new framing distributor


Grumbler in Training
Sep 27, 2004
Brooklyn, NY
Can anyone please recommend a wholesale framing distributor that specializes in *top end* natural and stained hardwoods? We have been using Vermont Hardwoods who have an amazing product but unfortunately need some help in the "customer service" department. I am looking for a company that has the same type of quality wood minus the horrible attitude.
Not too fair to bash a vendor on a public forum without identifying else can they defend themselves? Vermont Hardwoods is one of the few vendors who actually participates on the forum. David Waldman is highly respected for his input around here.
Spicy, I have to go with Kathy on this one. I have called them and gotten good customer service treatment. Which is unlike yourself as you have locked you Profile, and secreted you communication proticals. In these times, I would say your attack qualifies as a cowardly "terrorist" slur. Some would say, hit the "Report Post" whistle . . . But I think this serves a better and high purpose as a training for all of those "unseasoned" to learn from as to "what NOT to do".

As for Hardwoods? There are a few left. I'm sure one or two will be able to help you at the Las Vegas or Orlando show.

Sorry about your towers and all, but it doesn't excuse offencive behavior.

Spicywonton - You are a perfect example of why this forum should change its policy and no one should be able to post without accurate indentification who they are and where they are.

How about someone creating a poll on this?

I agree with Alan ... blind posting is kinda bush league ... this is a forum open to the public (why, I don't know...), but it's also a valuable trade tool.

As for Vermont Hardwoods, they are the most precision-oriented distributer I know of ... (yep, Roma's great, too..
. David, Rebecca, et al, are terrific, and I can't envision how "bad customer service" could be an issue.

(Now, if they would only consider selling lengths of less than 20 feet .... ;)
Perhaps spicywanton is afraid of a slander suit.

I do not know why people wish to hide their identity, but some seem to feel better doing it.

What if spicywontons identity was made clear, what difference would that make?

Vermont hardwoods obviously got this persons dander up for who knows what reason, that does not matter either.

The question is, are there other sources for a like product?

This forum is also called The Grumble, that would lead people to think that picture framers are allowed to grumble about things, suppliers, whatever, wouldn't it?

Perhaps we should change the name of this forum to "The Picture Framers Politically Correct, Never Rock The Boat Forum". Wait, I have it, we could just merge with H.H.

Myself, I think it is OK for someone to remain incognito if they so desire. If that will bring more participants onto the forum, I am all for it.

I have no problem with rocking the boat .... my history speaks for itself ... I'd just like to know who's talking.

As a public forum, and without a requirement for personal info, any yahoo can post whatever ... sure, we could rely on the moderator to zap (as a past Wizard on a rather unique site called "Fantasia's Worlds", I know what that's all about... ;) , but isn't that one of the points of contention lately?
Hey wait a minute there John. You and I think alike on most of this. But, "Spicywonton" could have just as easily come on here and asked for other sources of this product without taking a poke at Vermont Hardwoods. I really do believe if you are going to take shots at anybody you better back it up with facts. It is only fair to all parties. Just my opinion though.

I'm not one who is offended by some of the unpleasantness that occurs from time to time. But, I want to know who is casting these type of aspersions, otherwise their comments have no value.
I have to add, if a slur against a supplier is unjustified, we, as grown up picture framers would probably know that, right? Same way if it was justified.

If it is a unjustified slur, we can just consider it as a framer letting off a little steam, that's OK too.

If it is justified, it lets the rest of us with like feelings, know we are not alone. In short, I think Spicywonton's post was valid.

I think we are on the same page JRB. I don't disagree that the comment was valid. I just don't think it is fair to hide behind a funny name and take shots at people. Have the guts to identify yourself and stand behind your comments.
John, Try this one: Spicy is an ex employee of Ivy, who is pissed that they are out of work, but want's to start their own moulding company but first needs to bash out of exsistence their precevied competition...... aw geeeez, I 've been watching to many of Bushes campain ads.....

but you get what I'm saying. If we all know who is doing the bashing, and it really is a framer then bash away. Then I/Dave can see who it is, then maybe he has a chance of rectifiing a wrong, a precieved wrong or just deleating a noxious customer from their base. And if they are a noxious customer who is consistantly working through the industry, alienating everyone they deal with, then that is also good to know (from an industry point of defence).

Not ALL framers are as good and nice a customer as yourself. :D

And I still stand by my original post of a "terrorist tactic". When you and Cornell go at each other, we all know it's just "The kids squabbeling again". Someone out of the blue with a mask on, on a first post . . . . another story.

And I'll bet a dollar against a donut, we will not seem them post again.

I agree, it would be better for all concerned if Spicywonton would provide an identity. I also understand it could be the beginning of a great conspiracy to bring down Vermont Hardwoods.

I also think it could be that a Vermont Hardwoods employee offended a customer. It could also be a retail customer who Vermont Hardwoods refused to sell to, and they are looking for another, less Honorable vendor.

There are probably many reasons why this person did not identify themselves.

The fact remains, we are mostly professional picture framers and some of us are adults. We are not going to pay much attention to an unwarranted slur on one of our suppliers.

On the other hand, if other framers chimed in with Spicywonton, it would serve as a heads up to Vermont Hardwoods that they have a problem with an employee, who is costing them serious money.

No matter what the reason, or who made the post, the post was made by someone who has an ax to grind.

I think David would rather see it posted than have it left to simmer in someones head.

It is obvious that Vermont Hardwoods has built a strong, reputable business and has a loyal following. One slur is not going to sink that boat, but it does let the skipper know that a problem exists.

Could I respectfully request that all my posts from this thread be deleted? I wasn't intending on starting something with my original post. I just simply think it is good protocol to identify yourself before ripping in to someone. If somebody said "Out on a Whim" sucks I would want to know who that person was and then I would in turn want to explain to you all why "Out on a Whim" indeed doesn't suck........

I wasn't looking for grassy knolls and conspiracies or a full on attack. Puhleeze feel free to delete my posts, I would appreciate it. If nothing else the past couple of weeks have taught me to keep my mouth shut, now I only need to act on that.
Chill folks,

If the wonton hot one had posted something like:

Can anyone please recommend a wholesale framing distributor that specializes in *top end* natural and stained hardwoods? We have been using Vermont Hardwoods who have an amazing product but we are looking for other vendors.
Then y'all mighta chimed in with


But with the locale stated as NY NY, Xylo may be the closest.

But then again, we might take the saltiness of the originator as a New Yawker kind of attitude.

Why heck, wouldn't that be sterotyping?

And why heck, isn't stereotyping wrong, or at least pass'e?

But then again, we don't always put our best foot forward first.

Where's that "kinder and gentler" grumble folks were saying they'd like on some other posts?
Don't hold your breath, Kathy.

Sure, it's called The Grumble.

But nearly always when we read one of these anonymous sucker-punches here we discover that the Grumbler has made little or no effort to contact the company and allow them to fix the problem. It's so much easier to come on here and vent.

Personally, I know almost nothing about Vermont Hardwoods except from David's participation here, but I feel pretty positive about them after reading this thread.

JRB, I guess if we're going to support spicywonton's right to vent about Vermont Hardwoods. we'll need to support everyone else's right to vent about spicywonton.

It could get complicated. I'm glad it's not my problem.
For what it's worth...
VH just moved their facilities. There may have been a, uh, lapse in their continuity...I don't know.
Spicytwonton, there are a number of hardwood moulding manufacturers in the US. They are not interchangable, but there are some similarities in product and finish. None of them are perfect. Marc mention some of them...add to the list Picture Woods.
There are also a couple of manufacturers of closed corner hardwood frames in your city...ask around, they shouldn't be too hard to find.
And sometimes the person has made an effort to do something about it through the company, but to no avail...honestly we do not know what is going on here. Sometimes we should not call foul, but tell the person if they wish to speak to a vendor (owner/president) directly give them the name and number.

On the otherhand if the person posts and runs...that is not right. This is all going down in the same day, let us offer the person to clarify their post or be gone.

Just to show we are helpful even though not pleased, a company you may wish to look at is Kellar and Kleine , sorry but I forget their website. They sell wholesale and to the public.
On another note, a search provided useful.

This thread,;f=1;t=006900 has phone numbers for PB & h, and Foster.

This thread,;f=1;t=005498 has phone numbers for xylo, picture woods, and vermont hardwoods (but you knew that one)

But the thread for all the seasoned grumblers to read is this one;f=1;t=004601 It has hardwood, and phone numbers, and a really nice catfight.

And if you are not in the mood to check out those instructive threads, this may help somebody out there:

Azuuelas Woods, Inc.
312 Rosemont NE
Albuquerque, NM 87102
Honduras Mahogany
Philippine mahogany
Birdseye maple
Purple Heart
Length yes
Chop Service Yes
Joined if needed? Yes
Only unfinished, or able to finish? Finishing Services Available
Metal inlays? Yes
Min $ for order? 6 FT
Min ft for custom order? 6 FT
# of profiles offered? 45
# of woods offered? 17
All woods in all profiles?
Corner samples? Yes, call for details
Corner sample?
Other products?
Can you order wood to specific lengths (for yield purposes)? Yes
Volume discount? Yes
Credit card? Yes

Foster Planing Mill
1258 West 58 Th Street
Los Angeles, CA 90037
323 759 9156
Honduras Mahogany
Koa (subject to availability)
Poplar (discontinued)
Purple Heart
Length Yes
Chop Service No
Joined if needed? No
Only unfinished, or able to finish? Only Unfinished
Metal inlays? No
Min $ for order? No
Min ft for custom order? 300
# of profiles offered? 150-200
# of woods offered ? 11
All woods in all profiles? Exotics available only in Contemporary profiles
Corner samples? 2 foot sample lengths, call for details
Catalog? Yes
Other products? custom length keyed corner stretcher bars
Can you order wood to specific lengths (for yield purposes)? Yes, add'l 20%
Volume discount? Yes
Credit card? Yes

Picture Woods, Ltd
5060 Chaparral Ct
Boulder, CO 80301
Soft Maple (custom order)
Poplar (custom order)
Length Yes
Chop Service Yes
Joined if needed? o
Only unfinished, or able to finish? Finishing Services Available
Metal inlays? No
Min $ for order? None
Min ft for custom order? 100 Ft
# of profiles offered? + or - 60
# of woods offered ? 8
All species in all profiles? 95%
Corner samples? Yes, call for details
Catalog? Yes
Other products? Just fine wood
Can you order wood to specific lengths (for yield purposes)?Yes, at chop price
Volume discount? Yes
Credit card? Yes

Vermont Hardwoods
25 Town Farm Road
Chester, VT .5143-9314
Honduras Mahogany
Red Oak
Length yes
Chop Service yes
Joined if needed? No
Only unfinished, or able to finish? Finishing services available
Metal inlays? No
Min $ for order? No
Min ft for custom order? 20
# of profiles offered? + or - 25
# of woods offered ? 7
All woods in all profiles? 80%
Corner samples? Yes, call for details
Catalog? Yes
Other products? Finishing supplies
Can you order wood to specific lengths (for yield purposes)? No
Volume discount? Yes
Credit card? Yes

Xylo Moulding
2000 Louisville Rd
Savannah, GA 31412
Honduras Mahogany
Honey Locust
Louro Faia (to be discontinued)
Birdseye Maple
Fiddleback Maple
Partridge Wood
Purple Heart
Red Cedar
Teak (Asian)
Teak (Surinam)
Tigerwood (to be discontinued)
Urana (to be discontinued)
Wormy Chestnut (Subject to Availability)
Length Yes
Chop Service Yes
Joined if needed? No
Only unfinished, or able to finish? Finishing services available
Metal inlays? No
Min $ for order? 25 ft
Min ft for custom order? varies
# of profiles offered? + or - 300
# of woods offered ? 20
All woods in all profiles? 50%
Corner samples? Yes, call for details
Catalog? Yes
Other products? Display Easels
Can you order wood to specific lengths (for yield purposes)?
Volume discount? Yes
Credit card? Yes
Wow Mark. That's some info stash you have there.
and one more for you stash. Garrett Moulding, Coral St, Santa Cruz 800-645-3344
Walnut & Ebonized Walnut

Min order 4'
Min chop 4'
Smallest chop 5"
5 chops=free freight
Full line distributer
for Designer.

And can ship direct from mill in Georgia.

Min custom run 250'



You are such a nice, good-hearted and mature person!
I must admit in the open that I like your posts and, coming from me, that IS a genuine compliment.

Just in case someone is trully interested in high quality ebony moldings of Duch finest craftsmanship, you must look into AEDICULE of San Francisco (contact Peter Werkhowen and Mark Guthrie, tel:415-771-5837, website at and email at

PS: I've just checked their website and it is currently under reconstruction. Well, I guess you must take my word for it. I stay for true quality and I expect you trust my recommendation. Now, not many may need THAT quality ebony frames on a regular base, but remember that source for those rare moments when luck strikes and quality and uniqueness weigh more than price tag.

[ 09-27-2004, 10:09 PM: Message edited by: American Choice ]
Originally posted by FramingFool:
[QB] I have no problem with rocking the boat .... my history speaks for itself ... I'd just like to know who's talking.

I searched it for you and here is my finding: the name of taht person is John Wonton Smith, the proud owner of Wonton Fine Art Gallery from 225 Fift Ave. NYC, NY 10010. Do you feel better now, can you talk in all confidence?
Man, we keep forgetting that we are foggy people in here made of that many KB ... we keep on forgetting that we can be whoever we please as long as we know what we are talking/asking about and keep on grumbling.


You are talking to same John (JRB)that was repeatedly venting against LaMarche for having big problems with their service and their picking up the telephone. Now, what is the politically correctness book saying in this case? John may graciousely go unpunished but WontonSupe is too new and easy target to miss?
Wonton has a right to bitch, Kathy has a right to bitch about wonton's identity, Ron has a right to bitch about anything he wants, 10,000 posts have earned him that right.Cornel has a right to voice in, Mark has the right to post one ten thousand word post, etc. Hey Folks it's The Grumble, that's why we love it. Guess what, I think your all just great, so there.

Originally posted by American Choice:


You are talking to same John (JRB)that was repeatedly venting against LaMarche for having big problems with their service and their picking up the telephone. Now, what is the politically correctness book saying in this case? John may graciousely go unpunished but WontonSupe is too new and easy target to miss?
Cornel, The difference is that JRB has identified himself. If LaMarche wanted to challenge his comments they could. I don't think it is a free speech or PC issue. It is called playing fair.

I didn't mean to make such a fuss over this. I'm sure spicywonton is a very nice person. It isn't even my fight, I don't even deal with Vermont Hardwoods. This has been my MO my whole life. Ialways feel the need to come to the defense of absolutely anybody. I'm not even quite sure why. Could be growing up one of six kids and always negotiating for fair play. Could be my sense of justice and the American way.
I've had more than a couple people tell me I should be involved in advocacy of some kind. I don't know why I keep inflicting it on the Grumble, it just doesn't translate on the written page. But if any of you are ever in a playground fight or being picked on by the "man" just wait to see me in action.....

Real identity was not an issue when we got enrolled in TG. As I recall it, each of us could have been the queen of England or Bill Clinton himself, as long as interested in framing and able to entertain on specific topics. The fact that some added their real names to their known screen names, in my opinion that came out of vanity, insecurity or plain naiveté. It remains a fact that, for instance, Kathy is no more eloquent or legally exposed for her views expressed in here than Emibub was. More over, at
the end of some 4 years we, the veterans, can hardly associate a few names with their respective physiognomies, and understandably so. Then why pretend to know who are we talking to when any phony name would do it just fine? It's like trying to regulate the speed shooting stars enter the Earth's atmosphere in hope to bring a sense of order and safety to it.
I apologize; I should have, indeed, done a little research before stating that SpicyWonton was unidentified.

I do, however, object to the remarks about a premier supplier without taking steps to correct any issues he may have had with them .... bad form, at the least.

Then again, as we have all seen lately, "bad form" is not limited to him...
Whoa, I'm so sorry I opened up such a big can of worms and I hope that was not unfair of me (if so, I really apologize). In retrospect, if I could go back and re-post I probably would have rephrased it a bit (I was just so bothered by the way we were treated that I've been feeling a bit grouchy when I posted it). Anyhow, I suppose I owe an explanation and so here it is:

Vermont Hardwoods produces a wonderful product and I am glad that most of you have had a good experience but unfortunately we did not. We have been working with them for quite some time and never in the past had a problem as far as craftmanship was concerned.

About a week ago we did have our first complaint and when we called to tell them about it we were astonished by the way they handled our phone call. It could be that someone was just in a cranky mood that day, who knows. We told them about the problem we were having (our client was not happy with the frame) and they became extremely hostile, rude and defensive.

For the record, I understand if they don't agree with us/ our client and if they have their own opinion about whether or not we deserve a replacement. I have no problem talking this sort of thing over and coming to some sort of agreement and understanding. But *please* don't get such a rude and condescending tone, refuse to accept responsibility and then most of all tell us that we are not considered a "good customer".

They then went on to give us a definition of a good customer which is apparently "a company/ person who orders high quantity on a regular basis". Apparently the other customers who have smaller businesses (such as us) fall into a different catagory. They very kindly even offered to rate us on a scale of 1-10 in order to demonstrate how good of a customer we are compared to their others. Unfortunately we had to hang up the phone at that point, since we nearly fell off our chairs, in the state of shock.

Anyhow, I am glad you all have had a good experience and I am sorry we had such an awful one. The person who said all of this to us knows who we are and can feel free to explain her side of the story any time she likes. Quite honestly, we have been waiting all week for an explanation of why we were treated so horrendously. It may just be that this is how they do business, bigger clients are just considered better and deserve better treatment. To each his own, I suppose.
Spicy, I have samples displayed from both Vermont Hardwoods and Picture Woods and have had nothing but nice dealings with both. I hope that the folks at VH work this out with you, we all know David from VH as a rational and valuable contributor to this forum.

Have you been properly welcommed to TG? If not, we are glad to have you in the fray! If nothing else, you can tell what a passionate and caring bunch we are!

edie the knowswhatitsliketobegrouchy goddess
Not too long ago, I had a very poor experience w/ a vendor and posted my disappointment here.

It's ironic that I received Many, many requests for me to name the company involved - out loud - on TG. I really wanted to but instead, chose to respond to people's requests privately on an individual basis. Personally, I believe that companies who treat customers rudely should be identified because that's the only way they can be held accountable for their actions.

I don't see any problem w/ the fact that this person chooses not to identify themselves. Gosh, there's an awful lot of people who I see post here that I have no idea who they really are. It's nice to know someone's real name but it's just not a big deal to me.

Since I look to this forum for framing information, my outlook is, if it's information I can use, I take it, if not, I pass it by.

Spicywonton, I think you were treated very poorly by the company reps. I know that not every customer is treated the same way by the same company reps.

I suggest you contact someone at that company who is at an Officer level and explain the situation. It would be in their best interest to know how you were treated. If they choose to ignore you, then it's a poor business decision on their part and eventually they will feel the effect on their bottom line. Or not.

Unfortunately, we smaller businesses just don't have a lot of clout but that's just the way it is. It makes me all the more appreciative of the wonderful companies that I deal with who treat me with respect no matter how much volume I generate with them.

Welcome to TG.

BTW, hope all the folks in the path of the storms are hanging in there. I'll send some sunshine your way.


Amy McCray
I remember that Amy, and I'm glad you brought it up. Appearantly your 96 post some how qualified you as a resonable source and if that had been your first post you would have gotten a similar verson of this.
Hi SpicyWonton,
This is a great place to open up a can of worms, I just think it carries more weight with a name attached. Since you both know who each other is, have at it. I bet you all will come to a mutual agreement. Good luck to you and welcome to the Grumble!
I did not lock this thread.

I locked a copy of it.

It was not locked becuse of an "out of hand" thing.

It was locked so that on that copy of this thread nothing can be edited out.

For instance, if you said something in your last post, and later wanted to edit it, you can. But on the locked thread you can't.

Why you may ask would I want to make sure un-editable record of a thread?

For instance, if a grumbler posted intenionally false information only with the intent to inflame and instigate (Cornel's post), and then later his ruse it exposed (Spicy's follow-up post, and the completion of her profile information), I would like to make sure the original informaion was on record.

It begs the quesiton of how much of what is posted by him on other threads is made up information, but just sounds convincing.

It also brings up the question of why. Why would he do that? It makes his Grumble motives all the more clear: To engage, inflame and stir the pot (in my opinion, at least).
Vermont bagged Less too.

I placed an order. A couple of weeks go by and Less is wondering where the **** are my frames.

When I called them, they replied, we just got back from a show.

That's nice, thanks for calling, Less is thinking. I will say there are many companies with better phone manners. I didn't complain to them because I got the feeling they really didn't care. So, I said it here.

I like their products, and this is the first problem, but I think it is important to be able to bitch as long as it is not mean spirited.

Maybe they felt a little bad, because they did not charge Less freight. They didn't charge Less more either.

So, thanks for the free freight.

I certainly would want to hear from my unhappy clients.

And Less is hiding nuttin. I think there is an email button around here somewhere.
Less kind of gave me a "lightbulb" moment. He prefers to remain anonymous which is okay in my book. But the difference is he does allow access through his email address or private messages. When Spicywonton first logged on she didn't have any of that available so she appeared hidden. So, if I could make a small correction, I don't need your name, just a way to get a hold of you, if you ever happen to disparage me, not that anybody would.

To illustrate a point I'll use Less as an example. Not a bad example, call it a coincidence that his name just happened to come up. Last year sometime I posted a question I had about a vendor, I wasn't happy with something I had seen and wanted to notice if others had seen it too. My sales rep called me prompted by whomever monitors the site. She wanted to offer an explanation. One thing we talked about is vendors participating on the G. Her instinct was to log in and clear up the problem but as with a lot of the big vendors they have been instructed to not do so. They handle it off line. One of the other things we talked about was why should they respond to anonymous posts. Less had said something contrary in the thread(just being Less). Her thought was his contribution didn't mean as much because he didn't have a legit name(like emibub). She thought it was too easy to slam companies and not be responsible for it. I don't think she was aware that his email was listed but I don't think that was the point. It did give me an inside look on how the vendors have to deal with what is being said here.

I think this particular company views the G as a thorn to be dealt with just like most of the vendors do. I understand why they don't participate, it would take a team of experts to monitor and respond once it started. This forum has a real power here, and it is growing and becoming a formidable force(in my mind anyway). It seems that with that comes a certain responsibility.

As to the cloak and dagger stuff why oh why would Cornel feel the need to make stuff up? I was suitably impressed that there really was someone with the name "Wonton". I wonder what it would take for me to ever feel the need to defend Cornel? I can't fathom the magnitude of the event that would have to occur.
Does anyone remember what the time limit is for editing your own post? It was, and maybe still is, ten minutes.

I don't want to go and post something stupid on a forum I don't moderate and then try editing it every few seconds just to find out. I'm a very busy guy, you know.
I just gave it a try Ron from my post from an hour ago and it said my time had elapsed.

I'm trying again.....don't know what time I posted this in real time though....

Mike, I don't think your 10 minute guess holds water......I figure it has been 15 minutes since I posted this. What kind of moderators are you guys? You better go consult the manual.

Still editing I figure a half hour in......

That was the first edit that actually showed a time.....

I hope somebody will delete all this, if read as is it looks like a bunch of nonsense, and we all know I have a reputation to uphold.

Still editing....

last edit was 10:19....

My thought is in approximately 2 minutes it will be an hour and i won't be able to edit again....

[ 09-28-2004, 10:38 PM: Message edited by: Emibub ]
Yea, the max edit time is still 10 minutes. Moderators are exempt.

I have met David many times, including the recent Atlanta show, and he's one of the nicest and calmest people I've known through the grumble. I can't picture him being aggressive.

If it was one of his staff, i'm sure he would want to know. If it was him, there may be two sides to the story - as is often the case. Like oil and water, Vermont personalities and NYC personalities may not mix well

In any case, hopefully he will take this up with you privately or here, to address each of your concerns.

PS: Welcome to the grumble!
<strike>Kathy, I heard your time had elapsed about eleven years ago.</strike> Thanks for checking, Kathy. It's good to have a mortal friend sometimes.
Just checking the time, one of you moderator Gods can delete this......

Okay, this one I posted at 7:54. I'm quite sure way more than 10 minutes have elapsed......I have no proof though.

[ 09-28-2004, 10:29 PM: Message edited by: Emibub ]
Who said the times they are a changin'? Several months can change the world I guess, who would have thunk it?

[ 09-28-2004, 10:30 PM: Message edited by: dns ynko ]
Kathy, I think each time you edit, you get another ten minutes to edit your edit. If you're really bored (and I'm sure you're not) you could keep editing indefinitely, as long as you don't doze off for ten minutes, or run out for deep-fried cheese curds.

That's my theory and I DID check the manual. It said one of the moderator's jobs is to keep a thread from wandering off-topic.


(Spicywonton, if she's still in the building, is now thinking we're not so much hostile as just, plain crazy.)

dns, it was Bob Dylan.
So, Ron, are you saying I should go 10 minutes between edits? I think I probably did.....I do happen to have plenty of time, I'm printing up postcards and getting a mailer ready for my customers tonight.....this provides relief.

I'm gonna wait at least 15 minutes on this one.