete/add new prices.

 

[Bob Doyle]

You say you can't afford a computer and POS. Using a price sheet from 1999 you can't afford NOT to have a computer and POS.

Dell deals and LifeSaver will cost you less than the money you are losing on every frame.

in 1999 a case of glass cost me $23 and I put glass in frames for under $10 typically. Today the same case is around $60. So you are paying customers to use glass.

Alpha Mats cost under $5 back then. "Expensive" ones were under $10. $12 for silk. You are paying customers to use mats.

Moulding is no longer 26¢ a foot. So you are probably losing money on each foot of moulding.

My fitting charge used to be $8.

What is your time worth today?

When you show a customer the "real" price their frame job will be, well I would prefer to point to a computer screen and say, "it says $###.##, how would you like to pay for that?" With a hand written form the customers first response was always "can you do better?" with the computer screen they say "wow, what cool software..." OK they say "gulp" but are less likely to try to talk a computer into giving them a discount.....

I like my POS because it 1. keeps track of customers and their orders, 2. is easy as pi to update the pricing, 3. takes the blame for higher prices

mainly the record keeping was my biggest need.

 

[Dave]

Bob also said it well. A POS more than pays for itself.

I know you are not in a position to make that decision, but it is one of the best investments a frame shop can make in terms of record keeping, pricing, time saving and profitability.

 

[Bob Doyle]

Bob also said it well.

Thanks Dave.

A POS more than pays for itself.
.

Very, very true. Before you embark on this pricing update project do a time estimate of how long you think it'll take. And be realistic Estimate how long it'll take you to get "proficient" at manipulating a spreadsheet. Try to figure out how long it'll take to contact each supplier and get the data files from them.

In my eyes that would easily be a 2-3 week endeavor. After all you'll have to come up with a spreadsheet design, figure out the mark ups you want to use, get your boss to OK the mark ups and then OK the resulting figures...

Then calculate your hourly cost into that equation. Then add to that the cost of the frame jobs you couldn't do because your time was spent updating the pricing. As a "boss" if an employee said I got no framing done (no income generated) for the past 5 days because I was updating the pricing I wouldn't be a "happy boss" even if I told you to do a "framing work shut down" to get the pricing updated.... when I had someone "Just" rearrange the moulding wall, and it took 6 weeks I wasn't "too happy", even though I told her to do it I am bothered it took so long. Even though when I did it myself this spring it took longer

If you can come in under $1000 then you are probably not doing the time estimates right And a $400 yearly license and a $400 Dell would do the updating job in under a day.

So you could save yourself the time and headache of a task you are looking at taking on by realizing the cost benefit analysis is not in your favor, getting a computer and POS is.

If the boss says not worth it, then remind him that there'll be a price updating "work shut down" again in less than 6 months. BTW, how are you accessing the Grumble? Is it on a computer at work? If so then you have just saved the cost of a computer. Download the demos (I like LifeSaver, but FrameReady is awesome too). Spend time mocking up orders, then mock up the same order at work. Show the boss what you are losing on each job, the cost of a computer and POS, and how many jobs at the new pricing it would take to pay for the set up. I'm thinking less than 25 if the price sheets are as out of date as you fear Unless you were obscenely overpriced in 1999 that is

 

[Bob Doyle]

Crazy thing just happened.

A person called while I had finished typing my last {wordy} response. He asked about a poster I frame for someone "year ago". Instead of having to crawl through boxes I just typed in "smirkus" in the search box and pulled up the order.

I saw the discounts I gave the person, the quantity, price. Copied it and gave a current estimate for 5 more.

I don't think I would have even found the original invoice or box the invoice was in yet. probably would have still been looking for the light switch to the "back closet"

 

[Evan]

Elizabeth,
Not to sound like like a broken record but, I use lifesaver and I love it. Your boss sounds allot like my father. He saw no need for any type of computer in the frame shop. (you gonna get any work done, or just play around on that #### computer?) I have been "computerized" for about 2 years now and I think it played a major role in surviving the economic atmosphere we live in today. It takes all the guess work out of the pricing and, that does not even begin to scratch the surface of what it can do.
It does take a while to learn the software, but it's worth it. Had I been a little smarter I would have joined the grumble when I first started out. Most likely would have made my life easier when I first got it but, whatever, better late than never.
There is something to be said for updating your entire price list with one mouse click.
Evan
Ps. Welcome to the grumble. Nice to see someone with fewer posts than me.

 

[johnny]

Crazy thing just happened.

A person called while I had finished typing my last {wordy} response. He asked about a poster I frame for someone "year ago". Instead of having to crawl through boxes I just typed in "smirkus" in the search box and pulled up the order.

I saw the discounts I gave the person, the quantity, price. Copied it and gave a current estimate for 5 more.

I don't think I would have even found the original invoice or box the invoice was in yet. probably would have still been looking for the light switch to the "back closet"

----------------------------


Sort of the same thing here... we had hardly a soul through the door today except for pickups. Just more repairs, small ones "Can you just put paper on the back of this and new wire?" $24 worth, yay. But we received orders from all over the place via fax, email and even courier. A hospital too far away to conveniently visit sent over artwork to be framed and hung and since the POS software saves all paperwork as PDFs as well as physically printing it out we just entered the order and attached the PDF to an email and just a short time later a purchase order is emailed back... go go go technology.

A dozen piece order comes through on the fax and same thing there, enter and email PDF.

A photographer calls and wants 200 mats cut cuz he's ramping up for some shows... reproducing previous work just bring it up, copy order, and reprint 10 seconds work.

Yesterday I had to wipe the computer I use the most and reinstall windows and didn't get my own email set back up until today. Turned it on and an order had been waiting since yesterday from a company in Columbus several hours drive away. Duplicate the previous order and deliver.... by the end of next week! Bring up their history, copy the order, reprocess it, email them an invoice... took barely longer than it just did to type it here.

Actually did get a customer while I was typing all that though and she was a real witch. Literally!

 

[Bob Doyle]

Christine O'Donnell was in your shop?

 

[johnny]

Christine O'Donnell was in your shop?

Oh man that would be so hot.

No but this one was sucking a lollipop and I had to laugh cuz she's talking with it in her mouth literally saying "Mmmmsdpph drrrrrp mppmpp, mmmmpH!" They she removes it and says "Hello!"

 

[wpfay]

Lets see...cost of POS and computer roughly $800.00 the first year and $400 for the following years until the computer dies...say 5 years total, so a $2400 commitment over 5 years.
You are producing an average of 10 frames per week, 520 frames per year, and 2600 frames over 5 years...that's less than $1.00/frame to own a POS.

As has been mentioned, you cannot afford to not have a POS. If you figure in saved time in both the management side and the accounting side, you are probably saving money by owning a POS.

To carry Johnny's concept one step farther...we get orders via email with a copy of the artwork attached. We download, print, frame and deliver the work all within about 24-48 hours all facilitatied by quick estimates (POS) and Purchase Orders being sent on the www. You work in a print shop...this should really be a no-brainer.

Welcome to the Grumble. We do care.

 

[Cavalier]

Which reminds me, I need to bring home the work sheet template so that I may [strike]draft[/strike] [strike]coerce[/strike] [strike]manipulate[/strike] [strike]bribe[/strike] [strike]plead[/strike] work with my husband to build a workable point-and-click spreadsheet.

I think the issue at hand isn't the usefulness of POS. We all know how useful POS are. But there's reasonable distrust of technology, especially when it's in a less populated area. Also, consider the level of computer know-how. If you're only using a computer to surf the web and email, chances are you probably don't know how to set up a secure wireless network between three computers running three different OSes. And, as the IT person of the shop, guess who gets called on her sick days when something goes down? And if you don't have your own IT person? How many of us like calling tech support?

Ultimately, baby steps, my friends. Baby steps.

 

[Bob Doyle]

In 1995 that would have been a great excuse.

 

[j Paul]

Print this thread out and give it to the boss, maybe that will convince him/her that the shop really does need to have POS. It doesn't cost money, it will save and make money.

 

[Cavalier]

In 1995 that would have been a great excuse.

You're in Kennebunk, Bob, which is closer to modern civilisation than Waterville. It's still 1995 up here.

 

[Bob Doyle]

That's a good thing for you then. I hear that framing was making big bucks in the mid 90's And Waterville must be looking up, what with their mayor gone and all..... If nothing else it must be safe to go to Marden's again....

 

[Mike Labbe]

I would like to hear how this story ends. Hopefully it has a happy ending for the frame shop in crisis.

Mike