Need expert advise joining 5" frames

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seymour

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toledo,ohio
Hi. I am about to order a 5" frame for a client. Of course I have realized that all of my vises only can join to about 4" or so, and to top that off, the distributor does not wedge 5" frames. Can anybody offer suggestions on the joining of large frames? Are there other types of vises out there I can pick up say at Home Depot or something. I will take all the comments I can get. and I always appreciate any help I can get. I would hate to not be able to offer large frames to any client. Thx, seymour
 
For a small investment you can go to a home supply store and get a web clamp or band clamp. It works like a big belt around the frame. You need perfect or near perfect miters (the bigger trick if you ask me) then glue the miters well and tighten the belt around the frame and allow to dry completely. Then from the backside you can toenail in a few nails just for backup. One more pointer put a small piece of release paper between the band and the frame so any excess glue can’t glue the band to the frame.
 
Originally posted by FramingFool:
Any distributer that can't join their own frames should be looked upon askance....
Click to expand...
Well, that's probably true, but some of us buy chops from vendors who don't deliver locally. Chances are that if the moulding is 5" wide it's for a fairly large piece of artwork and even if the cost of shipping it UPS wasn't prohibitive the outlook for it arriving without at least one corner crunched isn't so great. That is, if it doesn't exceed UPS size limitations.

I realize this doesn't address the original question. Alas, I don't have any great advice there. I actually only show a very few mouldings that are that wide, and only from a vendor with local truck delivery. On the rare occasions when I have sold those, I've ordered them joined.
 
Originally posted by Meghan MacMillan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by FramingFool:
Any distributer that can't join their own frames should be looked upon askance....
Click to expand...
Well, that's probably true, but some of us buy chops from vendors who don't deliver locally. Chances are that if the moulding is 5" wide it's for a fairly large piece of artwork and even if the cost of shipping it UPS wasn't prohibitive the outlook for it arriving without at least one corner crunched isn't so great. That is, if it doesn't exceed UPS size limitations. </font>[/QUOTE]That's true, but it should be considered BEFORE the sample is put on the wall.
 
Strap clamps and a detail biscuit joiner - the biscuits also help the alignment while clamping. If the moulding is tall enough put on biscuit in vertically.

Pat :D
 
Seymour

As Smitten just said, 90% of a good job is to have that wide molding perfectly mitered. No clamp is going to forgive you for an imperfect mitre. The wider the molding, that much more critical and difficult a good mitre is. From your post I suspect that you don't have the right tools and expertise to do this job corectly.
Assuming that you got a perfect mitre, I need to warn you against the band clamp that Smitten is talking about. That clamp is puting out the least preasure of all clamps and you need MAXIMUM presure for such a wide (and possibly large) frame. That band clamp tightens on hand twisting a screwin device. Such clamps will not develope much tension at all and with such a large molding you need MAXIMUM pressure available.
The biscuits are a must.
You can use a band clamp, to hold that frame together, but you need to wedge all corners to properly finish that job. That implies a fixture that must be build of wood or improvised clamps made of long pieces of 2 x 4's. You might be better off giving this job to a good cabinet maker. If that frame is not very large, problems remain the same but handling the frame is less difficult.
 
Just a thought...

Do you have any other local distributors you do business with that would join the mldg for you? I'm fortunate enough to have one locally that has cut down a LaMarche 5" discontinued mldg frame that was around 32X40 and rejoin it for $ 25.00. That included pick-up and delivery!

Ah, but as Mr. Harvey says...and now for the rest of the story...

Unfortunately, even though I called and faxed specific instructions as per their directions, they miscut the frame. Beautifully joined and, as I told them, they should charge more for such service, but the final execution left something to be desired... at least they refunded my $ 25.00! :rolleyes:

A lesson to be learned...

Whenever you work with someone elses materials and they are irreplaceable, you need to factor into your pricing the fact that the more jobs you take in like this, the more the odds are that someday someone somewhere will be human and make a mistake. I was not happy with the outcome or my distributors "resolution" to the problem and finished a $ 400.00 frame job at no charge to my customer due to my distributor's mistake (It was about 1" too small in each direction).

Another lesson my distributor should learn, but seems not to...

When you make an error, own up to it and resolve the problem promptly. You will win a customer for life and be respected for your integrity. Take lemons and make lemonaide.

I obviously wasn't pleased with how my distributor handled things in this and other circumstances and it has been reflected in my que of "who ya gonna call" when I need product.

This was a perfect example of a no-win situation where a little sugar in the lemonaide would have left a totally different taste in my mouth.

That "sugar" doesn't even have to go ca-ching... a simple "we goofed and I'm really sorry" would have sufficed, but that wasn't even forthcoming after 4 phone calls trying to get an answer and not even a return phone call...until 10 days passed. Empathy (placing yourself in anothers shoes) is imperative in business...I had almost two weeks of placating my customer before I had the information needed to resolve the issue.

shrug.gif


Dave Makielski

"You can't change the direction of the wind,...but...you can adjust your sails."
 
I located a vendor a few months ago on the internet that carried miter vises like the old Stanley 400's that could handle moulding up to 6 inches wide....but for the life of me I can not seem to locate them again....Is there anyone out there that knows of a vendor who carries vises this large ??? I also remember that they seemed fairly expensive....
Any help would be appreciated...
Thanks,
J. Michael
 
Seymour,
I assume that you don't have an underpinner/V-nailer? Or that this moulding for some reason won't fit into the one you have? As I have joined mouldings that large in my underpinner.

And I agree with framing fool...What kind of moulding maker provides a frame that even they can't join? If you supply the frame you should be able to put it together.

Dave,
Are you having a bad day? This is the second thread I've read by you today that you have gone off on a rant on. Sit down, take a deep breath and imagine you're sipping a corona on a secluded beach.
 
I'm going to my happy place now...

:D

Dave Makielski
 
I need to stress again that a good joing is a combination of four major factors:
1. perfect mitre (45 degree sharp)
2. clean surfaces (shaved, no grease, no dust)
2. very powerful clamping and
3. interlacking contact surfaces (fingers, biscuits)

Like some of you are very good at designing or preservation, I might be your best wood joining expert in here. My business revolves around joining wood in all possible situations and I pay dearly for any failure in this field. There are quite a bunch of possible mistakes which may combine and make life miserable.
If you don't trust or understand me, you certainly can trust your countryman R. BRUCE HOADLEY the famous author of "Understanding Wood - a craftsman' guide to wood technology"
a guy who speaks English to your best understanding.

Here comes what he's got to say on page 197 of his book: "The object of clamping a joint is to press the glueline into a continuous, uniformly thin film and to bring the wood surfaces into intimate contact with the glue.
...Since loss of solvent causes some glue shrinkage, an internal stress develops in the glueline during setting. This stress becomes intolerably high if gluelines are too thick. Gluelines should be no more than a few thousandths of an inch thick.
...Uneveness of (glue) spread and irregularity of surface usually require considerable external forces to properly bring surfaces together. The novice commonly blunders on pressure, both in magnitude and uniformity.
... For domestic species with a specific gravity of 0.3 to 0.7, pressure should range from 100 psi to 250 psi. Dense tropical species may require up to 300 psi."


Since a 5" wide by 3" tall molding has a surface of aproximatively 11 square inch at its 45 degree mitred cut, for domestic species of wood that surface requires a total pressure of 1,100 to 2,750 pounds/each corner. That is just as if 4 to 11 people like me or Baer would be all sitting on that one corner. Now I hope it becomes clear that strap clamps tightened by hand, vises and V nails are more than inadequate for the job. And from people paying so much attention to a set of FACTS guidng us toward correct framing one would expect at least a properly joined, long lasting frame.

[ 10-07-2005, 12:37 AM: Message edited by: Whynot ]
 
I have a miter-vise bolted and flush with my framing table. I had the back part of the vise tapped and threaded for this very problem. I had a plate mounted on the back part, half an inch higher, that I can remove when not needed. I now can screw plates to the table itself to deal with larger moulding. Any local machine shop could help you out.


Don't have a digital camera or I would up load a photo. Sorry. E-mail me if you need more info. Good luck.
 
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