old frames w/small rectangular nails---age?

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BILL WARD

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Joined
Mar 25, 2004
Posts
2,451
Location
Tampa, FL
hi all
client came in with 2 old frames--thinks they are around late 1800's/early 1900's. They have very NARROW rabbits-just shy of 3/16 wide but 3/8 deep, and have 2-3 very thin rectangle shaped nails in each corner--the nails have flat/rectangular heads just slightly larger than the shaft. Currently the frames have a small inner frames that actually hold the paintings. The painting are supposedly done by a great or great/great(he cant remember), BUT the paintings are done on something very suspiciously akin to a very thin 'pressboard' like material..../definitely not the assumbed time frame....anyway my questions revolve around the nails---they really look the same size & there are no hammer marks on the shaft of the one sticking way out--probably 'commercial'? As all 8 corners are seperated(frame does have age on it), we were wanting to take frames apart, cleanup what little glue is still there(almost NONE from what I can see), and reglue/renail(using the original nails)...BUT as the frame shape is almost 2" hi & like a large "L", how do I surgically remove the nails W/O damaged to the frame(medium hard wood) to the nails? I've done this with 3-4 other frames in the past with so-so results. How to apply 90' pressure to the frame w/o harming it or putting something in the joint to pry apart w/o breaking/gouging the pieces??? I'm open for suggestions... thanks
Bill Ward
 
Leave it alone!!!
If you really are inclined to do this I suggest putting your frame corner in your vise. On one side have your vise completely closed with the frame butted against the back of the clamp. on the other side have the frame tightly vised. Slowly open the the clamp that has been closed until it "pops".
Do this to all four corners and the frame should be loose enough to start torqueing it back and forth slowly and cautiously until it can be pulled apart. You may also need to have a hacksaw at the ready to cut the nails as they become visible. Rarely were frames this old built without the nails driven in on opposing sides.

(Why do you want to reuse the old nails?)

Oh I forgot to say you should also clearly mark every corner so it can be rejoined the same way it was taken apart.
 
If you do have to cut the nails and still want to preserve the "integrity of the past" I have quite a few of these old square nails in various sizes and would be happy to send some.

My ancestor's rarely threw anything out. Anyone need a slide rule? How about a buggy whip?

;)

Dave Makielski

"Study history to learn from the past and provide for a better future."
 
I think puttyboy nailed this one on the head...why do you want to take the frames apart?

Dave Makielski
 
Squeeze some fresh glue in the gaps, work it in farther with a matboard scrap, then clamp that sucker tight and let it reset. If it is holding well enough to make taking it apart difficult then reinforce the corner don't risk damaging it farther. How are you going to replace it if the corners splinter and can't be rejoined?

I have these old spring clips that have to be put in place with a tool that is reminiscent to a tail docker I used to use on lambs as a child. Use this thing all the time to repair old frames, without it I would probably figure out a way to use my corner vises, or strap clamps to do the same job.

Good luck once customers find out you can fix old frames you may never sell new ones to them!
 
There are books available on the history of the nail. you can approximate dates of framing jobs by the nails and the glass used. Knowing the approximate age of a piece a customer brings in for "repair" can help you in deciding whether to attempt the job or refer it to a conservator.

Plus being knowledgable about practices of the past can boost your rep with the area antique dealers!
 
Spoken like a 'true picture framing god'
kaffeetrinker_2.gif
 
Eric, I'm learning to be more confident so I don't let the callers from the billing departments in those big Houston hospitals intimidate me.

I'm glad it's starting to show.
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Ive just renovated two frames that had these nails in, they are known as cut nails. As these were photographic images of my grand parents I can date them to to between 1914 and 1915. You will probably find the nails will break off when you try to remove them due to rust.The same type of nail was used to hold the frame together. You may also find any moulding on the frames is very delicate. The moulding on mine is like a plaster or thick gesso that has been moulded.
I had to touch up the paint in a couple of places and found artists Acrylics matched perfectly.
Mick
----------------
The impossible I can do today,
Miracles take a little longer
 
Stop guessing and get the FACTS from Cornel.

Secure one side of that frame into your vise and take the adjoining side apart by way of hammering into a wood block that's been pressed against the rabbet. Nails are tapered and you'll be surprised how easily joints will open and sides come apart. In that stage you need to hammer nails out by tapping against their respective points. Be prepared to fix those holes left into the four sides by the old nails.
If I were you, I'd clean off the old glue, merely shaving those joints clean before re-gluing the frame back together. Then I'd close those old nail track holes with glue and long splinters of wood. When that glue is cured, I'd reinsert the old nails back into frame's corners in very same spots they've been in before.

If you're not quite confident that you can handle this job, you are better of giving those frames to be rejoined to some qualified antique picture frame restorer in your area.
Try Conservart, Mr. George Shwartz in Boca Raton
tel: 561-482-7292; email to: info@conservart.com info@conservart.com
 
Yup, go figure! Do those Tremont nails come in 18th Century like rusted finish too?
If not, I know of a secretly kept method that European old masters used to oxidize their nails with, back in early 19-th Century, when in need to accurately restaurate their 18-th Century old picture frames ;) :D
 
Cornel, are you going to share the secret formula with us? I have no reason to do such a thing, but I'm very interested.


Eric, I'm learning to be more confident so I don't let the callers from the billin departments in those big Houston hospitals intimidate me.
Click to expand...
In the 70's that was called Assertiveness Training.
 
I'll bet the secret formula was Coca-Cola.

I wonder who first decided to try DRINKING the stuff.
 
thanks all----I'd already about talked me OUT of taking them apart, but really wanted everyone's inoput on the subject....big thanks for "George Shwartz in Boca" been trying to ID someone in 'this' neck of the woods...I'll be onto him this week!!
 
Baer,

Yo, waster, what's wrong with cheaper, plain rain water or a damp cellar, huh?? Besides, real
old masters used to save and reuse old nails anyway and, though I am not yet that old (master), I still may come up with a couple of 18-th C nails directly from my great-great-great-grand father's tool box


Bill Ward,

I did not check the map to see if Boca was conveniently near to your place. If you get in touch with George, give him Cornel's salutations from Romania.

Just saw you're North of St. Petersburg. Then perhaps Mr. Michael Murphy from Tampa,FL may help you with a name or two in your area. He's North-West Florida's best framer, I think.

[ 05-24-2005, 10:06 PM: Message edited by: Whynot ]
 
Cornell, you just know all the right people. Amazing that you never made it up to the Great Pacific North West.

PS: Vinager is much faster than rain water.
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Originally posted by Baer Charlton:
Cornell, you just know all the right people.
Click to expand...
Not quite so. I missed you, Baer. But I'll try to fix it when next time in The Great Pacific North West area. Although I covered the West Coast from Seatle to San Diego many times over, it takes long time untill I get to know enough many right people in such a large market.

Vinager is much faster than rain water.

True, but then you can't claim your allegience to the school of European old time rust masters' anymore. Your rust is not "hand made" but "mass produced in Taiwan" and it will cost accordingly. My method would give my clients the real thing, "the highest end rust ever" LOL ;)
 
On no Cornell, for you to be offering "the highest end rust ever" you would have to use holy water blessed by the pope.

Of course, there are those old nails with the blood stains on them....probably a little to large for framing.. :D
 
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