Newbie Questions: HH & Encapsulation

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TwoThumbs

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Joined
Sep 6, 2005
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Port Chester, NY & Stamford, CT
Still a "newbie" with questions ....

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As I keep reading threads here I see people who have posted to a board? referred to as "HH" ? What and where is this??


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Had a customer come in today with a very old parchment music sheet with music on both sides (written in Latin no less). She wants it framed to view both sides - either with glass only on both sides; or a simple back to back frame with matting and glass. Saw a lot of great ideas in the archives for this type of encapsulation mounting but with all the ideas no one mentioned how to "hang it on a wall" ... only to display it on an easel or stand-alone on a desk, etc. She wants to hang it on a wall and be able to "turn it around periodically"
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Any ideas???
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When hanging double sided frames, you don't want to be putting screws into something that can become the front.

Here's what I have done in the past. The cord goes OVER the frame so make a feature of it - don't use wire, but possibly use chain. I attach D rings to the side of the frame(s) and use braid with matching tiny tassles to conceal the D rings. Doesn't suit everything, but it sounds like it might suit this.
 
Well... it's obvious that you are a newbie!!! Two thumbs, indeed!! Yeah that's it rub it in!! I suppose you can open bottles and jars and tie your own shoes, too!
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But seriously :rolleyes: what John said.
 
HH is the PPFA online forum. Merrill Grayson MCPF is the Main HH Boss. You need to belong to PPFa (Professional Picture Framers' Assn) to participate. But I am hoping you already belong (it IS our trade assn after all) and so all you need to do is sign up.
 
Rather than do the two-side-viewable frame, I often opt for scanning the reverse and putting it in a sleeve on the reverse .... I've never been too keen on the cutesy-flip-it-over frame thing.
 
An original hand written music manuscript should probably not be scanned or copied. It may be centuries old and have historic value. I would be afraid that exposing it to the intense light of a scanner or copier could diminish it.

However, I have color copied one side of double sided or folded documents, in order to view both sides at once in a double opening mat, and to eliminate any cutting of the documents.
 
For two sided pieces, trying to join two frames is a bother. You might consider a standard frame designed for stained glass. They generally are finished on both sides so you can slip the item in and “cap” the top.

Instead of “D-rings”, Ziabicki Imports offers several styles of decorative hangers. If you can’t hide the hanging hardware, you might as well flaunt it.
 
I use decorative hardware that is designed to hang stained glass panels.

They have a slim profile, and are brass. I have put patina on them to darken them as needed, to make them "disappear".

I mount them on the sides near the top, and like someone said, use dec. chain.
 
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My encapsulation nightmare ....

:confused: Ok, so I thought this was going to be easier than its turning out to be .. :confused:

The original parchment had been rolled for sometime, years, I guess, so I've tried everything to flatten it out, even leaving it in my press for the last ten days. It still had some waves in it after all this, but I thought when I encapsulated it in the Mylar (Melinex-#516 .003) and fit it inbetween the two sets of mats (double-sided front & back) that it would flatten "almost" 100%, and make it a little bit more "rigid"/"sturdy" looking in the opening.

:mad: But "NO" !! It's still wavy in the encapsulation and the encapsulation even looks wavy, it looks like s#%@!!

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Is there a more "sturdy" or thicker encapsulation product that will give the same clarity to solve this ridgidity problem?? Or does anybody have any other suggestions??? (Other than hindsight, of not letting a customer talk you into something you know you shouldn't do? You guys just made it seem so simple looking back in the archives :rolleyes: !!)
 
Originally posted by TwoThumbs:


Ok, so I thought this was going to be easier than its turning out to be .. does anybody have any other suggestions??? (Other than hindsight, of not letting a customer talk you into something you know you shouldn't do?
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Don't be offended by all that sniggering you hear in the background. We're only laughing because we've all fallen prey to this at one time or another.

What gets done next is going to be determined by the value and replace-ability of the piece. One option might be to make color copies of both sides and frame the nice flat pieces of paper in a double opening mat. Another would be to have a professional conservator try to relax the original document.

There is no reason why you should be making this decision. Call the customer. Describe or show her the problem. Let her decide how she wants to deal with it. You can present options but do you really want to be messing with a medieval manuscript page (if that's what this is)?

Good luck with the project and let us know how it turns out.

Kit
 
"Is there a more "sturdy" or thicker encapsulation product that will give the same clarity to solve this ridgidity problem??"
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Actually, yes. (Watch the fur fly)

Use Museum glass on both sides. Then, use mats or spacers to put additional glazing AT LEAST 1/2" away from the surface of the museum glass on both sides. This means the frame package will be at least 2 1/2" thick. The 1/2" air space will act as an insulator (like a double pane window) thus preventing the condensation associated with glazing exposed the the outside air. The Museum glass wil NOT be visible, but will be very rigid and hold the art nicely.

(see Jim, I was listening)

Of course it's a "little" more money.

P.S. If it is a medieval manuscript page I might be includign a conservator in on the mounting discussions with the customer. I'm not sure I'd be "messing" with it either?
 
Here's another example of how the grumble is such a valuable tool.

Cliff, you have just given me a great idea for a set of banknotes - no value - comical things based on a popular UK comedy show, for sale in the shop, stuck in a plan chest for months while I figure out how to do them 'nicely'

I'll post the results when I get round to doing it - they will look as if they are floating in mid-air.

Thanks

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Kit .... Cliff ... and others....

Thanks for the suggestions! I did call the customer and left a message to come in to discuss the "problem" and the alternatives. Waiting on her now.

I also have a call into a conservator on another wonderful "fire" project that we just got in. I will bring this up with her also (including the museum glass "fur"
)

Are these types of projects we're getting some kind of standardized testing that frame shops go through when your relatively new???
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Originally posted by Cliff Wilson:
[QUOTE...Use Museum glass on both sides. Then, use mats or spacers to put additional glazing AT LEAST 1/2" away...
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Exactly, Cliff. The insulating air gap is very important to avoid condensation.

The only other caution I would add is that the old manuscript may have areas of gilded decoration, called engrossing or illumination. If so, the gold or the gesso that makes its foundation could be damaged, or it may be soft enough to stick or deform under pressure of the glass.

The Museum Glass sandwich mount has worked well for several of my projects, but like all framing methods, it has its limitations. It would be completely unacceptable when the surface texture or character of the item may be damaged by contact with the hard glass.

Two Thumbs: "But "NO" !! It's still wavy in the encapsulation and the encapsulation even looks wavy, it looks like s#%@!!"

I wonder if you got the sheets of clear film upside down. All clear film has a curvature, and it is important to get the convex sides pressing against each other. Otherwise, the mount appears to bubble, which, as you so eloquently noted, looks like s#%@!!.

If that is the case, I suggest trying again with the clear film. The manuscript's cockles & wrinkles are part of its character. It is not intended to be flat. Instead of trying to fltten it, respect & celebrate its character. Remember, it is older than you are...
 
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