newbie questions--measuring to cut moulding

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coppertop

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middle of nowhere, SD
i'm back again. ok, got a mitre saw, (dewalt, as per suggestions on this site), got the vise clamps, and now have several sticks of various moulding even. (this is huge for me, wohoo!)

so, one person tells me I HAVE to have a mitre guide on my saw, another says nah, you can just use a ruler/45* 'square'. i see these mitre guides and they do look pretty darned handy but ouch on the $$$! i see one that is kinda short for $79 bucks. (up to 3 foot). on that one, maybe you flip the moulding end for end to cut the second cut? not sure on that.

and what saw blade? 80? 100? 120?

and, some again say a sander is a must, some don't have one.

help me!
i am about broke buying what i did and cannot spend hundreds more, i'm small peanuts here, not a big shop. i would really appreciate advice on if i must have these things or not. getting moulding to my place is VERY difficult, so ruining a bunch of moulding is very scary. yes, i know in learning i will ruin some, but trying hard to keep that to a minimum!

so if you would, oh please' you kind souls with framing knowledge, lend a helping hand to a newbie?
 
Any framers near you? It's just that most would be only too pleased to sell or even give you a pile of offcuts which you can practice on. That's what I did when I first started. Still got some of the little frames I made from them.

I'm a bit confused about your saw. Is it what I would call a table saw or what I would call a chop saw? It's just that you shouldn't need any extra guides/jigs/gizmos with a chop saw.
 
coppertop said:
so, one person tells me I HAVE to have a mitre guide on my saw, another says nah, you can just use a ruler/45* 'square'. i see these mitre guides and they do look pretty darned handy but ouch on the $$$! i see one that is kinda short for $79 bucks. (up to 3 foot). on that one, maybe you flip the moulding end for end to cut the second cut? not sure on that.
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I believe you are talking about mitering both ends of your moulding and cutting to length, correct? So a measured miter gauge on at least one side of your saw really makes your life so much easier. Let's say you want 1 leg of mouding to 16" + standard 1/8" allowance = 16 1/8".

Without a measured miter gauge and stop, you would have to first miter one end and then laying a measuring rule along the rabette place a mark at 16 1/8" and then somehow try to guesstimate lining that up with the saw blade. If successful you have to be able to repeat that exactly for the other matching leg.

With a measured scale - cut first leg - slide down and place at the 16 1/8" mark - lock stop - cut second piece. The 36" one you reference is short but would no doubt cover most situations and there is a work around for larger frames.
 
Are you asking if you need a miter scale to add to your miter saw, so that you get the proper measurements? You don't NEED one, but it will make things simpler. In fact, I do not currently have a miter scale on my saw, but I extended the fences and added a simple adhesive backed measuring tape, and clamp a block of wood that is cut 45 degrees on one end as a measuring stop. When you need to find out the length of the moulding you need to cut, you would simply turn the moulding over and measure its width (do not include the rabbet/lip area). Multiply this number by 2 and add 1/8" for clearance, and add this number to each dimension of the piece you are framing. For example, if you are cutting a 2" wide moulding and are framing an 8" x 10" canvas, you would add 4-1/8" to each side, so your frame's outer dimensions would end up being 12-1/8" x 14-1/8". I cut the 45 degree miters on the left side of each rail first, then set the stop to the correct outer measurement on the left fence and make my cuts for the right side of each rail. This is basic stuff, but if this is the info you were seeking, you gotta find out somehow, right?
 
coppertop said:
so, one person tells me I HAVE to have a mitre guide on my saw, another says nah, you can just use a ruler/45* 'square'. i see these mitre guides and they do look pretty darned handy but ouch on the $$$! i see one that is kinda short for $79 bucks. (up to 3 foot). on that one, maybe you flip the moulding end for end to cut the second cut? not sure on that.
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You must be looking at this: http://www.framing4yourself.com/shop/products/4-17/376/

It will certainly help, and is probably the least you are going to spend unless you go the homemade route. The better system out there is Clearmount.

So to answer your question, you would make your first cut on the left side of the moulding, slide it down to the stop on the scale, and then make your second cut on the ride side of the moulding. Do the 2 longer lengths first, that way if you goof up, you can possibly cut them down and use them as the shorter lengths!
 
Like others here, I'm not exactly sure what you're looking for when you say mitre guide.
If you're looking for something to calibrate your saw, a 12" speed square will get you close. You can use it to check your saw for plumb as well as on the 45. Sometimes the preset stops in some chopsaws are slightly loose causing gaps in your joints. By checking with the speed square you can eliminate a lot of issues before you make your first cut.
The other tip that I would offer is for measuring your rails without a mitre scale or fence system. (You can certainly get away without one, but they sure do make life easier. I use a Phaedra fence, and the integrated stop makes multiple identical cuts a simple task rather than a time consuming pain.) What I did before I had my fence system set up was to mark the length of the rail I needed on the inside of the rabbet, and simply place that line on the edge of the clearance slot on the deck of my saw. This gave me a consistent 1/8" extra, and eliminated the guesswork of lining up the stick without a reference point.
As for whether or not to use a sander, that depends on what your joints look like. If your saw is set up and adjusted correctly, and you're using an 80 tooth high quality blade, you can often get away without needing a sander. I've put together the majority of my frames without a sander, but I will say that some of the metallic finish frames definitely benefit from some touch up sanding to eliminate any chipping. I know Logan makes an inexpensive sander, but I've never used one. I can tell you, though, that you can't substitute an electric disk sander for a manual framing sander. Don't ask how I know that...
 
Just as an FYI-I actually purchased the product in the link that libertycustomframes provided and never used it. When I started framing I did just fine measuring my moulding and using the chop saw without any extra guides. Now I have a foot chopper, so I don't even use my chop saw for cutting moulding. The sander comes in handy and when I got my chop saw I also purchased a few blades, but the best blade was from W.D Quinn Saw Co.
 
yes, that link is the thing i was asking about. i have a dewalt compound mitre saw, brand new, ready to use. and a pile of new moulding. and fear. lots of fear! getting that moulding was a big step. i know i'll mess some up but trying to keep that down, along with my costs. so just asking if that guide is worth the money.

i have a few hunks of moulding to practice on, and know one place that i could get more, but its 3 hours away.

i see a tool called a mitre trimmer, http://www.grizzly.com/products/Miter-Trimmer/G1690. i guess i'd best just do some cutting and see how accurate the saw and my skills can do. i just want to make really nice joints, and trying to set myself up for doing that.

and yes, the simple, step by step basics are what i'm asking for!! anyone want a nice vacation in subzero south dakota? hehe! other than here and youtube, i'm kinda flying by the seat of my pants, and solo. i am hoping for mercy and simple directions here.
 
You have to get the inside measurements pretty exact and just s importantly the two legs have to be the same length or yiur frames will not be square.

End stops will help greatly. I saw a workshop where the guy was making doghouses. His chop saw had wood blocks he could clamp to a two by four fence. Making a great miter cut will do you no good if you cant reproduce it :) Be sure when measuring to take the angle into account. The clear mount measuring fence does that for you but it can be done by hand.

A distributor might sell you a bunch of off cuts and short end cuts to practice on. I have a lot I would ship to you! Beware what you ask for as once you get started you will have tons of shorts and not know what to do with them....
 
Not only is accuracy important, but also repeatability. Cut angles must be precisely at 45-degree; opposite sides of a framer must be exactly identical in length.
A measuring and clamping system with proper setup and calibration is one of the many things that helps lead to professional quality.

APFA--Vegas-12-2013Web.jpg
 
i would also like to know what saw blade i need for making nice cuts. i have a 10in mitre saw, would i need an 80tooth blade, or more?

i could get that cheaper guide if its worth it, and that trimmer, if its worth it too. yes? or practice just cutting first and see how i do?

I very much appreciate your time here, i know my questions are extremely newbie-basic and i'm sure you all have plenty to do with your time.

thank you.
-chris
 
Quinn Saw is a sponsor here and makes great blades. 80 tooth will do the job with no problems but when you call Quinn Bill or Joe can help make the decision based on what you are cutting. Freud Diablo blades can be picked up at a local store but will need to be sharpened more often and need to be trashed and replaced more often as well.

Quinn can explain why you should use the blade they recommend and how many sharpenings to expect in the life span of the blade. You will want to have back up blades for the times a tooth gets bent or just during the turn time to sharpen. Quinn does an excellent job at sharpening with very fast returns. They have a couple of robotic sharpening booths which run 24 hours a day and always put the proper angle on each tooth.
 
coppertop said:
i would also like to know what saw blade i need for making nice cuts. i have a 10in mitre saw, would i need an 80tooth blade, or more?

i could get that cheaper guide if its worth it, and that trimmer, if its worth it too. yes? or practice just cutting first and see how i do?

I very much appreciate your time here, i know my questions are extremely newbie-basic and i'm sure you all have plenty to do with your time.

thank you.
-chris
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I agree with Jeff. In fact I just got two new blades today from Quinn. I have both 80 and 100 tpi blades from Quinn. He recommended the 80 to me and I don't notice any difference in cuts between the two.

One caveat. If you don't buy from Quinn, don't consider thin kerf blades. Stay away from thin-kerf blades. Most blades sold in the home centers are thin kerf and will deflect easily when used to cut miters.
 
Here is a basic hint that no one has mentioned.

Cut the long sides first. That way, if you goof one up, you can use the boobooed one to cut a short side.
 
EllenAtHowards said:
Here is a basic hint that no one has mentioned.

Cut the long sides first. That way, if you goof one up, you can use the boobooed one to cut a short side.
Click to expand...

stuff like this is gold to me right now, thank you!!

there was a whole long thread of stuff like this but i lost it--anyone know where it is??

any others have another tidbit to share? i want to print them out, along with that other thread if i find it. thank you
 
not happy--was in a bigger town so just grabbed a dewalt blade for now, and have been messing with the stupid saw for 2 days. hubby has adjusted it as good as I think is possible, its pretty close but not perfect. i believe this nice new moulding is slightly twisted, which ain't helping either. so i don't know if the saw isn't working, the moulding is messing us up or the blade is too thin.

i must admit, right now i wish i'd never started this!

so am i nuts thinking this saw can make perfect cuts? seems if one side is perfect, the other goes off, so right now we're at the middle-of-the road between the two. i *really* don't want to invest any more into this if its not going to work, but i also know if you dont' have the right tools, it makes it pretty hard. and yes, the rails are all as perfectly the same size as possible.

i hate to be such a pain, with all my newbie problems, but please, if anyone has something to offer, please do. i'm feeling pretty bummed.
-chris
 
I don't mean to hijack this thread, but Bill, what would you recommend for a 12" Dewalt 715 chop saw? I plan on upgrading to one of your blades when we have our new shop up and running.
 
libertycustomframes said:
I don't mean to hijack this thread, but Bill, what would you recommend for a 12" Dewalt 715 chop saw? I plan on upgrading to one of your blades when we have our new shop up and running.
Click to expand...

I would just use one of our basic 12" x 80 tooth blades. part #12DW80 I need to know the arbor hole size either 5/8 or 1"

about $100
 
Not to be a Grinch, and respect all the sage advice these folks are offering you in your endeavors here, but a chop/miter saw with no clamping/measuring system device really sounds like a chopping method that is not going to be very beginner-friendly. As some have said, your two sets of legs need to be EXACTLY the same length for each set, with exact 45-degree angles, because if they are not, your frame will not join square and the miters won't fit tightly together. Wood mouldings invariably will have some warping or twisting that make this feat even more difficult if you don't have a good fence to pull it straight against and table and push it flat on while cutting, or clamps to do that for you (miter saw users set me straight if I am wrong about that).

I have been in the framing business for 23 years, and have been chopping frames with a simple Morso foot-operated guillotine-type chopper for the last 12 years since I've been running my own shop and began cutting my own frames; took me a couple tries to master it when I first bought the chopper used (the owner demonstrated), and I have never looked back. The Morso comes with a built-in measurement scale and end stop that takes the headache out of measuring and cutting and makes it very simple to cut two legs exactly the same, much as the miter saw add-on measurement systems will do. In terms of cost, maybe I am out of line here, but I bet the cost of a good used Morso chopper (I have seen $500-750 on used framing equipment sites) probably rivals the combined cost of a DeWalt miter saw with quality blades and add-on measuring system. I would be willing to bet it's a little easier to use too. There ARE advantages to the miter saw (ie cutting metal mouldings and quality of cut on some brittle finishes and certain profile shapes will be better) but for a beginner, the Morso would probably be a helluva lot easier to master for wood mouldings and save you a lot of the cost of wasted "learning" moulding. Obviously I have never used a miter saw to chop mouldings, lol (I have a one but have never even tried to use it on moulding) so maybe I don't know what I am talking about, but just wondered if you had even considered a Morso chopper before springing for the miter saw. And yes, I guess it's beside the point since you HAVE a lovely DeWalt now! Good luck, and know that practice makes perfect!
 
triplechip--I am honored at your offer. and I will take you up on it.
its a 10 inch saw. thank you very much.

I am seriously upset at having done such lousy cuts and remember some things I read here in the past, concerning blades. that was something in mind when we went to menards, and picked up the dewalt blade but hubs said its fine. so now its another thing that I wonder if I am making it harder for myself?

and now I *really* get what you all were meaning about how a guide rail would make life easier--boy oh boy do I get why now. and stops. stops would've been great. this cutting stuff is going to be a steep learning curve I'm afraid.

and, how can I tell if its me or if the moulding is slightly twisted? (not if I am twisted personally, which to clarify, yes, yes I am.) anything I can do to make it work still?
-chris the sad wanna be framer

aangles--nope, never considered a chopper as the few i've seen cut moulding use the saw set up. as you can tell, at this point I am not sure of anything now. and following the advice here is my best bet, for certain! I just hope I don't ask too many dumb questions, or ruin all my moulding before I manage to cut a decent frame. *sigh*
 
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Awhh chris, I wish sub-zero SD was a little closer to sub-zero KS and I would tell you to come on in to my shop and I'd show you how the Morso works. I am only biased cause it's all I have ever used, lol, and I am a little leery of having my fingers near a spinning blade anyway, as a natural clutz. :D You WILL master it! One thing you might look into is a source of inexpensive moulding to practice on. I saw a site today (http://www.skylinepictures.com/Used_Framing_Equipment.htm) that had a few people looking to sell some pretty good-sized lots of moulding (you have to go through it page by page, lots of listings); you might be able to find some moulding pretty cheaply that way. I too have tons of scrap...I could ship some to you but it probably wouldn't be lengths enough to make more than small frames.

At any rate, DON'T give up. It will get easier. When you can afford it, it WOULD be beneficial to invest in a decent measuring system and make the job a whole lot easier. As far as identifying warped or twisted moulding, one way is to lay it on a flat surface and press on it to see if it wobbles or bounces against the surface; you can also hold one end of a stick up to your eye level and sight down the length of it; turning from side to side helps while doing this too. Significant warps and twists become obvious that way. It's hard to find a perfectly straight piece of wood, really, but minor bowing or warping can often be worked around, especially if you pull it straight as it's cut; then it should join straight but might require some torque in the vise to do it. But really obviously twisted moulding will wobble or rock when you press it lightly against a flat surface. I am just full of pointers like most of us out here so anything I can help with just ask, haha. :D
 
I bet triplechip's blade will make a difference too... what a generous offer. :)

Just to clarify what I was saying above about warped moulding. If your moulding is warped or bowed a little and an be pushed or pulled straight against the cutting fence and table, it would need to be held that way while cutting, and then there are tricks to getting it to join up straight in the vise as well, provided it was held straight when cuttting, if you are gluing and nailing that is? Not sure about an underpinners' ability to join warped moulding as I use a Senco pinner and vise but sometimes, the wood is just beyond being made straight and you end up with a twisted frame. So if you are buying moulding from a reliable supplier don't hesitate to check it and ask for a replacement if you think it's warranted!
 
Oh, and ya gotta be at least a LITTLE twisted to be a framer, lol...I know *I* am... :nuts:
 
you ain't kidding about the subzero's, bleck. with windchill we are around -35.

I have one place that might be of some help, she is a very kind lady and was helpful once in the past, I can get there in a month and maybe have some luck with some in-life help and some scraps to play with.

yes, that blade offer is amazing and I'm honored to accept it! anything to stack the odds in my favor. wish I could afford the nice guide, but I might just get the cheap one as I think it'd be better than what I have now--nothing.

I will keep trying, I'm not usually one to just quit. I have NO patience, but I think I'd better learn some.

the moulding I was working with would teeter when I had it flat, like a small rocking. not all the rails, just one or two. and when I tried to line up the corners, one side would be too low, and would need twisting upwards, while the other was just the opposite. each corner would actually work nicely, if that rail could/would be able to twist. I did manage to make a 16x20 and a 18x24 that are passable. not great, but I've actually gotten worse thru the catalogs.

I am trying to keep in mind when I decided to work in pastel--I got a set of 45. thought I had tons of pastels. bwahahaha, that's not even a travel set to me now! I have hundreds and often look around for yet more. so why on earth would I think I could cut fine corners in a few swipes??!

and putty--preference? or are you all good enough at this putty becomes obsolete in your world?

thanks so very much for the hand holding!
-chris
 
If you begin to frame with 'cheap' equipment, the learning curve is much steeper, because the equipment is usually inaccurate and you need to not only learn to frame, but you need to learn all the dirty tricks needed to master the equipment.
Teaching yourself to frame is also not easy, especially if you have had no experience with wood cutting equipment. You have set yourself a difficult but not impossible task! A few weeks working in a professional frame shop or attending a frame school course would be the best ways to learn.

The smaller your budget is for learning and for purchasing equipment the longer it will take to get a handle on producing excellent results, but you can do it!

IMO joints should be tight and require very little or no putty. Always strive to achieve excellent workmanship!
 
I admit, am kinda afraid that I'm setting up for trouble by not having better equipment. i see there is a grizzly trimmer http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006SJCEVA/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_2?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DERthat might be possible for my budget, anyone use that thing? or is it a gimmick that would be a waste of money if I'd just learn to use my saw correctly?

and, IS that dewalt saw capable of making perfect cuts anyhow? or am I asking for something impossible?

most things I learn on my own thru online help and my own will. a class would be great but is probably not going to be possible for me. and asking a framer seems odd--ask them to teach me what might be a loss of their business?
 
I have a set up with two chop saws. Good and sharp blades are the most important. I have a system like the Phaedra and my cuts are precise and perfect. I rarely need putty.

Get that set up, don't bother with that thingy you showed in the link.
 
Sounds like your moulding had a pretty good warped/bowed factor. It's possible to wrestle with it but at the cost of time and energy, and not always success. I agree with osgood that you want your miters to join tightly without gaps so that putty isn't necessary...the less the better. But if you are nailing your frames you'll need putty for the nail holes. Umsco (UMS brand) and Amaco brand puttys are good (UMSCO = Amaco under the UMS label I believe) and more or less industry standards I think.

Your anecdote about the pastels is a good attitude to keep; some day you will look back on this learning process and laugh at yourself. The best way to learn is to just do it, regardless of how you go about it. I have similarly taught myself much of what I know just by trying it, experimenting, googling, and Grumbling, outside of the 11-1/2 years as a "pseudo-framer" and framing supervisor at Michaels. We can all give you advice that you are free to take or leave, and you are not taking away from our business out here on the Grumble, by any means...so you have come to the right place! Even as a 23-years framer myself, I still look for answers and advice here and still feel I have a lot to learn! Don't post as often as some, but.... ;)

Yep we saw a balmy -6 in S Central KS this morning, windchill -14 so not quite as cold here lol. Heat wave! Keep at it, and let us know how you are doing!!
 
coppertop said:
I admit, am kinda afraid that I'm setting up for trouble by not having better equipment. i see there is a grizzly trimmer http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006SJCEVA/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_2?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DERthat might be possible for my budget, anyone use that thing? or is it a gimmick that would be a waste of money if I'd just learn to use my saw correctly?

and, IS that dewalt saw capable of making perfect cuts anyhow? or am I asking for something impossible?

most things I learn on my own thru online help and my own will. a class would be great but is probably not going to be possible for me. and asking a framer seems odd--ask them to teach me what might be a loss of their business?
Click to expand...

Don't bother with that one (I have it's twin in my basement :))
My best equipment purchase was a Phaedra fence system; try to find something like it and you won't go wrong. You need production stops to ensure your rails are exactly the same. Over time, you will get a feel for handling moulding with mild twists in it and will be able to see a bad cut before you join. One trick is after you cut the rails, lay them on their backs with the rabbets lined up, the cut should be straight...if you get an angle or worse a curve then your moulding is rocking while you are cutting. You need to make sure the back of the moulding is square with the fence of the saw. Confused yet??? sorry! I use 90 tooth Freud on my DeWalt Mitre Saw.

As for asking another framer to help: if you feel too weird to ask someone close, contact a framer outside of your city and take the time to learn.

You must do the cutting to learn the cutting!!

Good luck
 
oh joy! the nice lady who I thought I might get some practice scraps on invited me for some lessons!! woot whoot! I called her today to ask a question, we got to chatting and she invited me. and I am going as soon as I can! she is using a chop saw and still joins with brads. she's not young, is very kind and tells all. i am so happy at this find. she bought this frame shop from the previous owner after working for him for several years. she's been in business for over 30 years herself. she's only 1.5 hours away!

julie walsh--thanks for the warning, I will not get the trimmer! I looked a bit today but didn't find one of those measuring fences. they must of quit production? I know of another brand but the price isn't in my budget.

but maybe this solution would work?....I don't currently have a table for my chop saw. went looking and again, the $$ is not nice and I don't like the options anyhow. then, I found a plan online...http://ana-white.com/2012/04/plans/miter-saw-cart. now this I can do. I had another friend call today and her hubby is a great wood worker and I am certain I could get some tips and work with him on that. I like that i can roll it out of the way, my space is tighter than my budget. eek. but i simply like that cart better than the metal ones I found online (looks like 2 sawhorses).

anyhow....on this cart, she has 2 'wings'. she suggests t the end of this article that maybe a fence of a 2x2 would be needed, which I think would be good. if I put this...http://www.amazon.com/L-S-Starrett-63168-Sm66w-Adhesive/dp/B00175RTS8/ref=pd_sxp_grid_pt_0_2 on either of those 'wings', would that work for measuring and cutting my rails? with a bit of practice, I would think it would at least be consistant. or would that cheapo fence guide be better?
 
It's not difficult to knock up a measuring system for a saw. Easier if it's installed permanently. You just need a flat surface exactly level with the saw bed with a sort of rail for a stop to slide along - with a scale on it. Just made one and the biggest expense was a good engineer's steel rule. Mine 5ft long. About 25GBP. The rest was oddments of wood I had lying around.

Not what you would call elegant, but it works fine. :thumbsup:

shed13_006.jpg


You just have to take a bit of time getting it all calibrated.
Obviously you have to adapt it to your own setup.....
 
thank you for the visual, helps. elegant is not a concern to me, long as it works well. tomorrow I go get saw/vise lessons. yea!

and making plans to put the saw in my barn, where it can be set up permanently and solid. not warm, but its just for cutting, assembly and storage is still inside my house/studio. I have a 50yo barn, and I have one stall that is not used, so now I have a space for my own little woodshop. finally making progress. and the 2 frames I cobbled actually don't look too bad, so another plus for today.

if anyone else wants to point me to photos of set ups, i'd love to see a few.
-chris
 
just me, again. the cuts the saw makes just are not perfect enough. I am highly thinking a grizzly chopper, but they leave a cut 'smooth as glass'---will that leave enough for the glue to grip?

sometimes I think starting all this was just not a good idea. getting pretty frustrated.
 
What is a grizzly chopper. Smooth cuts are the goal so you can have a miter that is too clean. I haven't read back through this whole thing but if you want to solve you problems follow these steps. Take a photo of you saw set up, whatever you are using for joining, the moulding you are cutting along with a shot of the mitered end and a photo of the joined frame. Post these photos here and all of your questions will be answered.

Perfect frames can be cut with a simple home made miter box and a dirt cheap back saw so if we can see your problems we can solve them.
 
Please don't waste your scarce resources on that Grizzly thing. It does nothing to solve the issue of an accurate and repeatable measuring setup. It is not a tool found in professional framing shops. Besides it looks extremely dangerous.
(Maybe that's why they call it "grisly"). My suggestion would be to buy your moulding chopped by the supplier until you can afford a proper setup to cut your own. You need to start making money before you spend more- or acquire more capital. Chopping your own frames has its own waste factors and inefficiencies, even when you have the tools to do it correctly. Even though buying chops means your materials cost is higher, you will set your prices so you can make a profit, and have money to professionalize your setup as you go along..
:cool: Rick
 
Sorry to hear you are having problems Coppertop.

Have you tried different blades on your saw?

I think the piece of kit you really need is a guillotine.
Probably the best known make is the Morso. Not a cheap item, but used ones are worth looking at. They are tough
as old boots and there are plenty of machines 50 years old or more still working well. I got mine new in 1984.
I don't know the market in the US, but in the UK you can pick up a decent used Morso for around the 500-600GBP mark. A fair chunk of cash granted, but it doesn't take long
to spoil that value of mouldings on machines that aren't up to the job.

MORSOF~en.jpg



Unlike a saw it cuts with a shearing action using very sharp blades. It's true to say that there are mouldings that are not friendly to guillotines.
Ones with undercuts can chip along the back. But with most mouldings you will get consistent good results. Also no dust or noise.
They work by taking multiple bites with a final 'planing' stroke which leaves a very clean miter.

Bear in mind that chop saws are made for general woodwork and vary in build quality. DeWalt ones are among the best, but they aren't specifically
built for the accuracy demanded in picture framing. With a good sharp blade you can get good cuts but not quite as good as a guillotine.
The big twin-blade saws that are intended for cutting mouldings will produce excellent results, but they are big beasts and cost mega$s. :eek:
 
I have to agree with Rick. Buy chops. Get good at joining then add chopping to your repertoire. A sander would be a better investment than anything else. That grisly is just a waste IMO. You get proficient with a saw you will never use the grisly but you can always use a sander.
 
Consider a mite sander. I have a 12" Baton (not made anymore) but I like to say it turns my $500 set up into a $5000 set up. Some say it's cheating and waste of time ( takes an extra minute) and real men only use expensive saws. I say a good strong fit is all that matters.

Buy a pair of gloves with sticky vinyl palms. This will make your grip stronger. I have clamps but rarely use them. I cut fo many years on a saw with a homemade extensions. If you visit the twin cities stop in and you can practice on my set up.

Doug
 
I read this thread with great interest as I’ve just gone through a similar experience. I spent a few weekends working out the details related to precision cuts and also measuring. At least I thought I did until I did a production run. I missed a lot of details during my practice. Having made about 40 frames at this point, with many more to come, I wanted to share my own top 10 list of key details based on improvements needed after my first successful production run.

#1 on my list is a means to measure accurately and quickly. I was using a T square and making a mark on the moulding and then carefully placing the moulding for the cut. After the first cut I used a brick as my “production stop” for subsequent cuts of the same length. That had great points for accuracy but many points off for a lack of speed. The solution I found is made by Kreg and is called their "Precision Track and Stop System." They also make a production stop designed for this system when used with mitered corners, but I don’t expect this is really needed except for those even more OCD than me. The tool is an excellent value at ~ $125, and does about what other systems do for a fraction of the comparative cost. The only gotcha is that you need to make a fence for it. I used some marine grade plywood with a wide backing fastened at the base. The backing lets me clamp the fence to the table.

#2 is good clamping tools for the moulding. In my first go, I had to fabricate clamps to clamp the moulding to the saw fence. My results were good but not good enough to stop some cupping from taking place due to one saw. The nearly ultimate solution was clamps made by the manufacturer for the saw model. In my case it is DeWalt but each saw evidently has its own clamp system. Good C clamps might work as an alternative or might not. I have 2 compound miter saws and one of them (a DW705) shakes worse than a Harley when starting, and that causes the moulding to move with predictably bad results. The ultimate solution will be to get a newer edition of the saw, which is in the planning. Craigslist can be your friend....

#3 In addition to the clamps I also used some moulding of the same type I’m using for frames and put some soft felt over about a 6” long piece of the moulding on its face. That makes a mirror image of the moulding and permits a long section where the clamp on the saw fence can tightly hold the moulding without leaving a mark.

#4 is to never trust the angle reading gauges that come with tools. Instead get 2 good rapid angle finders. One type should be a typical triangle made of aluminum that you can get at the Home Depot or elsewhere for about $7. This works the best for checking that the mitered cuts are perfect and to verify any cups or other deflections. It also works to get the saw blade(s) and sander roughly lined up. The other angle finder is a digital read out rapid angle finder. This will permit dialing in the accuracy of the miter tools to whatever the precision of the measuring tool is, hopefully with less than .05% of 1 degree of inaccuracy. A good digital read out angle finder cost about $40 and a cheap one can cost hundred$ in not quite perfect cuts.

#5 is what I call “The Magic Number.” When you want to cut a moulding for an 8x10 inch work, as example, the moulding you cut needs to be bigger than 8x10 inches. Exactly how much bigger depends on the size of the rabbit and also the overall width of the moulding, plus the amount of wiggle room you want for the work to fit in the rabbit. Spending the time to verify The Magic Number will give you an instant number to plug-in, so that you know that a 10” long rabbit moulding has to be whatever length it actually needs to be. In the case of the moulding I was using, the magic number was 1 14/16” more than the actual size I needed. So to get my 10 inch long piece of moulding, added 1 and a 14/16 th of an inch and it was perfect every time.

#6 Is what I call the genuflect to reality. Learn and acknowledge the flaws in your tools and accommodate them. In my case, I found that due to my bad clamp for the saw that shakes worse than a Harley when starting, there was a little cupping in the moulding. Due to that I started to add 1/16” to the magic number and the cup in the moulding would be sanded off using my perfectly aligned sander. In other cases the genuflect to reality needs to accommodate any of the wide variety of variables one encounters with moulding and/or the tools used. Remember that denial is not a river in Egypt………

#7 is some good miter clamps and fast setting clear drying wood glue. It is horrid to have to wait 30 minutes between gluing and running the v-nail (if you use one) as that time kills any hope of finishing the job before you grow old and your gray hair starts to fall out.

#8 is more than "adequate" lighting. Nothing replaces this and it is the detail that permits precision in all regards. You can get clamp on lights at Target for about $8 each and run 100 watt daylight fluorescent lights that only use 23 watts of power. The lights will cost about $2 each. The difference in results is priceless.

#9 is, of course to use sharp saw blades, keep spares at hand, and cut slowly. When is a blade no longer sharp? When you see any chips in the cut….

#10 is to keep a notepad nearby, take lots of notes, and test your results frequently until you get to the accuracy limit of the tools. After that, verify accuracy when you clamp the pieces together and fix any problems right away. When I make a cut I test it with the rapid angle finder to see if the cut is straight, or not, and also if the cut has any deflection from 45 degrees, or not, and then adjust as needed. This ultimately saves a lot of time. I also tested the amount of time it takes for the glue to setup and that lets me know how long I have to wait between the time I glue something and can move the piece to the underpinner. Writing and then reviewing detailed notes will lead to improved results in the least amount of time.

#11 is to not hesitate to use some materials to practice, but i said i'd only list 10 items so i'm over budget once again...........
 
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coppertop said:
...and, IS that dewalt saw capable of making perfect cuts anyhow? or am I asking for something impossible?
Click to expand...
Your DeWalt 10" miter saw can make absolutely perfect cuts. You just have to learn how to adjust it and use it properly. The miter trimmer or sander would be useful for correcting the miters on chops from your routine suppliers. The miters from my twin DeWalt saws/Phaedra SawHelper setup are better than what the suppliers usually send us.
 
This is my saw setup.

shed13_007.jpg


Why two you may ask? Well having tried a single saw I found that it on the 45º indent it didn't produce 45º miters. No way to do fine adjustments to the stops.
Plus, you have to swing the head around which takes time and would eventually cause wear after long use. My idea was to align the left saw with the measuring guide fence
and swing the whole right saw around in tiny amounts until I got tight miters. Then screw it down very firmly. As far as accuracy goes it works very well.
There was a DeWalt saw I found online which did have fine-tunable indents, but unfortunately not available in the UK.
The cut quality it is better than I thought it would be. I replaced the stock 24t blades with 80t. I should mention that I use it mainly for large plain mouldings, some of which are complicated
shapes with undercut backs. Some cuts reveal small gaps it has to be said. Maybe better blades would cure that and I don't clamp the moulding so there is a possibility of a bit of 'jiggle'.
But as the frames are to be finished after joining this isn't a major problem. The Morso would make better cuts, but with a lot of break-outs to make good on undercut mouldings. As well as that
there are certain mouldings with rock-hard coatings that dull chopper blades very quickly. A saw makes short work of such mouldings with no chipping.
So all-in-all it's a trade off. The saws are super-fast compared to the Morso on large mouldings. The Morso does better cuts with the caveat of chipping on undercuts.
No shavings to empty, just nice triangles. Lots of dust. Next step dust extractor system. :rolleyes:

The entire rig costed at about 500GBP. An entry-level single miter saw made for frames is over 2000GBP. Big stuff with twin blades - 10KGBP+ and wouldn't go though the door.

Q.E.D. :cool:
 
prospero said:
This is my saw setup.

shed13_007.jpg


Why two you may ask? Well having tried a single saw I found that it on the 45º indent it didn't produce 45º miters. No way to do fine adjustments to the stops.
Q.E.D. :cool:
Click to expand...
It may not be the indents that are your problem. Try adjusting the fence using a good machinist square or architect triangle to align blade at a perfect 45 degree angle.
 
blueeyes said:
It may not be the indents that are your problem. Try adjusting the fence using a good machinist square or architect triangle to align blade at a perfect 45 degree angle.
Click to expand...

All good in theory, but it doesn't always work that way. Wood is funny stuff. I prefer to tweak the angles until I get four true corners. And you can't alter the fence on a single saw set up as it will throw the opposing angle off.

The first saw I tried mitering moulding on was waaay off. It was a cheapo machine though, in fact I was given it by a customer who had been trying to make his own frames. :rolleyes: The Makita saws I eventually bought are much better build quality and almost cut true with no angle tweaking. Almost, but not quite. The thing is, being able to adjust the angle is a desirable thing and not possible on most chop saws. So the only way is to have two.
 
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Personally, I really think you're over thinking this. I have been using the same 10'" Dewalt chop saw with a Phaedra measuring system (no longer available) for nearly 30 years. I will put my chops up against anyone's. We cut all kinds of materials, finishes, shapes, sizes. Perfect corners every time. Look around for another measuring system....they're out there. One key to good chops is are great blades. We've spent more on blades than the saw itself. We chop both wood and metal on our saw. Change out the blade for wood or metal.

Here's our saw area......

Chop Saw.jpg
 
I agree with buying a proper measuring system since it is much easier and less expensive than trying to reinvent the wheel.
 
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