Of chickens and eggs

TheDoctah

MGF, Master Grumble Framer
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Posts
562
Loc
NH
I categorically decline to give any born-again-designers, "amateur" photographers, Whoa-people and such any meaningful discount till they bring in some volume.

Paul N's sentiment, expressed in "what say ye", illuminates a chicken and egg scenario. Amateur photographers (and artists as well, I guess) have a need for framing, but paying full freight retail is out of the question except for the independently wealthy because the best you can hope for is break even. And considering the investment you need to make to hang an exhibit, it's out of reach for the vast majority.

Now I perfectly understand the sentiment. Why should a framer eat into his (or her) profits to give a photographer or artist a price break with no guarantee of seeing the volume that would make it worthwhile? But how is the photographer supposed to get to the volume when paying full retail up front? Additionally, how is the photographer supposed to know what the volume pricing is going to be? (I think it's good to know what the goals are.) I mean, there's no point in suffering through the price pain if there's no promised land at the end of the day.

How do you guys work this? Do you have a volume schedule that says "when you get to X pieces the pricing will be cost + n% or retail - m%?" Or is the photographer/artist supposed to trust you that eventually there will be a price break?

I just know that the 13x19" prints that I frame with Neilsen mouldings, using 4ply rag mats, 2 ply rag backing, acid-free foam-core, and acrylic glazing costs me about $60 a pop. To get the same exact thing from a custom framer at full retail would be MUCH more expensive. (Q to grumblers- what would you charge?) Now this is a very vanilla sort of framing, but sometimes I want something a bit less plain. Say a float mount for a print with deckled edges. Well that's even more, but there's just no point in selling something with all of the profit going to other people. It seems to me that this is a natural fit; a business relationship that's like hand and glove, but I'm baffled by the mechanics of getting it started.

Thoughts?
 
How about a yearly or quarterly rebate program which is well spelled out to begin with?

Dave Makielski
 
Photographers just starting up need to approach their new venture in a business-like fashion.

Starting a new business has (sometimes) enormous start-up costs. It often takes years to just 'break even.'

I invested over $60,000 in my business, which I am still paying on. A photographer could buy a lot of custom picture framing with an amount comparable to that (and have plenty of time left to do what he/she does best, like run his/her business and make pictures...) and come nowhere close to that amount.

If you look at it like a business, you will see that you are not owed discounts just by being there, you have to earn them.

My volume discounts start at 10 identical pieces, ordered at one time, paid 1/2 up front and the balance at completion. I am happy to give the price for 10 pieces, 50 or 1000. The more anyone does at one time, the less the price per unit. The promise of 'more work to come' means NOTHING to me.

edie the itsthatsimple goddess
 
I give designers/decorators a break. the first time it isn't much but I tell them if they bring in multiple pieces somewhat regularly I will increase their break.

The same for almost anyone who is trying to make money off of my work. If they bring me in enough business that I don't have to chase after with advertising, then I help where I can and still turn a decent percentage.

If your trying to sell your artwork Edie is right, you pay retail for the film or paint and canvas, framing is just another part of the art, you should hope for a break but not expect it.

A thought, if artists want a break on framing what about giving the framer a print or two for free to offset the framing price. That is if the framer wants any of them to sell and thinks they are good enough to hang.

Could be a win win.
 
Ditto everything Edie said - we'll work with you, but there is that little thing called "overhead". The difference between my cost and your "full retail" pays the rent, turns on the lights, pays the tax man, etc. Whatever is left pays the mortgage on my house and other bills.

We have a small group of desingers (2 I think) who get a nice break - but they've earned it.

BTW we'd be around $150 or so on the FIRST one.

Tony
 
Originally posted by Framing Goddess:
My volume discounts start at 10 identical pieces, ordered at one time, paid 1/2 up front and the balance at completion. I am happy to give the price for 10 pieces, 50 or 1000. The more anyone does at one time, the less the price per unit. The promise of 'more work to come' means NOTHING to me.

edie the itsthatsimple goddess
Well said and makes absolute business sense.

You are a fiscal goddess too...
 
WHY IS IT OKAY to walk into a retail esablishment like ours and expect to not pay "full retail"? I don't ask my mechanic for the "wholesale" price and I pay the ticket price when I buy milk at the grocery.

We're not the flea market; we've got overhead and expenses like every other retail establishment; and we're entitled to make a fair wage, too.

I know the easy answer - the BBs that scream 50-60-70 off, etc. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the regular amateur/professioanl photographer-artist types who expect/demand such deals. Heaven forbid we ask for a deal at the doctor, ask for milk at a good discount 'cause I'm buying 4 gallons (!) or any such nonsense. JUST PAY THE PRICE

Tony
 
Tony, it's because they can.

Now on the other hand... let's walk into TheDoctah office and try to grind him down to a "reasonable" price on our brain surgury, or just an office visit, (just so noone thinks I'm comparing us to brain surgeons... :D ).

I personally think a doctors office visit shouldn't exceed $35. And for my $35, I should get to SEE the doc at the time that the appointment was made for.... and I should get at least 15 minutes of their time. ($140/hr is more than fair.)

And before someone starts whining about 12 years of school, may I remind them that my Vet, who spent just as much time and money to get her DVM, and has to spend just as much to keep up with her CEU, charges $30 for a office visit.

And then there was my 30+ years of experience???

Screw 'em. When our photogs bring in 6+ we knock off 10-20% because they also bring us their clients.
Decorators pay retail then we rebate 10% to them in time for Christmas... at the end of the year, it resets to "$0.00". Usually they run in just before Thanksgiving and spend their rebate and then some, getting their homes ready for the important party season.

Designers.... a whole bigger ball game.
 
I dabbled in wholesale framing for a short time. I lost money on every order, but made it up in volume.

Most of us aren't wholesale framers, but I'd give volume discounts for quantities of IDENTICAL items framed AT THE SAME TIME.
 
How about a yearly or quarterly rebate program which is well spelled out to begin with?

That's a reasonable approach. X% off of N pieces or more, Y% of M pieces or more, etc. The only thing is I'd not want to have to harangue the framer to get the discount. It would have to be contractual, because people have a funny way of promising things but not following through. Once they have your money, it takes the jaws of life to open the checkbook to get back what was agreed upon.
 
If you look at it like a business, you will see that you are not owed discounts just by being there, you have to earn them.

My volume discounts start at 10 identical pieces, ordered at one time, paid 1/2 up front and the balance at completion. I am happy to give the price for 10 pieces, 50 or 1000. The more anyone does at one time, the less the price per unit. The promise of 'more work to come' means NOTHING to me.


I wouldn't expect a promise discount. ;) But let's consider a real-life scenario. I manage to get accepted to hang at a local gallery, and they are looking for 10-20 pieces to put on the wall. Now if any of the pieces sell, the gallery's getting a fat cut. That's great. It's their gallery. But it's my work, too. There's just no way for me to make any money if I have to give the gallery owner his profit and the framer full retail profit.

BTW we'd be around $150 or so on the FIRST one.

Ok, and what about ordering them 5 at a time? 10? 20?

WHY IS IT OKAY to walk into a retail esablishment like ours and expect to not pay "full retail"? I don't ask my mechanic for the "wholesale" price and I pay the ticket price when I buy milk at the grocery.

Hey, if you could point me to a wholesale framer, I'd do whirly-twirlies. :D I guess that's what I'm really looking for.
 
Thanks guys for agreeing with me....


My point was that when I started my business I got nothing from everybody.

I don't know about you, but I didn't get a "discount" from the bank on my bank- loan!

How about the suppliers? Nobody said, "hey, you're the new guy, PLEASE, allow us to give you xyz discount on your orders!!!". You get my point.

Which brings me to another point: You give somebody a discount because, you have a special discount for a slow month, or you have an ad declaring such, or because they brought 5 items to be framed, and so on.

Now, the next time this person comes in, they expect a discount!

Why do people expect a discount each time?? Do they get a discount at the gas station? Why not? They go there weekly after all, but they don't dare ask for a discount. How about the doctor? The hairdresser, the dry-cleaners? But they sure expect one at the frame-shop!

I am trying, gently, to educate my customers that a discount is not a given. It is something I give at my own discretion or to reward soemthing (repeat business, volume, loyalty, etc). But I know it won't be easy knowing the mentality.
 
Doc:
Wholesale framers I know of are looking at minimum runs of around 100 pieces or so --- and that'll almost certainly be commercial-grade framing, not custom-gallery show quality finish projects.

Most store-front custom framers will do whirly twirlies to get an order from you for 10-20 pieces at a time(at least we would); that's just not enough to qualify (in most shops) for the $60-$70 price I guess you're looking for. In our gallery, on jobs like this we usually figure a time-and-materials+reasonable (for me) profit, rather than a straight discount from retail.

BTW the term "starving artist" does have a basis in reality. I just don't want to be the starving framer. :D
 
My point was that when I started my business I got nothing from everybody.

Did you have to pay <u>your</u> suppliers full retail? Or did you pay them wholesale? I'm not talking about people walking in off the street looking for a discount; I'm talking about a business relationship. The former has been hashed and rehashed on the grumble; I don't think there's a lot of unexplored territory there.


that's just not enough to qualify (in most shops) for the $60-$70 price I guess you're looking for.

I don't think $60-70 would be a <u>mutually beneficial</u> price. I'm just trying to keep others from getting all the profit. If we can't share it, there's not much motivation on this end, if you know what I mean. I guess if you guys are all busy all the time getting all the retail business you can service, there's no motivation for you to entertain this sort of relationship.

A thought, if artists want a break on framing what about giving the framer a print or two for free to offset the framing price. That is if the framer wants any of them to sell and thinks they are good enough to hang.

Could be a win win.


I'd go for this. Win/win is exactly what I'm looking for. What I'm hearing is a lot of people think only one party can "win", and I don't believe that.
 
(Hopefully) my last post on the subjest:

Doc:
Since you asked and I volunteered, what's your "mutually beneficial" price? I assume somewhere between your current $60 and the "full freight retail" you loathe to pay.

Not to beat the dead horse, but materials costs are only a small part of the equation - and they are a bit flexible depending on volume,etc. It's not that our stores are running at 100% capacity - but the fixed overhead - rent, utilities, mortgage, etc. remain constant. Those HAVE to be paid. We get to keep the leftovers, and a "cheap" job doesn't always leave a lot left over.
 
Doc, I don't know about where you are, but in this burg there are two wholesalers that offer full framing services to anyone with a heartbeat and a $5.00 state tax certificate. They will also sell materials at their "wholesale" level. I don't deal with them because their pricing is considerably higher than other suppliers, and because they cross the line between wholesale and retail. Not all people feel the same as I do about their business model.

Sweat equity is about the only way that a photographer or decorator can prime the pump when they hit the next step in their professionalization without the infusion of cash.

A thought about dealing with galleries. Agree on their "fat cut", but only from the profit margin. Expenses are expenses and they should be covered before you start divvying up the pie.
 
I do more than just dabble in wholesale framing. I have recently lost 2 furniture stores that was selling my pre-framed art. They went out of business. I have some additional time right now until I find another volume customer.

If TheDoctah would like, give my some matboard and moulding numbers. With OEM or Clark metal I could get you somewhere between 40 and 50 bucks a piece if you do 50 at a time identically.

The question of witch comes first. I will quote volume pricing for customers, then they bring in one and expect the volume price. You can't walk into a retail frame shop and "promise" volume and expect a deep discount.

Bottom line, if you want volume pricing, then you place volume orders.


Or how about this, get someone to cut your mats and find a ready made at a Big Box and assemble them yourself.
 
Hey Doc,

You are probably about 4-5 hours away from me down 95.

Next time you need framing done and if I am in a position to help send me an email and we'll talk.

Last time I was up your way was two years ago but shipping could be a great alternative to driving.

Just a thought.
 
Originally posted by TheDoctah:

I wouldn't expect a promise discount. ;) But let's consider a real-life scenario. I manage to get accepted to hang at a local gallery, and they are looking for 10-20 pieces to put on the wall. Now if any of the pieces sell, the gallery's getting a fat cut. That's great. It's their gallery. But it's my work, too. There's just no way for me to make any money if I have to give the gallery owner his profit and the framer full retail profit.
Doc, it sounds less like you have an issue with the pricing of framing than you do with your own pricing.

Your retail pricing needs to take into account all of your costs. This includes the photography costs, the framing costs, the marketing costs (the gallery) and your profit. If you ain't makin' enough, you ain't chargin' enough. Getting this formula right is the main task of any retail professional.

Like all of us, I have done heaps of 'wholesale framing' (I prefer to call this 'volume framing') for exhibiting artists. Many of them have negotiated a deal in advance with the gallery- they work out the pricing so that their framing costs get backed out first. Some galleries are open to that, others just want to keep it simpler. It couldn't hurt to check into it.

edie the justadditup goddess
 
Or how about this, get someone to cut your mats and find a ready made at a Big Box and assemble them yourself.

This is more or less what I've been doing. I've been buying chops, precut mats, and precut glazing and doing the work myself. Which is fine, because I enjoy doing it and I am able to maximize the quality of materials this way, which is very important to me. I'd like to branch out a bit from the metal frames, however, and do some non-standard size work, as well as some float mounting and such. And there's the expectation that at some point I'm going to have more volume than makes sense for me to do on my own (one hopes, but you might as well be optimistic.) So if I could find what amounts to a framing supplier, that would be ideal. One that is local would be even more ideal. ;) But truthfully, shipping isn't a huge deal, and I'm not opposed to driving to e.g. Jersey if that's what I need to do.

Next time you need framing done and if I am in a position to help send me an email and we'll talk.

Sounds good. And I wouldn't be opposed to throwing in a couple of open edition prints as an enticement.

Doc, it sounds less like you have an issue with the pricing of framing than you do with your own pricing.

Your retail pricing needs to take into account all of your costs. This includes the photography costs, the framing costs, the marketing costs (the gallery) and your profit. If you ain't makin' enough, you ain't chargin' enough. Getting this formula right is the main task of any retail professional.


I guess what makes me different from most customers is that the framing isn't my end product; the complete artwork is. The framing is only part of what I'm selling. In a word, it's part of my "supplies". Just as your volume and profit are affected by your pricing (and COGS!), so are mine. I'm not doing anything differently from any other business that wants to prosper in trying to control my costs.
 
Just a side thought here....

If the retail framing cost is $150, the you are selling the art framed for $200 or unframed for $180...

what does that say about custom framing...?

subliminally it suggests that somewhere, you are getting a heck of a deal on framing that your customers can not.

And personally I precieve that to say, that custom framers charge more than we are worth...much like doctors and plumbers.
 
Doc,

If you can get those frames for $60, why are you asking custom framers to do business with you. I have a 10% discount for customers in the "trades" built into my pricing. I will work with any customer with a volume order IF the order allows me to buy materials more effectively. However, your plea begs the question - Why should I give my profit away to another businessman? The answer is clear to me. NO!

Pat :D
 
If the retail framing cost is $150, the you are selling the art framed for $200 or unframed for $180...

what does that say about custom framing...?


Your assumptions are incorrect, except for the retail cost of the framing.

If you can get those frames for $60, why are you asking custom framers to do business with you.

I think I've already addressed this point, but to reiterate:

1) I don't always want standard dimensions.
2) I don't always want Nielsen 15 or 117 in matte black with a single 4 ply snow white mat.
3) Sometimes I want to do something different (like wood frames, float mounts, etc.
4) I'm willing to pay more than my materials cost for the framing.

However, your plea begs the question - Why should I give my profit away to another businessman? The answer is clear to me. NO!

I'm delighted that you have enough business that you can afford to turn business away. It's pretty much an ideal situation to be able to sell everything at top dollar, and I commend you for having achieved that degree of success. I don't think that every framer has that luxury, and I would imagine that some framers recognize that additional volume at a lower profit takes a significant bite out of the fixed costs, especially when one is not busy.

In my (day job) business, this mentality is pretty well codified in the pricing schemes. Among other things, I design printed circuit boards for commercial, space, and military applications. While volume is a key cost driver, so is urgency. PCB houses correctly recognize that idle time on the line costs nearly as much as busy time, except for material costs. So you can order your boards with what is known as a 10 day turn (10 business days after receipt of order until the shipment of completed boards), which is relatively cheap, or 5 day turn which is significantly more expensive, or a 3 day turn which is painfully expensive (but when time is of the essence, often less than the opportunity cost.) Now if PCB houses were (some) framers, they'd turn away all but the "3 day turn" business, because they'd only want to bring in the business that had the highest margins. And that's a perfectly valid model, if you have enough business. But it seems to me, all things being equal, that I'd rather have low days than 0 days.

Look, I perfectly understand your "Why should I give my profit away to another businessman?" I feel precisely the same way, which is the reason I'm not about to give full retail profit to <u>any</u> supplier. If someone wants to <u>share</u> the profit, I'm in. If they want it all for themselves? No sale.
 
Which we get right back to the original premise:

If you bring me the 20 images for your show, and you give me full credit at the show (and I don't mean just my sticker on the back) but a "framed by". Then we can do some business, because my deep discount is buying some advertizing.

But when you sell an additional 3 images and bring them to me and want them in my usual 2 week turn around (slow season or not) why would you expect me to discount the work to a quantity level when 3 is not a quantity?

You can by soup at CostCo by the case and get 10% off. But one can of soup at CostCo would cost you about twice as much. 48 vs 1.

The first memory chip costs $450,000 to make, the next 500 only cost $5,000 each. Then they go into production.....
 
If you bring me the 20 images for your show, and you give me full credit at the show (and I don't mean just my sticker on the back) but a "framed by". Then we can do some business, because my deep discount is buying some advertizing.

Sounds good. Mutual benefit.

But when you sell an additional 3 images and bring them to me and want them in my usual 2 week turn around (slow season or not) why would you expect me to discount the work to a quantity level when 3 is not a quantity?

As a reasonable guy, I'm going to be sensitive to your workload and any time constraints on my end. For work that I bring you that has a time urgency, I'm going to expect that to cost more, and my clients will naturally be expected to bear that. But if I bring 3 more standard pieces and we agree that they can languish until you aren't busy, I'd be hoping to maintain most of the discount. It's not costing you any "front counter" time. And if your kid needs senior pictures or you see an image in my portfolio that you're especially fond of, you're gonna get a substantial discount (and with an open edition print you'd be getting the ultimate discount.) But if you're going to treat me like a stranger when I walk in the 3 additional prints, where's the business relationship?
 
For the 20, I ordered length or premade...

for the 3, I would have to order chop.

So where we become friends and stay friends, is you do your job and don't have a crappy show.

Sell most of all in the show, and sell many re-orders so it makes it worth my time to order right, to treat you right. Right?
 
You know if framers became farmers maybe then we coud take care of all these straving artists, but not until then. Then where would they get framing? It just seems that they are never satisfied!
Patrick Leeland
 
I'm back....

Business relationships - ongoing relationship with a volume customer. Enough volume to justify buying and stocking (up front - on spec) various sizes and finishes, just for this customer. Serious investment on the shop's side, with nothing more than the expectation of ongoing business.

The customer flounders and goes out of business, goes to another supplier, etc. Who gets stuck with the investment??
 
Look, I perfectly understand your "Why should I give my profit away to another businessman?" I feel precisely the same way, which is the reason I'm not about to give full retail profit to any supplier. If someone wants to share the profit, I'm in. If they want it all for themselves? No sale.
Someone that sold you a stick or two of moulding would be your supplier. What you're asking is that a custom framer change his or her business model because you don't like it. You're a customer to them, not a business partner.

It seems pretty simple to me; if you want a volume discount then bring in some volume of identical pieces. If you want a "repeat business" discount then you have to be prepared to build up a history.

If you can't work the cost of custom framing into your business model it's your business model that has to change (e.g., buy the equipment and DIY).
 
[As a reasonable guy, I'm going to be sensitive to your workload and any time constraints on my end. For work that I bring you that has a time urgency, I'm going to expect that to cost more, and my clients will naturally be expected to bear that. But if I bring 3 more standard pieces and we agree that they can languish until you aren't busy, I'd be hoping to maintain most of the discount. It's not costing you any "front counter" time. And if your kid needs senior pictures or you see an image in my portfolio that you're especially fond of, you're gonna get a substantial discount (and with an open edition print you'd be getting the ultimate discount.) But if you're going to treat me like a stranger when I walk in the 3 additional prints, where's the business relationship? [/QB]
On paper that sounds god but in real life you probably would not be that way, at least a high majority of artists would not.

If you are getting 20 of them done then I would be able to buy the moulding from my supplier at a better discount than if I was buying enough for 3, That difference could be 20%.

Let's say that I am nice and split the difference and charge you 10% more for the 3. You will complain that your costs just went up 10% and you can't raise your retail price up 10% because your customers have seen that piece already framed at your original price or it may be hanging next to one the exact same size that is 10% less.

Offering product in return is fine but how does anyone know if it is a fair trade? You may be offering a $5 open edition (your cost) which you retail at $40.00 and want a discount of $40.00 in return that actually is $12.00 our cost? Then to boot, the print stays on the wall for a year before it sells..where is the shared profit there?

Will you be treated like a stranger, no but you have to realize that getting a discount to begin with is something a stranger wouldn't get.
 
If you want a "repeat business" discount then you have to be prepared to build up a history.

I'm fine with that, but only if the discount and terms are agreed to ahead of time. The nebulous promise of a future unspecified discount doesn't encourage me to pay now and hope for a discount later. I'm sure you understand. It's no different from you having to give your full discount up front on a one piece order and hoping to get unspecified volume later.
 
On paper that sounds god but in real life you probably would not be that way, at least a high majority of artists would not.

I've always stuck out from the crowd. ;)

Let's say that I am nice and split the difference and charge you 10% more for the 3. You will complain that your costs just went up 10% and you can't raise your retail price up 10% because your customers have seen that piece already framed at your original price or it may be hanging next to one the exact same size that is 10% less.

I'd be fine with that. It's a given that when you buy lower volume, you get a less good price.

Offering product in return is fine but how does anyone know if it is a fair trade? You may be offering a $5 open edition (your cost) which you retail at $40.00 and want a discount of $40.00 in return that actually is $12.00 our cost? Then to boot, the print stays on the wall for a year before it sells..where is the shared profit there?

I kind of got a silly smirk on my face when you said "$5 your cost". Not to get into a huge philosophical debate, but all collections of $5 (materials cost) of paper and ink are not created equal. The particular arrangement of the ink on the paper makes a huge difference in the worth, and whether that arrangement comes from pure human artistry or as an expression of machines there is still a cost associated with putting that arrangement of ink on the paper. For me, the costs involved include photographic equipment, computer equipment and software, possibly travel expenses if there is scenic/nature photography involved before we get to the $5 of paper and ink. For a painter, perhaps it takes 100 hours to put together an original artwork. What I'm getting at is "my cost" is more than the materials cost of the paper and ink, just like your cost is more than the materials cost of the various framing supplies.

And to be honest, I hadn't thought about what sort of discount I'd expect on a quid pro quo basis. Frankly I was figuring I'd just throw it in as a sweetener, without any specific economic impact in mind. You know, to encourage you to do things like "be nice and split the difference".
 
Doctah,

Just to be clear, that was only an example. I have no clue about what your product (open editions) are like or what your costs are or should be.

I know all about different costs involved in producing art and they all vary on what process and materials that you use.

My example really wouldn't pertain to you since you are not mass producing your open editions, once again it was only an example.

But just to be clear, there are many open edition prints out there that retail for $40 range that the cost to the wholesaler would be around $5 or less. Once again it depends on what the guaranteed volume is.
 
The nebulous promise of a future unspecified discount doesn't encourage me to pay now and hope for a discount later.
Bingo! Every day framers are asked by artists, photographers and decorators for a discount based on a nebulous promise of future business. Guess why framers aren't keen to offer a discount now and hope for future business later.
 
Just a story that is related to this topic. I am sure that we have all had something similar happen, but I always find it interesting to read about experiences others have had:
We had an agreement with a local photographer. The majority of her work we double matted and put into clear bags for sale in local stores and some of it was framed for sale and for examples. We stocked all of the materials for her, she would come in and drop off a bunch of photo's and she naturally would want a pretty quick turn around. We were ok with all of that, she was dedicated to us....then .....she disappeared. We still have some of the bags, and finally got rid of the matboard.
Another artist came in and wanted a quote on quantity. He had priced it out somewhere else and they had a good price but he preferred our quality. When we would not meet the price he had in mind he was insulted and could not believe that we would turn away his business when in reality we did not turn his business away, he would not accept our price.
 
. . .before we get to the $5 of paper and ink. For a painter, perhaps it takes 100 hours to put together an original artwork. What I'm getting at is "my cost" is more than the materials cost of the paper and ink, just like your cost is more than the materials cost of the various framing supplies.
But it is OK for you to ignore the years and money spent on my education, materials, equipment, rent, insurance, utilities, loss of product brought in on "spec" only to sit on the wall because none of my customers would hang that kind of art in their garage.

Honest Question: How many sheets of paper must you buy to get a "wholesale" price?

How do you buy your paints and canvas at "wholesale"?

Did you get a "Wholesale" price on your house or garrett rent?

You've been "buying" electricity for years; will the utility give you a "wholesale" price?

I'm not picking on you per se, it's just an "artist" thing along with certain other groups that "insist" on "getting a deal".

Sometimes you just have to jack up the price to give them that discount... ala Michael's.

Then there is the <strike>jerk</strike>customer that will chew on you untill you give them the discount they think they deserve.. even if it takes up an hour of my time...$60.

You SAY that you won't take up my counter time..
does that mean you will slide the images through the mail slot, drop them at my house during dinner time, or FedEx them?

Until you are in business in a retail setting, you will never understand where we that are, are coming from when we say: "at a certain point, you aren't worth it".
 
Originally posted by TheDoctah:
Look, I perfectly understand your "Why should I give my profit away to another businessman?" I feel precisely the same way, which is the reason I'm not about to give full retail profit to <u>any</u> supplier. If someone wants to <u>share</u> the profit, I'm in. If they want it all for themselves? No sale.
This has been an interseting discussion, I've never heard it from an artists point of view. But the above quote is exactly what is wrong with your thinking Doctah. You seem somewhat like you are entitled to not pay retail and we don't get it. I as a framer would not be your supplier. I would be your retail framer. I buy from my supplier and sell to you. You want to eliminate the middle man, which would be the framer. Your logic makes no sense. You need to go to the supplier and purchase just as we all do if you want that wholesale price. Lots of artists frame their own pieces.

I do understand your frustration at having to pay the price for framing but I always tell artists who are just starting out selling their art that a good frame job enhances their art and shows the full potential of the art. I tell them to do a few killer examples of their art with framing and that should help to sell the matted and sleeved prints. So, if you don't sell the framed ones they act as examples that hopefully help push the unframed sales. Make sense?

I also tell artists to not expect to mark up the framing if they sell their art framed. If they can get what they paid for the framing and what they expect to get for their art that is good enough. I had a converted artist tell me once that since he started custom framing his pieces he was actually starting to charge more per sq inch for his canvases. As an example, his canvases on their own were selling for $300. He spent $200 on framing and was now selling the pieces for $600. It is all about perception, the frames gave him a more upper end look and it paid off.

Most artist business relationships I have had over the years have never panned out like they were intended to. I'll work with price on the volume exactly alike pieces too but most artists are always selling pie in the sky future volume to me and I would be a chump to fall for it.
 
You seem somewhat like you are entitled to not pay retail and we don't get it. I as a framer would not be your supplier. I would be your retail framer. I buy from my supplier and sell to you. You want to eliminate the middle man, which would be the framer. Your logic makes no sense. You need to go to the supplier and purchase just as we all do if you want that wholesale price. Lots of artists frame their own pieces.

I wouldn't say that I feel I'm entitled to anything more than the opportunity to seek business relationships, which, afterall, are nothing more than willing sellers and willing buyers. If the only option for you and I to do business is for me to be your retail customer, then we don't do business. From this side, you are the one that seems "entitled" to full retail profit on every sale. And in fact, you <u>are</u> entitled to full retail profit on every sale, if that's your business model. I have no quarrel with that. Sure, it impacts your volume, but not everyone wants to be busily cranking out relatively boring frames. It's perfectly understandable and I have no issue with it. Maybe very few people want to do so; no big deal. I'll keep looking. Eventually someone is going to be looking for easy work and willing to accept a lower margin, and if their quality and attention to detail makes the cut, we can do business. It doesn't hurt my feelings that people aren't clamoring to do business with an unknown with no track record. I don't blame anyone for being skeptical.

I'm not looking to "eliminate the middle-man"; if I were I'd just buy the materials and do it all myself (which is what I've been doing to this point.) I'm actually looking to add a middle-man; just a reasonably priced one.

A note about the wholesale price. The prices I've been getting for materials, while good, are higher than the "wholesale price" that you all pay. What I'm trying to say is that my current $60 cost is more than the wholesale materials cost by a substantial margin; it's the cost of materials for anyone willing to look around a bit. I'm not expecting to get artwork framed for the wholesale materials price. I'm not expecting it to cost you money to do business with me. I am expecting a willingness to negotiate on the per piece price if you want my business. If you don't, that's fine. We don't <u>have</u> to do business. If I can find someone to do my framing for me at a price I find acceptable, that's a boon for me. If not, I can continue down the path I'm already on. Hopefully at some point I'll generate enough volume to warrant revisiting the issue.
 
Doctah,

You're missing some key points here.

The term 'full retail profit' is strictly fiction. You have no idea what that is for any business if it indeed exists. The notion of 'profit' is very fluid for any business, how do you have any sense of what it is for any one business? How is it any of your concern?

You could be paying $10.00 per piece at Frame Shop A (where they are spending $2.00 dollars per piece on your supplies) or pay $12.00 per piece at Frame Shop B (where they spend $5.00 per piece on your materials.) Would you take your business to Frame Shop B (even though it is more expensive) because they are making less of a 'profit' on your work?

I would strongly recommend that you take a few business and accounting classes, with emphasis on retail, before you start this discussion again. A lot of excellent businesspeople have been generous with their time and have been very forthright with their information on how they price and you still have a skewed notion of it.

Many of us have been extremely clear on what constitutes 'wholesale' framing. I'll say it again: It's volume. One more time for emphasis: It's volume. More pieces, lower price per. It's a breathtakingly simple 'relationship.' You tell me what you got, I'll tell you what it will cost you. You don't get to know how much I 'make' on each piece or otherwise unless you're the IRS.

edie the readkathyspostagain goddess
 
I'm actually looking to add a middle-man; just a reasonably priced one.
My last post on this one as we're in dead horse flogging territory now.

You have absolutely no way of judging what "reasonable" is. What you're asking for is cheaper than what you've been quoted. You've discovered that the real cost of outsourcing the framing is higher than you anticipated. Live with it and quit whining about it.
 
This is bad...he is not seeing it any other way than his own. Any thing you say to justify your position he flips for his arguement.

You can fight this all you wish. In the end you will not deal with a framer, you will do the work yourself, and it won't be cheap due to errors. Sorry this has been seen by every framer in the business for more than a couple of years.

A rock is a rock it takes thousands of years to make it anything else.
Patrick Leeland

fire to a deadthread
 
Want a middle man that is reasonable?

High a framer to come to your house and use your equipment and your materials..

That way you get it "Professionally framed" and control the cost.....

Sorry, I just don'tknow where you are going to find an employee that will work for $3/hr and put up with your attitude. Good luck framing.
 
I'M SHOCKED!

This is really quite amazing to me. I have been hearing a statistic that there wil1 be nearly 1/3rd fewer custom frame shops in the US in the next five years. At first I didn't beleive it. After reading this, I will be surprised if there are not more than that 1/3rd gone.

If we want to survive, people we need to be flexible. I can do this type of work and make enough money to not just stay in business, but actually grow my business. I would guess may of you could too. This is the type of business that the BBs don't seem to want. So I'll take it. In fact, I rely on it. It pays my expenses, gets me better buying power and keeps my shop busy during slow times. The retail stuff is the gravy on top. I am in a retail location, pay retail cost like the rest of you, but I'll tell you, this stuff goes a long way toward offsetting those expenses.

Doctah,
Call me and I am sure we can work something out. I am only one state south of you, and allready ship WHOLESALE FRAMING all over the country for my customers.

Good Luck to us all.
 
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