My original Durer

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tnframer408

tnframer408

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Posts
1,506
Loc
Knoxville TN
Well, gang, my Durer has arrived. It is a woodcut from a book printed on the Guttenburg press (as in Bible) and the second printing on that press after the Bible was printed. It is authenticated by a NY dealer so I know it's the real deal. Plus my customer's brother is the bookseller in NYC

It is in Latin, and the copy was printed before Durer made the woodcut, then the woodcut was printed around the copy.

Now here's my problem: the customer wants this floated on a mat. HUH??? This means I need to use an "S" hinge, water and paste on the page, thru the backing mat , etc etc etc

HELP HERE.

I just ruined the multithousand Durer by alter it, aren't I?

I would think I want to make a sling mount or archival corner hinges, mat it with 100% cotton, use an Abe Munn frame and be done with it.

I really don't think that a float mount is acceptable here.

And I'm talking 100% + archival here, since it is about 500 yrs. old and ORIGINAL.

Inputy would be helpful AND I AM SHOWING CUSTOMER THESE RESPONSES, SO BE NICE. :D
 
calling ms. rebecca and mr.hugh. they are your folks here.

i will try though, for fun. I think if you use a z hinge and rice paste that would be an acceptable method...no wait on that. If you have an image that old it is hard to know if the paper will act up on you. So I am going with a sling mount. You would not want the paper to intertwine with the fibers in the hinging paper. If you have to take this off later on, it is possible that taking it off will make the paper weaker. So I vote sling it, and overmat the Albrecht Durer.

I had a classmate that did a self portait as if he was Durer, it was amazing. The image was great, but no Durer.

Good Luck.
ds
 
In our shop we would strongly discourage a float mount for this piece. It needs a Mylar pressure mount, and mats to the edges to support. You can do this and just show the edge, but you won't add anything to the artwork itself. PS Cooool beans!
 
The trouble with ALL float mounts is that there is no way I know of to do them that does not involve putting adhesive of some sort on the artwork.

The 'float' in float mount describes the visual effect, not the reality.

I would strongly recommend archival corner supports and a mat (or two and maybe a nice water gilt fillet).

SOAP BOX ALERT: It seems to me that the purchase of a work with this kind of historic significance carries with it a responsibility for its preservation. Display options should inculde only those which are in the best interest of the art.

Kit
 
Michael this is WAYYYY out of my league. However i did once (along time ago ,but that's another story) frame an entire Phone book.
The major problem was I assumed the clent wanted to see the entire BOOK(Face cover and sides)when actually all they wanted to see was the cover (It had a picture of a Barracks in which he was born and lived).
I attempted to make ashadow box with ashelf made of an inverted piece of smaller shadowbox moulding that was lined with Alpha mats to match the back mat and the fore mat.THEN he told me he didn't want to see "ALL THAT OTHER STUFF" .So we tore down the frame and mad a "Sink mat" with a Mylar cover .
The phone Book was much less valueable and way easier to replace byt you might build the same shelf and strap it in with Mylar straps .If you can build a shelf of something non-acidic.
As i said this is way out my league but maybe someone can improve on my ideas. But be sure of what they want to see FIRST.
BUDDY
 
I don't see a problem with Japanese paper and wheat starch paste hinges. The paper will be good quality rag, and the ink nice and stable. Shouldn't be any suprises and easily reversible.

Rebecca
 
Rebecca: I"m really concerned about the reversibility issue, only because (1) I don't want water touching this thing and (2) I still have concerns about residual glue. Also, having hinged many Amsterdam Audubons using the rice paper, I find there's always some residual left. Heaven's knows what residual may occur on something this old.

I'm tending more towards two eight ply rag mats, a single or double ink line on the top mat and letting it go at that.

I'd like to do a fillet BUT: what am I introducing into the package as concerns pollutants.

Yeah, I'm real concerned about what I'm "leaving behind" or how I'm affecting the piece.

O one more thing: any ofyou want to see this, I can send a digital photo. I'm not particularly impressed with it, but then again I'm not too familiar with Durer and his work. Maybe someone could post it here if I send an image????

[ 09-03-2003, 07:23 AM: Message edited by: tnframer408 ]
 
Michael--I like the two eight ply, maybe with mylar strips or corners to secure the art. I agree with your concern about using past. I wouldn't want any liquid touching this. Fillets might be nice instead of the line on the upper mat. Bottom mat would give you a good barrier between the art and the fillet and I can't see how having wood inside the package would introduce much more atmospheric influence than the wood frame.
 
16th Century paper was made of linen fibers, making them very strong and stable. Hinging does
involve application of paste to the hinged item
and other support options such as folded paper edge stirps should be considered first, but as
Rebecca said, when the owner requires that the
edges of the item should show, hinging an item
such as this is logical.
Before anything (especially high value items)is
hinged, one must practice the technique extensively. Passing the hinges through slits
in the back mat, cut so that they line up just
below the upper edge of the item, is very helpful.
There are a couple of techniques that should allow
the hinges go on without cockling the paper. Hand
drying the hinges with dried blotter paper is
one, using micro-dot application of paste to the
hinge is another. Both have been written up in
PFM.
Use of polyester corners or pressure-sensitive
adhesive in contact with or porximity to such
a work would pose more risk than well executed
hinging would.

Hugh
 
Many thanks, Hugh. Yes, ever since William Parker taught microdot techniques in Lexington KY, that's what we've used.

thanks for the paper info also. Asyou can well imagine, this is no room for experimentation; however, I'd rather go "drier" than "wetter.

Will show customer two options for hinging and let her decide.

Again, thanks to you all
 
It really would benefit from the all over support that a mat would give it. Then you can use a variety of non-altering methods to mount it, and still have a nice clean look.
I agree that, with something this historical, preservation should override whim.
 
I have a question ... Maybe for Hugh ...

Why not take two sheets of mylar ... put a back mat, then a mat with opening cut slightly larger than the top mat opening, then a sheet of mylar, then the piece, then the second sheet of mylar, then the top mat. The piece "floats," all edges are seen, the back mat shows around the piece (through the mylar) and no adhesive touches the piece. In the things I have done this way I only needed to tape the mylar to the mats, not to each other, so there was no adhesive touching the piece at all.

Comments???

Cliff
 
Why not use the window mount. It is shown in one of this years PFM issues. Hugh, did you do that article? You do not see the edges but wouldn't this be the route to go and do the least harm?
 
If you like the fillet idea but are concerned about it, couldn't you use a Bevel Accent? I'm with you: I'd be worried about using hinges. Hugh and Rebecca have been doing this for years, but I haven't that much experience so I'd opt for a sink mount with Mylar.

Good luck
 
Oooooh, MM, that reminds me of gilded bevels. A gilded bevel on an 8 ply mat would be nice instead of a fillet.
 
Merps:

My concern with bevel accents is that you still have tape, glue, etc etc. forming the corners. I want NOTHING in this package.

esp because this customer is a friend with a 10 yr old and I know d....nmed well this piece will in fact be passe ddown at least to him.

then I go to .....museum--fill in the blanks--and all they do is 8-ply in plexi.

I really really think a coupla 8-plys with an ink line, line the moudling with aluminimum barrier tape, etc etc. and I'm there.
 
I'd like to see a picture of the finished product.

Be a great addition to my reference book.
 
Hey Micheal,

Less would float mount it like the client wants.

You better get used to handling valuable works if you are marketing to those who buy them.

Speaking of Munn, if you don't make your own, they make some beautiful fabric wrapped and gilt mats too. The samples are $100. Also, check out the French mat company for great authentic hand-washed mats.

This is a good candidate for Museum glass.

Just treat it well, and don't sweat it.
 
Michael:

We do lots of work with a local museum on high-value one of kind work. We took in 5 Bearden lithos today to be framed for an opening next week. Our experiences so far......

The micro-dot pasted hinges work well. BUT USE CAUTION and practice first. It's easy to cockle the paper with hinges that are too wet. It's difficult/expensive/embarssing to get rid of the cockles.

I agree with the 8ply/acrylic. Looks great and the 8ply provides a good, strong base.

Congrats - these jobs are alternatively challenging, rewarding, fun, and frustrating. Please share a picture of the finished piece.

Tony
 
Michael,

I understand your worrying about the piece and adding things etc., but I also understand the client wanting to see all of it. I probably would too. Sometime we (me too) make things too complicated, when simplicity is easier and safer.

It might be that the paste hinges are going to be the best way to get you where you want to go. If, after presenting the options to your client, they still want the float mount, it might be worthwhile to buy 20 minutes of a paper conservator's time, and have them apply the hinges for you.

You could sit in for a mini workshop, and ask questions, see contingency plans if rippling happens (can't imagine it would, but even if it did, it's easily remedied...).

Hinging is not the only option, but if it is what you/client need, think of it this way. The print has made it through a few centuries, and has surely been put through some rougher paces than anything wsp hinging could offer.

Rebecca
 
Originally posted by Rebecca:
...it might be worthwhile to buy 20 minutes of a paper conservator's time, and have them apply the hinges for you.
Rebecca
Click to expand...
Now that sounds like a great way to ensure Peace Of Mind!
It's the best idea I've heard in a long time.

edie the needinglessliabilityinmylife goddess
 
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