Mounting inkjet prints on Plexi

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Hazany

Hazany

CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
Joined
Apr 24, 2009
Posts
288
Loc
Philadelphia
We have a large international corporation as a customer. We frame, pack, and ship pictures for them in the US and abroad.
They have photographs of cities where they have offices. We print the photos using a large format Epson printer. Then we mount them on Plexiglas (3/16" thick with polished edges). We drill holes in the Plexi and send the hardware that is called "standoff".

I wanted to ask for advice about the mounting process. Even though we have already done many of these, I am a bit worried about possible mounting problems that might occur after they are shipped. No complaints so far but if a group of pictures (size 28x44) develop problems in Australia, it would be a bit difficult to fix.
For a while we used to spray the back of the pictures with 3M Super 77. Then we switched to 3M PMA adhesive that comes in rolls.
One problem is that the Plexi comes to us cut and polished so the picture has to be mounted exactly in the right place on the Plexi leaving a 2" border.
I know there is a process called face mounting using a roller press (which we have) but I am not sure if I can use it for this job.
Any thoughts? Have you had any issues with 3M PMA adhesive as far as bubbles, etc.?
Anyone with experience mounting on Plexi?

Second question: Once I post a question on the Grumble, I can't always find the thread later. Searching doesn't always work!
Bruce Hazany
Vision Graphics
Philadelphia
 
Neither of the mounting methods mentioned are considered to be permanent when applied to normal substrates (foam board, Gator foam, etc.). I do not know if the application to acrylic is in any way different in regard to the adhesives and how they and the acrylic interact, but I do know that the adhesives by themselves are in a constant state of change, and will eventually crystalize and lose the bond with the paper-bourne image and possibly with the acrylic substrate.
There are other roll type adhesives that are available that are much more agressive and long lived than the PMA or the spray adhesives. I believe the are targeted toward the sign making industry rather than the picture framing industry.

As far as finding threads is concerned...creating a title, as you have, that well describes the content is a great help when using the search function.
 
Of the 2 adhesives you mentioned, the PMA is the LEAST reliable for what you are trying to do. It isn't meant to hold as big as 28x44. Call 3M and ask them what the maximum size they recommend for PMA use. I'm sure it is alot smaller than what you are doing.
I'm actually surprised you haven't already had some problems with earlier pieces if you used PMA.
How about experimenting with dry mounting. Just saying..

Also look around for someone in your area who does mounting of large stuff for tradeshow exhibits. There are allot of them in your area as well as south Jersey. I know.. I used to work at them.

Do you laminate the images to protect the image or do you just spray it and hope that is enough. It isn't, by the way. Especially in a public environment.
They need to be laminated.
 
More questions - mounting on Plexi

When you say laminate do you mean laminating on both sides like a map or drivers license is done or do you mean laminate just on one side.
I can laminate on both sides using our roller press and then somehow adhere that to the Plexi. The laminating will make the whole picture rigid and easy to handle but then will it stick to the Plexi?

If I put the 3/16" Plexi in our seal vacuum press, do I have to worry about the Plexi damaging the press. 3/16" Plexi size 32x44 is heavy. If it doesn't damage the press, I can use a permanent dry-mounting tissue to mount the prints to the Plexi.
Thanks.
 
Hazany said:
I wanted to ask for advice about the mounting process.

For a while we used to spray the back of the pictures with 3M Super 77. Then we switched to 3M PMA adhesive that comes in rolls. One problem is that the Plexi comes to us cut and polished so the picture has to be mounted exactly in the right place on the Plexi leaving a 2" border. I know there is a process called face mounting using a roller press (which we have) but I am not sure if I can use it for this job. Any thoughts? Have you had any issues with 3M PMA adhesive as far as bubbles, etc.? Anyone with experience mounting on Plexi?
Click to expand...

First of all PMA and 3M Super 77 will fail - it is a matter of time, temperature.

Possible Solutions:

1) Laminate the front of the print and mount onto the plexi with a double-sided adhesive on your roller press. The registration can be improved by creating a template with a rectangle cut out where the print will be laid. Cut the adhesive to exact size and mount normally with your roller press.

You should be able to adjust your roller press to put the right amount of pressure on the plexi. It is the same size as mounting on foam.

2) Facemount the print from back of the plexi. In this case you need not laminate the print. This method requires a clean-room environment, and must constantly check for and prevent dust or or objects before you mount the image. This method also requires special technique, and I would practice enough to get comfortable with the process. You may experience an initial "silvering", which appear to be tiny bubbles on the print. If using quality adhesive, the silvering will disappear overnight. First time I tried this, it freaked me out, and was totally suprised the disappearance.

Facemount requires much more labor, but the resulting look of light diffracting through the plexi onto the face of the print yields a beautiful, stunning look.

Regular top mounting requires less labor and the laminate may soften the look of the print, but still is acceptable.

Both Seal and Drytac make excellent clear double sided adhesives for mounting.

Good luck with your project.

ernesto
 
So far I have used the roller press to laminate a print on both sides using a "pouch" which the print goes inside.
Are you saying to laminate the front and mount to the plexi all in one feed to the roller press? Or is there a way to laminate the front and then as a second step mount the back of the print to the Plexi?
Thanks.
 
Only laminate the front of the piece. Then you mount the laminated piece to the plexi.

You say you have a seal vacuum press. Is it a heat/vac press or just a
cold press?

A 40x60 heat press is what you need to laminate the art.
 
Hazany said:
Are you saying to laminate the front and mount to the plexi all in one feed to the roller press? Or is there a way to laminate the front and then as a second step mount the back of the print to the Plexi?
Thanks.
Click to expand...

We always laminate first and then mount it to substrate (with roller press). Is it even possible to do it simultaneously? ... maybe with four hands ;) ... but still too many thing can go wrong.
 
Bruce,
There is only one or two ways to do this if you want it to last.
The first is called Diasec a silicon process that is very expensive and only a few firms do it. (Laumont Studios,NY.)
When using a roll laminator it is called plexi face mounting. I use Seals Optimount Ultra. Very difficult to get right every time. Must have a super clean work area.
Go to Youtube and view the Bumblejax video on face mounting plexi.
I demonstrate the process in our workshop if you want to drive out to Morgantown.
 
We have a 40x60 heat/cold press. We have done plenty of laminating but always with foam core or gator under the picture. First we dry-mount, then we laminate the dry-mounted piece. I didn't know one can laminate a print without it being mounted first. I guess we can use a dummy piece of foam core under the print for support? How do you do it?
Thanks.

I will also check out the face mounting video.
Hazany
 
Hazany,

Sounds like you have both machines, ie a vacuum press with hot/cold and also a roller press. I believe you can accomplish the task with either machine. I use a roller press with cold mounting.

To laminate a print without first mounting it on a roller press, you need to have a "sled', which is nothing more than a substrate such as foamboard, with a layer of release paper attached to the surface. The print is placed face up on the "sled" and covered with the laminating material with a margin of excess all around. Separate a 1-2 inch strip of the laminate from its protective paper and attach to the sled. Slide the print under the laminate and align to the exposed laminate edge. Feed into the press and then remove the laminated print. Trim the excess. Done. Then, you can proceed to mount onto the plexi.

If you havent done this before, a visual is very helpful. Drytac has some videos which show the technique on their website.
 
Hi, Bruce. For threads that you began, an easy way to find them is to go to your personal page. You can do so by going up to the top of your screen and clicking on your highlighted name (to the left of the 'notifications' sign). Once on your page, under your avatar on the left side, one of the options will be 'find started threads'. Click that and it'll bring up every one you've started.
 
I have 2 questions. Why is it necessary to laminate the prints first? If you frame a picture with Plexi using a wood or aluminum frame, do you laminate first?
Second question is any suggestions for an aggressive adhesive to use instead of the 3M PMA? Can 3/16" Plexi size 32x44 go inside a Seal vaccum press without damaging the press?
Thanks for all your help.
 
The 3/16" acrylic can go in the press the same as gator board. You may want to lay a larger sheet of mat board under it to be sure the corners don't dig into the bladder.

Since you are mounting on the top side of the acrylic the laminate offers some protection for the photo. If scratching and aging are not a concern the photo does not need laminate but it is the same as framing without glass. We are assuming there is no acrylic covering the top side of the photo.

Is your final piece one piece of acylic behind the art or one on top and one behind.
 
There are 2 pieces of Plexi both 3/16". We mount on one and then put the other piece on top. The customer installs the art to the wall using hardware we provide.
Thanks.
 
Before I try to put the Plexi in the press, do you think the weight is a problem? 3/16" Plexi size 32x44 is much heavier than gator.
Thanks,
Bruce
 
Weight is not an issue. Now that you have described using 2 pieces of plex that eliminates any laminate. Those responding were concerned because the desription of the job did not include a piece covering the artwork.
 
Yeah...if I had KNOWN that you were putting another sheet of plexi on top, I wouldn't have told you about laminating the piece and then you wouldn't have been trying to figure out how to do that.

Giving us ALL of the info at the front of the posting allows us to give you the right info for the job without wasting anyones time.
 
Sorry I thought I had described this correctly. I learned a lot from you all about laminating which is great. Thank you. I will be practicing.
Bruce
 
Bruce, feel free to let us know how this project turns out.
 
I tested dry-mounting prints on 1/8" Plexi. I had no problems. Then I tested the 3/16" Plexi and the mounting worked perfectly. It's a lot easier and cheaper than using PMA adhesive. From what you guys told me spraying and PMA are not reliable. The only slight problem I have had with dry-mounting in a press is that the Plexi gets really hot and it tends to have a slight bow to it. Then we have 1 piece with a bow to it and the 2nd piece (that goes on top of the art) without the bow. I might try heating up both pieces of Plexi.
I haven't tried the large Plexi yet (32x44).
 
When you take the plexi out of the press, you need to put it on a flat table and weight it till it is cool. It should be flat by then.

I have a double thick piece of masonite that I put on anything that comes out of the press and then I can also add weight using various heavy things around the store.
Experiment with doing this as well and you'll have it!!:thumbsup::thumbsup::beer::beer:
 
We use the weight for foam core. I didn't think Plexi needed it or that the weight would help.
I also used permanent non-reversible dry-mounting tissue.

It's snowing in Philadelphia!
 
Hazany said:
We use the weight for foam core. I didn't think Plexi needed it or that the weight would help.
I also used permanent non-reversible dry-mounting tissue.

It's snowing in Philadelphia!
Click to expand...

Well... THERE'S your problem.. don't let the snow get on the plexi and you'll be fine!! :shutup:


As long as the substrate you are gluing onto is flexible, it will bend after gluing with heat, thus you need to weight it till cool. :thumbsup:
 
Hazany said:
... The only slight problem I have had with dry-mounting in a press is that the Plexi gets really hot and it tends to have a slight bow to it... I might try heating up both pieces of Plexi...
Click to expand...

There is a reason why acrylic (the generic term for Plexiglass brand, the material you call plexi) is not generally used with heat-activated adhesives. That type of plastic does not respond well to heat. Its chemistry changes and it becomes brittle. Note that some acrylic fabricators use a flame to smooth the bonded edges of their acrylic fabrications. But some time later, perhaps a few months or years, the once-heated edges crack and craze like crazy.

If you could dry mount at some temperature below 150F and keep the dwell time short enough to avoid penetrating the plastic sheet, it might be OK, but that dry mount would fail for lack of bonding strength, due to insufficient heat and dwell time.

When Len Lastuck comes up with a dry mount adhesive that would work at about 130F degrees in about 10 seconds, dry mounting will never be the same. for one thing, you could do it with a hair dryer.
:icon9:
 
Jim,

This is bad news because the place I buy the Plexi from uses a flame to polish the edges and give them a smooth see thru look. We have already shipped hundreds of these pictures. A few times early on we sanded the edges and achieved good results but I pay more to have the edges polished. As far as dry-mounting on the Plexi, I did a few last night with good results but I used 190 degrees and 6 minutes. I have a lot more to do.

Bruce
 
Your 6 minutes dwell time is extremely long. At 190 you must be using a film such as Fusion or an equivelent. I use the United brand version of this and use a dwell time of one or two minutes.

I have never seen the cracking described from flame smoothing of edges. If this were the case every retail display in the country would show the cracking described. All clothing stores use the displays and when was the last time you noticed cracking. Most acrylic boxes used in framing use the process as well. Also all bent acrylic is done by heating the acrylic to allow bending. I've used them for over 30 years and never had one returned due to defective processes.

Just sayin'.
 
I was thinking the same thing just now that all the thick Plexi shelves, table tops, all sort of bent acrylics are done the same way. I hope the fabricators know what they are doing.

I am using a tissue called drytac which is permanent. I run the press extra long because I have been using it for 20 years and I don't trust the temperature gauge and the timer. We have problems with large prints coming out with bubbles. This is especially true for Epson inkjet prints. Sometimes the bubbles appear after a few weeks! If this happens all we have to do is to place the print back in the press and heat it up a few minutes. The bubbles go away.
 
I'm printing with the Epson 9800 and have found the only time I find any bubbling issue is if the print wasn't allowed to dry properly. I do a lot of printing for students at the local college and they show up as late as a few minutes before the deadline to turn in the project. I've only had one bubble because it was a 40x60 that was a heavy solid color background. Only had about 20 minutes to allow for drying which was way too short for the high ink density.

I'm printing these on enhanced matte so you can look at the back side to see the drying progress. Most can be mounted in about 15 minutes but heavy ink coverage requires a minmum of 30-60 minutes.

If I were doing the job you have regardless of paper type I would print and lay brown craft paper over each print and allow 24 hours of dry time. The kraft paper will absorb the solvent as it evaporates. You can stack multiple prints like this. Give a few minutes between the time it comes off the printer and laying the kraft over it to be sure the ink isn't tacky before the kraft touches the surface.

Often times when printing large quantities people will print to roll rather than cut as you go. This slows the drying process since there is no air circulation.

Now as far as your press be sure you are pulling minimum 26" vacuum and better at 28". Considering the quantity you are doing this is the perfect time to look for a deal on a brand spanking new press. Equipment is selling slowly for manufacturers so there are people that will treat you right on the price. There are also a lot of very lightly used presses out there right now. The average frame shop is very low volume for these presses. They are made to be used all day every day but many frame shops only turn them on once or twice a week.
 
You might also consider cooling between 2 pieces of 1/4" glass with polished edges for safety. I would have one sheet cut one inch shorter than the other front to back. Fasten a 2x4 to the table at the back edge as a backstop and the longer piece on top will hang one inch forward of the bottom for easy lifting. The 2 pieces of glass will allow for very quick cooling. If the bottom piece is elevated by laying on 1x2's or whatever is handy there will be air circulation below so there is no retained heat. Most bubbling occurs during the cooling process.
 
Jeff,
Thanks so much for all the advice. We also have an EPSON 9800. We are printing these pictures on EPSON premium luster (semi-gloss). We print on rolls of 24" and 44" (no cut sheets). They feel completely dry immediately but I will do what you said as far as cooling.

Have you had any problems with the paper yellowing after a while? We had to switch to EPSON brand paper because of yellowing. That brand was called Brilliant by Calumet. I was told perhaps we shouldn't use heat which is not practical. I can talk about the details in length but I won't take your time now.

Do you think the new presses are worth the price? Will they be much better than the old one? Also how do you check the vacuum 26 or 28?
 
why can you not just cold press the print onto acrylic

as for edge polishing, get them diamond polished or laser cut

both will provide a similar finish to flame polishing without the downsides
 
Your press should have a vacuum gauge installed on it. If not get one of these from any one of a million sources and use a T connector to add it to the line from the pump. It needs to go to 30 inches of mercury against gravity. These gauges replicate a glass tube in a U shape that is filled with mercury and a tube from the pump is attached to one end. The vacuum pulls the mercury up against gravity with a ruler behind the glass tube showing the height that the mercury reaches. I've only been involved in making a scientific gauge once but not worth replicating since the gauges are pretty accurate for less than $20.


http://www.amazon.com/Sunpro-CP7978..._6?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1320008130&sr=1-6

New presses are well worth the money considering you can sell the old one and many sources will offer a great price on a newly manufactured unit since they are selling slowly right now. You also have the income stream from this job that will easily cover the cost.
 
Thank you all for helping out with this.
I will find out about the vacuum gauge and diamond cutting.
We were cold mounting using sprays or PMA but the dry-mounting is a lot cheaper, faster and more reliable. How would you cold press?
Looking at the website from Dublin, It seems to me that the best way to do this job is to face mount on 1/2" thick Plexi instead of putting the picture between 2 pieces of 3/16" Plexi which flex too much and dust gets inside. However I don't think face mounting is economical for this job. It also seems difficult.
 
Jeff Rodier said:
...I have never seen the cracking described from flame smoothing of edges. If this were the case every retail display in the country would show the cracking described.
Click to expand...

Well, not every display. Only the ones where too much heat has been applied. Obviously, more heat means faster deterioration, and very careful application of low heat might not show up for years.

I stopped at Bob Evans this morning for a coffee, and snapped these pics with my cell phone. You've never seen crazing similar to the display case in these photos?
 

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I just spoke to the Plexi fabricator here in Philadelphia.
He said that what they call "crazing" is common (cracks shown in Jim's photos) and it only happens if something that has already been polished once gets cut down and redone or if someone sands an edge that has already been flame polished. He said the ones they do for me should be fine.
 
Hazany said:
I just spoke to the Plexi fabricator here in Philadelphia... He said the ones they do for me should be fine.
Click to expand...

Of course he did. If he knew of the problem, he probably wouldn't do it. And he probably would say he's never had one come back, too. The display case in my photos probably will never go back to its fabricator, either.

...He said that what they call "crazing" is common (cracks shown in Jim's photos) and it only happens if something that has already been polished once gets cut down and redone or if someone sands an edge that has already been flame polished.
Click to expand...

Is your fabricator talking about recycling previously-used acrylic? Maybe he thinks that is common, but it probably doesn't apply here. The acrylic display cases in dozens of Bob Evans Restaurants surely were built out of new acrylic by a professional fabricator, and most likely in considerable quantities. Those display cases probably were not cut down, redone, or sanded after the flame polishing.

There's no need to take my word about the deterioration caused by flame-polishing, but you might want to investigate further. For starters, you could check with the two best & biggest acrylic fabricators in the framing industry, Gemini Moulding/Showcase Acrylics in Elgin, IL and Superior Acrylic Framing in Riverside, CA.

Or just take your fabricator's assurance. Did he guarantee it won't happen to his work?
 
Jim, you are in a position to drive over and speak to one of the largest if not the largest manufacturer of acrylic in the world. Plaskolite is about 20 miles from you and would be the best source for the most detailed information anywhere.

It would make for some great articles and even some education courses. They have recently purchased some other well known brand companies so the information would be first hand without any processor interjection as well. In the past and most likely still make all of the displays for the Limited and all of thier other brand stores.
 
Jeff Rodier said:
Plaskolite is about 20 miles from you and would be the best source for the most detailed information anywhere.
Click to expand...

The harm of flame-polishing is well known, Jeff. The photos I posted this morning show a classic example of the deterioration. The largest supplier of acrylic in the framing industry is Evonic, aka CYRO, which sells the Acrylite brand. They also provide most of the acrylic used by Tru Vue. The engineer who helped me outline my All About Acrylic class some years ago (now renamed) told me about the evils of flame-polishing. That sort of heat can be even more destructive to the plastic sheet's chemistry than alcohol or ammonia commonly found in glass cleaners.

Plaskolite is a manufacturer of plastic sheeting. I used to work with them years ago, before I got into framing. As far as I know, they leave the fabrication work to their primary customers, acrylic fabricators, rather than competing with them. But you're right. They probably know as much about acrylic as CYRO/Evonic does.
 
From their website:


Uniting incredible strength with aesthetic beauty, acrylic is the material of choice for thousands of products in many industries.

Acrylic is a polymer created when giant carbon molecules combine chemically. Finished acrylic sheet exhibits glass-like qualities – clarity, brilliance, transparency, translucence – but at half the weight and up to 10 times the impact resistance. It can be tinted or colored, mirrored or made opaque. A number of coatings can be applied to a sheet or finished part for performance enhancing characteristics such as scratch resistance, anti-fogging, glare reduction and solar reflective.
Because it's a thermoplastic and softens under extremely high temperatures, acrylic can be formed to virtually any shape. Incredibly durable, acrylic is a suitable solution over a broad temperature range, and has superior weathering properties compared to other plastics.


Did you know they own Lucite. I think you should spend some time looking at their website. They also owned a fabrication division but may or may not have sold that.

More info here:

http://www.plaskolite.com/AboutAcrylics/HowItsFabricated

Some more info:

http://www.plaskolite.com/Fabrication

The website is chock full of actual information.
 
And here is where they discuss crazing due to overheating during flame polishing edges.

Flame Polishing


A hydrogen-oxygen torch, with a #4 or #5 tip, gently melts the sanded or machined edges of Plaskolite acrylic sheet, providing a smooth glossy look. Low line pressures create a torch flame that is 2-3” long, bluish, nearly invisible, and narrow enough to prevent overshooting onto the face of the acrylic sheet (See Fig. 12).
Remove the masking from the acrylic sheet, and guide the torch along the edge at a rate of approximately 3-4” per second. As with other cutting and machining processes, avoid excessive heat build up. Bubbles, stress, and crazing will occur if the flame is moved too slowly. Do not cement a flame polished edge.

http://www.plaskolite.com/Fabrication/Acrylic/Finishing
 
Jeff Rodier said:
... avoid excessive heat build up. Bubbles, stress, and crazing will occur if the flame is moved too slowly.
Click to expand...

And there's the problem.

If the person doing the flame-polishing doesn't do it perfectly, nobody knows until it's too late. Doing it right is a matter of skill and experience, and impossible to control in a production shop.

Many fabricators use mechanical edge finishing/polishing methods instead, which produce more consistently-good results and do not cause any risk of deterioration. However, that equipment costs more to acquire, operate, and maintain than a simple flame torch.
 
I have done a huge amount of flame polishing over the years Jim and you are right about the fact that it can be done wrong. My first couple dozen pieces were miserable failures and that is why they were done on scrap.

Any decent quality acrylic fabrication shop would never allow a novice to complete a customer's order. Bubbles are the first sign of a problem and crazing appears in short order. Flame polishing clears the cut edges of the grooves left by saw cuts.

Considering the quantity involved in this order why would we assume that some guy in a garage somewhere is preparing the acrylic prior to reaching the framer.

The heat from the press is not a problem as long as the dwell time is kept to a minmum. If there is a problem with the process it will become obvious very quickly.

Now as far as fabrication of acrylic, I was taught by Plaskolite's fabrication division. They had a facility at the plant where they were preparing the displays for the Limited at the time and they had stacks of thousands of units waiting to be delivered to the Limited's distribution center.
 
Thank you Jim and Jeff. I am picking up some of this polished Plexi today. I printed some of the comments you made to give to the fabricator.
Bruce
 
Jeff Rodier said:
Considering the quantity involved in this order why would we assume that some guy in a garage somewhere is preparing the acrylic prior to reaching the framer.
Click to expand...

"Some guy in a garage" probably did not build the display case I photographed at a Bob Evans Restaurant and posted here yesterday. That probably was one of dozens built by a major fabricator.
 
Hazany said:
Thank you Jim and Jeff. I am picking up some of this polished Plexi today. I printed some of the comments you made to give to the fabricator.
Bruce
Click to expand...

You might want to ask about his guarantee. If any of the acrylic pieces show crazing after six months or a year, what's your recourse?
 
Jim,

Thanks for warning me about this crazing issue. I am terrified about pictures developing problems. Most of them have been shipped to Canada, some to Australia and all over the US. I was worried about the mounting issues and now the crazing.
Bruce
 
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