Question Mounting Rice Paper

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Beveled

Beveled

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
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We just received a painting on rice paper, acrylic I think. The customer was rather difficult. She insisted that it should not only lay perfectly flat, but that all the small crinkles in it would be smoothed out. She said that she had other pieces framed that were perfectly flat. Couldn't we just iron it??? :faintthud:

We said that a mat would help a lot in flattening it, but because the paint has been applied, a slight buckling has happened to the paper and probably will not flatten out completely with a mat.

We also mentioned that we would refuse to dry mount it, and suspected that her other pieces may have been done this way. She said no they were not.

You can imagine that now she is looking at us like we are idiots. So we defer to you. Do you all have any suggestions, comments or ideas about:

1. how her other pieces may have been handled?
2. how to flatten this piece without dry mounting it?
 
Get her to bring one of the others in so you can "match the work to them".
This will tell you how it was done.

It would be worth your time and effort to open one of the others to verify how it was done.

Other than that, I'm not sure you are going to be able to satisfy this person... especially if the others WERE dry mounted and she doesn't know that.
If they were dry mounted and you show her, you might as well dry mount this one as well. Good luck getting the crinkles out.

Jeff types faster than me!!
 
Rice paper is tricky, drymounting it will most likely end up folding over and creating deep creases. Ironing will not work, you might make it worse. I would not do it. Like it was said on another thread "this is the owner's problem not yours, once you attempt a fix and it goes bad it's your problem. I had to learn this the hard way and I am not going to repeat it.

The only person I know who flattens rice paper is a Asian paper conservator.
 
Dry mounting is always risky. Sometimes "crinkles" become permanent creases. Sometimes art materials can melt or otherwise react adversely. Original art on natural materials is not an industrial product. It has "character" which, to a sensitive person, is part of its charm and appeal. This customer may have unrealistic expectations about what is possible for her item. Don't be bullied into doing something which may harm the art. Then you would see just how difficult she could really be. To paraphrase a statement from another recent thread, don't turn her problem into your problem.
:kaffeetrinker_2: Rick

edit: Randy and I tie. "great minds..."
 
RParrish said:
Rice paper is tricky, drymounting it will most likely end up folding over and creating deep creases. Ironing will not work, you might make it worse. I would not do it. Like it was said on another thread "this is the owner's problem not yours, once you attempt a fix and it goes bad it's your problem. I had to learn this the hard way and I am not going to repeat it.

The only person I know who flattens rice paper is a Asian paper conservator.
Click to expand...

Am trying to locate this other thread.............anyone???
 
University of Michigan Museum of Art has one of the few Asian Paper Conservators in the country and she does work on the side.

PM me if you want her contact info.
 
RParrish said:
The only person I know who flattens rice paper is a Asian paper conservator.
Click to expand...

From the information supplied by the original poster, it is not really clear what the support is. True rice paper is not a paper at all, but the pith of a particular type of tree that grows in Formosa. The images are generally detailed gouache paintings of butterflys or Chinese aristocrats in elaborate garb, and were made for the export market in the 19th cen., possibly earlier. Dard Hunter's Papermaking book (Dover) give detailed information about these pieces, and the V and A also published a very pretty book about them in the '80's. Rice paper is indeed challanging to flatten.

But if the poster is referring to long fibered Asian papers such as Japanese kozo, most paper conservators (Asian or Western trained) would be familiar with the flattening process as many artists, Western and Eastern, use these paper supports. Heavy layers of oil based ink or acrylic paint would complicate the process because they restrict the normal expansion and contraction of the paper - unlike the sumi ink/watercolor typically used in Asian style paintings.

Inuit prints using oil based inks, for example, are typically on Japanese kozo paper and the heavily inked ones are tricky to flatten. But I don't think a conservator specializing in traditional Asian art on paper would have an edge on flattening them, because the medium is not typical of traditional Asian painting.
 
Rebecca said:
From the information supplied by the original poster, it is not really clear what the support is. True rice paper is not a paper at all, but the pith of a particular type of tree that grows in Formosa. The images are generally detailed gouache paintings of butterflys or Chinese aristocrats in elaborate garb, and were made for the export market in the 19th cen., possibly earlier. Dard Hunter's Papermaking book (Dover) give detailed information about these pieces, and the V and A also published a very pretty book about them in the '80's. Rice paper is indeed challanging to flatten.

But if the poster is referring to long fibered Asian papers such as Japanese kozo, most paper conservators (Asian or Western trained) would be familiar with the flattening process as many artists, Western and Eastern, use these paper supports. Heavy layers of oil based ink or acrylic paint would complicate the process because they restrict the normal expansion and contraction of the paper - unlike the sumi ink/watercolor typically used in Asian style paintings.

Inuit prints using oil based inks, for example, are typically on Japanese kozo paper and the heavily inked ones are tricky to flatten. But I don't think a conservator specializing in traditional Asian art on paper would have an edge on flattening them, because the medium is not typical of traditional Asian painting.
Click to expand...

I'm afraid I cannot answer as to the pith or type of paper. I'm not an expert on paper. I just frame to the best of my ability. It looks like typical "rice paper" if you will, that we often see, or the kind that we use for float mounting with rice starch. It does not look hand made, and the paint appears to be acrylic or gouache. She was not able to tell me.

I do believe that her expectations are unrealistic because she wanted all the creases that are indicative of this kind of paper taken out.
 
Rice paper

True rice paper looks something like papyrus and it is far more likely that your paper is Washi = Japanese handmade paper, comprising Kozo, or similar fibers. If a painting has been done on such paper, in acrylic, getting that painting to go flat is a serious procedure and should be done by a conservator. Heat should not be used, with acrylic paint.



Hugh
 
so Hugh, allow me to digress only slightly, Traditional "tourist paintings" are acrylic, are they not? We have drymounted them on low heat - (of course, only for friends after having them sign off with our lawyers first) with good results. Is there a max temp you would recomend?
 
My experience has taught me that inks or paints on thin papers shrink or expand the paper just where the inks or paints are.

I've laid such pieces under 1/4 thick plate glass to show the customer that no amount of pressure will flatten this stuff without leaving wrinkles.

This is a lose-lose situation and you're better off suggesting that they take it to a BB and let them ruin it.

They're better off taking it to a paper conservator as has already been advised.

We're framers, not magicians.
 
Flattening tourist art

Since heat mounting is not part of paper preservation, safe temperature levels are problematical, but it can be said that acrylic medium is often used as a thermo plastic adhesive for mounting fabric on window mats and it does flow at or below the silk setting on a household iron. Acrylic paint can be vulnerable to thermal issues going the other way, since it stiffens in the cold and can crack. This second fact should be considered when an acrylic painting is moved in the colder months. When heat is applied, less is always better, since heating anything ages it.



Hugh
 
Everyone, I appreciate your comments very much. This is helpful in dealing with a customer that truly THINKS she knows how her work has been handled in the past. Someone here mentioned don't let ourselves be bullied into doing anything we know we can't or shouldn't do, and I think we will leave it at that for her.

We are framing 2 other pieces for her, so perhaps we will gain her trust with those, and she can decide what she wants to do with the aforementioned.
 
Beveled said:
She insisted that it should not only lay perfectly flat, but that all the small crinkles in it would be smoothed out. She said that she had other pieces framed that were perfectly flat.
Click to expand...

Maybe she thinks everything is like a poster. Have you asked her to show you one of those "other pieces"? My bet is that she does not have any art on such a thin, brittle substrate that is perfectly flat.

The customer's ignorance is not your bliss.
 
Jim Miller said:
Have you asked her to show you one of those "other pieces"? My bet is that she does not have any art on such a thin, brittle substrate that is perfectly flat.
Click to expand...

We may have to ask her to bring one of those in. I'd like to help her out and frame her piece, but thus far she has been a difficult customer, and I suspect as well that her pieces have in fact been dry mounted even though she says they have not.
 
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