No gloves? 60 Minutes feature on the Vatican library antique collections

Create a Post
Kirstie

Kirstie

PFG, Picture Framing God
Joined
Jan 16, 2007
Posts
8,395
Loc
Berkeley, CA
Did anyone else see this tonight? I am watching thier curator turn the pages of a book from 1492 with his bare hands. There were several shots of them touching antique parchment documents with absolutely no protection. Am I missing something? Are they that ignorant?

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7392866n&tag=re1.galleries

I see that my comment on this topic is not the first on the 60 minutes website.
 
Maybe they have some special way of washing their hands before touching this stuff? And we are instructed to always wear gloves because they know we are often grubby.....
 
Kirstie said:
Did anyone else see this tonight? I am watching thier curator turn the pages of a book from 1492 with his bare hands. There were several shots of them touching antique parchment documents with absolutely no protection. Am I missing something? Are they that ignorant?

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7392866n&tag=re1.galleries

I see that my comment on this topic is not the first on the 60 minutes website.
Click to expand...

I agree, but I think these were all copies and the originals are stored appropriately somewhere out of reach.
 
mbboston said:
I agree, but I think these were all copies and the originals are stored appropriately somewhere out of reach.
Click to expand...

In one shot they mentioned a copy, but in others the audience was led to beleive they were originals. Certainly the feature on the restoration of some of them showed conservators handling them with bare hands and in one segment the restorer handled a document quite roughly.
 
Kirstie said:
In one shot they mentioned a copy, but in others the audience was led to beleive they were originals. Certainly the feature on the restoration of some of them showed conservators handling them with bare hands and in one segment the restorer handled a document quite roughly.
Click to expand...

I have noticed that rough handling. I will send a link to our paper restorer and see what she thinks. Vatican is so wealthy, they can afford the best of the best. It's hard to believe they would expose these documents to camera lights and environment.
 
In some cases conservators feel that regular cleaned washed hands are better than wearing gloves. I know that some of my customers have this subject under very active consideration. Gloves can possibly cause damage by snagging on some types of archived documents. There is a very wide debate on this subject among conservators and archivtors.
 
Personally, I do not like gloves. I can feel when my hands need washing but cannot tell when/if gloves have picked up foreign substances.

My Mother taught me to always wash my hands and make sure they are thoroughly dried before eating or handling food and I apply the same rules to artwork.
 
Gloves

Turning book pages is usually a delicate task, which can be better done with well-washed fingers than with gloved fingers. Well-washed means washed with detergent, to get the oils off and without the addition of lotions or the like. This can be harsh to the hands, but it is critical to ensure that biological oils are not present on the fingers. If the handling goes on for some time, a piece of tissue can be used to dry clean the fingers.



Hugh
 
I was watching a show a few years ago where they were restoring a huge painting. They had it laid out on the floor and were walking on it to get to an area to work on. Quite shocking.
 
This 60 Minute segment got hashed over in the art word as well as the historical
societies a few years ago when it first aired.

The story is that the church made "faithful" (naturally) reproductions of the
originals so that their (no one else allowed) historians could have "easy access"
(did you see what it took to get in there?) to the documents.

As my past professor and friend said, "if it's a "copy", who is to say it wasn't
altered to be "faithful" to the controller's faith.

My take away question is: "if you have made a faithful copy, and can
reproduce it many times . . . why not publish it and make it available to the
world to study?"

I really don't understand how the Dead Sea Scrolls became the property of
the Vatican. I would think that they would serve the world a lot better if they
were located at some central secure sectarian university where they could be
studied by the world.
 
Baer Charlton said:
This 60 Minute segment got hashed over in the art word as well as the historical
societies a few years ago when it first aired.

The story is that the church made "faithful" (naturally) reproductions of the
originals so that their (no one else allowed) historians could have "easy access"
(did you see what it took to get in there?) to the documents.

As my past professor and friend said, "if it's a "copy", who is to say it wasn't
altered to be "faithful" to the controller's faith.

My take away question is: "if you have made a faithful copy, and can
reproduce it many times . . . why not publish it and make it available to the
world to study?"

I really don't understand how the Dead Sea Scrolls became the property of
the Vatican. I would think that they would serve the world a lot better if they
were located at some central secure sectarian university where they could be
studied by the world.
Click to expand...


Bear when did the Dead Sea Scrolls become the property of the Vatican.

I had a conversation with a conservator from Israel earlier this year my understanding from the conservation was that the scrolls were at that stage very much located in Israel, under the control of the Israel government, when did they move to ownership of the the Vatican !
 
Sorry... was making an analogy and the brain fart didn't get corrected..

It was about the scriptures, and why couldn't they be made available like the
Israelis are doing with the Dead Sea Scrolls, for everyone to have access.

Wow... don't try to write four things at once...

Now I have to go fix a publicity blurb.... I may have a dragon out there delivering
religious tracts..... oh bother..:help:
 
I have seen appraisers on Antiques Roadshow handling delicate objects, books, etc. somewhat roughly as well. I sometimes cringe when I see this.
:cool: Rick
 
This PA facility most likely has strict rules for all employees and visitors coming in: special de-dusting chamber at the entrance and procedures for hand washing.

I see our restorers working with and more often without gloves. Sometimes they have gloves and face masks for their own protection. Some jobs could be quite nasty. We recently had to remove mural from the wall. It was removed with a chunk of horsehair plaster behind it. Before bringing it to our studio, we had to create a special sealed area with its own ventilation in order to protect ourselves and other artwork from dirt and dust.

http://oliverbrothersonline.com/wp-content/uploads/Highnam-scan-001.jpg
 
A couple of years ago while in Las Vegas for WCAF my wife and I went to the Liberace Museum (which has since closed). They let Terry play his mirror-covered Baldwin piano, after she signed a form stating that she is a trained player, and washed her hands for a minimum of two minutes.
:cool: Rick
 
preservator said:
Turning book pages is usually a delicate task, which can be better done with well-washed fingers than with gloved fingers. Well-washed means washed with detergent, to get the oils off and without the addition of lotions or the like. This can be harsh to the hands, but it is critical to ensure that biological oils are not present on the fingers. If the handling goes on for some time, a piece of tissue can be used to dry clean the fingers.
Hugh
Click to expand...

If this was the case, wouldn't it have been nice for CBS to include a few seconds of education in thier segment? That would have been valuable. But of course not. Instead, they teach an unsuspecting public that it is just fine to handle precious art with bare hands.
 
The question could also be asked, where did the idea come from that always wearing gloves is the correct way to handle artifacts !!!

In general conservators and archivists will approach project they deal with as a one off, they will not try and have a one solution fits all suitations.
 
BTW just in case anyone thinks I'm pushing any sort of agenda one of the products I sell to my customers are conservation gloves, however I would prefer that my customers buy my products understanding the subject as fully as possible. I would prefer to not sell something in the interest of the safety of an artifact or historical document.

http://www.ote.ie/cotton-gloves
 
cotton gloves

Cotton and surgical gloves are very useful when metals, leathers, and some early plastics are being handled (among other things) but they may make one a bit clumsy for some paper handling tasks and it is essential that the gloved hand is monitored over time, since we can perspire through cotton. If delicate items are to be handled for a prolonged period, a surgical glove, inside a cotton glove is the best choice.


Hugh
 
actually i find it easier generally without gloves

and there are misconseptions about cotton glove protecting, they can scratch and leave marks, as much as bare hands can

i do find them useful when trimming loads of prints for example, it generally means i can put the palm of my hand down in the centre of a print, with no real pressure for triming.
 
There are general guidelines. Photographs and metals that can be etched by fingerprints are almost always best handled with gloves. Textiles, paper, glazed ceramics and glass (slippery but easily cleansed) are usually best handled with regularly washed hands. There will be exceptions to everything.

The good news for framers and mount makers is that mounts and supports that eliminate the need for direct touch are new best practice. UBC Anthropology Museum recently went through a huge move and revamp wherein all or most of their collection can be closely examined without touching, by well designed mounts.

But they are also exploring the exciting dynamic between the need for preservation and the need for cultural use. They work with the communities whose artifacts they house so that items can be used for the cultural/ceramonial use for which they were created. This is an new and pleasant change from museums being a repository for "dead" items:

"“When You Don’t Cry Over Spilt Milk: Collections Access at the UBC Museum of Anthropology During the Renewal Project” was presented by Shabnam Honorbakhsh and co- authored by Heidi Swierenga and Maurau Toutloff. The University of British Columbia’s Museum of Anthropology in Vancouver has some 38,000 objects, most of which were placed on visible storage in the 1970’s with the intent of 100% visual access. In the spring of 2004, there was a renewal project, and the museum did considerable behind-the-scenes work as well as continued to consider collection access as an ever-evolving philosophy. The hands-on work included survey, barcode assignment, digitization, testing for pesticides, mount making, packing, moving and finally installation. It sounded like consultation with Native researchers was suggesting that 4 views was the average number of images needed to really see an artifact. The collection can be searched online at MOACAT Also check out how their collections section on their website starts off with some cool downloadable reference documents. I’m definitely right-clicking on some of those! There is also an exciting joint collaborative project to facilitate collaborative study of Northwest Coast artifacts called the Reciprocal Research Network. Chilkat weaver William White (Tsimshian) was quoted: “One of the things that is very important to me is accessibility for my people to come into the museum and be treated with respect and honor.” There was also an example of a bronze statue of Vishnu in the collection who was resanctified for worship by the Vancouver Hindu community. The video of the ritual renewal involved water, honey, oil, milk, fruit and other substances being applied to the statue. Afterwards, it was cleaned, dried, and treated in a desiccation chamber. Marian Kaminitz of the National Museum of the American Indian mentioned after the talk that museums have a societal opportunity to enhance advancement of indigenous societies from a colonialist time to a regeneration time. It seemed to me like there was a more intense focus on the human, social, and interpersonal aspects of our profession and responsibilities at this meeting."
 
We went to the art museum today, and one of the exhibits was called 6,000 Years. It features objects, artifacts, paintings etc. from the museum's collection which have been in storage recently. The display itself is interesting. The paintings are hung "salon style" in grids covering the walls, and many of the artifacts are shown in their storage settings. It was interesting to see the various methods of support devised for these. Many were made from white foam carved into appropriate shapes and lined with soft material where they touched the object. Smaller objects were in tray-boxes that had foam inserts at the bottoms with custom-carved shapes to surround the objects. Pots rested in what appeared to be coiled elongated sandbags. For things like silver services and other decorative items there were even specialized storage cabinets with latched glass doors containing adjustable metal shelves inside. These shelves appeared to be lined with a thin layer of soft foam (similar to what chops come wrapped in), then a layer of black fabric, topped with a layer of acid free tissue upon which the items sat. It was fascinating to see the various ingenious methods of stabilizing stored items which are employed behind the scenes.
:cool: Rick

...I guess the items themselves were pretty cool too. :icon11:
 
Question for Hugh

preservator said:
Cotton and surgical gloves are very useful when metals, leathers, and some early plastics are being handled (among other things) but they may make one a bit clumsy for some paper handling tasks and it is essential that the gloved hand is monitored over time, since we can perspire through cotton. If delicate items are to be handled for a prolonged period, a surgical glove, inside a cotton glove is the best choice.


Hugh
Click to expand...

Hugh,

I am late to the responses on this thread, but for delicate items, would you mind telling us why you would not let the surgical glove touch the paper, but rather suggest wearing the surgical glove inside the white glove?
 
Create a Post
Back
Top