I need to mount an oil painting that has been trimmed to the image. What adhesive would you use to mount it to masonite? Laminall or one of the fabric adhesives? Thanks for any suggestions.
Resolved Mount oil painting to masonite
- Thread starter Melinda Tennis
- Start date
The original poster indicated they have found a solution and that this topic has been RESOLVED / SOLVED
Mary Beth van der Horst
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
I'd probably use a fabric adhesive like Franks. That way, if one day it needs to be removed, a conservator can apply heat to soften the glue and remove it. Not sure if Laminall can do that. Similarly, perhaps you could use a heat reversible drymounting adhesive?
Curious, why Masonite? I know it has been used traditionally for mounting canvases, but it is pretty acidic, and the bonding agent has a lot of formaldehyde in it.
I think the traditional glue used was Rabbit Skin Glue, but that may have been on unpainted canvas.
I think the traditional glue used was Rabbit Skin Glue, but that may have been on unpainted canvas.
Laminall is a heat activated EVA adhesive. Therefore it can be considered a fabric adhesive. It can be reversed in the same way as BEVA by any conservator.
Are you planning on using a press, or some other method of application?
I would avoid anything heat activated, as heat can cause the oil paint to shift, or flatten.
I would avoid anything heat activated, as heat can cause the oil paint to shift, or flatten.
No heat, just clamp it in the drymount press, with release sheet and another piece of foam core on top. I think I'll use fabric adhesive, instead of Laminall. I have used Laminall, wet, with no heat. Just pressure.
I hadn't thought about the acidity. I'll prime it first.
I once mounted a tiny borderless acrylic on canvas with acrylic gel. Used an unheated vacuum press, then weighted it. I don't recall the substrate.
I've used PVA in the past. The key thing is to keep it under pressure until the glue has set.
Overnight usually. And use release paper + foam blanket + a heavy board on top with as
many heavy objects stacked on top. Books are handy. One thing to avoid is getting glue on
the face of the painting. Paste the mounting board not the canvas.
Essentially PVA is non-reversible, so only on things of 0 'importance' or with the artists permission.
Overnight usually. And use release paper + foam blanket + a heavy board on top with as
many heavy objects stacked on top. Books are handy. One thing to avoid is getting glue on
the face of the painting. Paste the mounting board not the canvas.
Essentially PVA is non-reversible, so only on things of 0 'importance' or with the artists permission.
Well, I decided to use Frank's fabric glue & gatorboard. Put it in the un-heated dry mount press, with release paper on both sides and an extra foam core on top and left it overnight. It looks fine. Thanks y'all for your suggestions.
My customer bought it at a flea market and wants a flea market price.
cwit
True Grumbler
You can buy Beva 371 film. It will sheets thepainting to the board, and is reversible and museum grade.
Would you consider mounting it to 8 ply rag board, or a substrate that is better than Masonite?
We have thousands of customers who use our Miracle Muck for just this purpose. As Prospero has noted PVA adhesives like Muck should be considered as permanent and should be weighted and kept flat while the moisture is evaporating but once Muck has "cured" (dried overnight) it is essentially inert, does not outgas and forms an effective barrier to the acidity within this substrate. Extensive testing done by Nielsen Bainbridge at their New Jersey lab and by Raphael's in a large variety of actual canvas/substrate combinations that are now over 40 years old without showing any deterioration in the canvas or the bond have confirmed Muck's suitability for this task. Muck is available online through the website raphaelsap.com
glamorsidhe
True Grumbler
Melinda, as an artist, I wouldn't prime but SIZE it: Priming is usually done with several (2-3) coats of acrylic polymer gesso as opposed to 1 coat of decent sizing (which seals the surface) prior to the actual priming itself. This isn't just artspeak. Acrylic gesso is basically acrylic medium + calcium carbonate + titanium white (usually) + water: As this acrylic gesso dries/cures, the water (H2O) evaporates (the hydrogen & oxygen separating) leaving tiny holes behind which in turn require a number of "coats" to cover properly. Sizing something, on the other hand, with say matte or glossy acrylic medium itself avoids this H2O separation (& the ensuing holes) as acrylic medium has no water. (Sizing can be accomplished with other "materials" as well. I'm just offering you one of the easier approaches to same.)
Word salad. You are doing the same thing no matter what you are calling the process. The result is a barrier between two separate layers.
glamorsidhe
True Grumbler
Not word salad. Sizing creates a 1-step barrier ..., whereas priming requires probably 3-4 applications with each prime dictating at least partial curing before the next coat --- extra time. And in a field where time is money ....
Sizing & priming are 2 separate processes, not simply different words for the same thing. The end result may be identical but the time required to achieve said result varies considerably. I value my time; I assumed Melinda would've valued hers.
glamorsidhe
True Grumbler
I personally have never used an 8 ply rag board (sounds nifty though) but the term "rag" is well known amongst artists & implies $$. As for a substrate superior to masonite & of a comparable price, why not 2 pieces/sheets of ordinary matboard (color irrelevant) super-well-glued together with PVA (wood) glue? The wood glue is only slitely acidic when wet, dries to a neutral pH level, & most importantly, stiffens the dual matboard thus produced (IF the wood glue covered virtually the entire surface betwixt the 2 sheets prior to bonding them together --- fabric or craft glues are not substitutable as they dry flexible). This dual matboard substrate also requires no barrier (sizing or priming) as it's non-acidic.
Whatever 4 ply mat you choose for a substrate, there is likely an 8 ply of the same and the cost will be roughly 2x the cost of the 4 ply so why go to the bother/time/mess of gluing 2 4 plys together that will cost about the same as an 8 ply of the same.
Sizing is not a gas impermeable barrier. Nor is primer or gesso (acrylic or traditional RSG).
The only things that qualify as gas impermeable barriers are metal and glass.
Osmosis will see to the gas migration through any barrier that is not impermeable.
The only things that qualify as gas impermeable barriers are metal and glass.
Osmosis will see to the gas migration through any barrier that is not impermeable.
glamorsidhe
True Grumbler
Reread my post: The wood glue stiffens the 2 4-ply matts into 1 8-ply "rigid-matboard" whilst an 8-ply matboard (or even a thicker one, if such exist) has the same flexibility characteristics as 1 or 2 or 3 4-plys placed together. My suggestion of the usage of the wood glue as described was to render the matboards as rigid as the masonite, otherwise I wouldn't have mentioned the procedure. I don't know about others, but for myself, a backboard's stiffness is a factor in its usage. If it isn't for you, than your comment is right on.
glamorsidhe
True Grumbler
So who's speaking of "a gas impermeable barrier"? By that reasoning, all art canvas sizing/priming/prepping should be abandoned, as usage of all paper-substrates with oil paints, etc.. And many art drawing materials as well that can't be applied to metal or glass. Try selling that argument to artists!
And this pertains to framers as well. Are they only to use metal or glass as backing (though aluminum for same sounds interesting ...)? Your reasoning requires specification or major amendment because as a generalization it dissolves into absurd applications.
I'll take your word for that.................albeit with a grain of salt. Until I can see it, I am dubious. Maybe I'll try it when I have some free time.
Problem with glue is that it's a fluid and can cause warping. I go with 8 ply any day
glamorsidhe
True Grumbler
You're ignoring the flexibility factor.
glamorsidhe
True Grumbler
Being an artist, I once required several drawing boards: a smaller for carrying around & use by supporting same against my knees whilst sitting, & a considerably larger for easel support in a manner similar to the way an easel holds a large canvas. The store sale items included metallic attachments for mechanical drawing which were useless & a direct hindrance via their attachments in freestyle drawing. Hence I decided to make my own.
My first attempts were simply to cut out drawing boards out of dual-laminated shelving material, basically laminated chipboard. The results were ok but not that good for carrying around. So ..., I decided to try (untreated) masonite as a drawing board material. Since all masonite, regardless of thickness, is too flexible for my intended usage, I needed to glue 2 1/8" or 3/16" thick masonite sheets cut-to-approximate-size from 4' x 8' pieces (Home Depot) together, both pieces glued checkerboard side to checkerboard side, with PVA wood glue as said glue dries rigid, non-flexible. Left overnite with diagonal corners secured against movement during curing & "stomped flat" prior to multiple weights on top during the curing period. This cured glue rigidity made the 2 masonite pieces glued with it equally rigid (approximately 2x stiffer than before gluing). Afterwards, I had Home Depot cut the fully cured piece to exact size. As for the larger drawing board, I glued 3 pieces of the thin masonite together (the 1 smooth side sanded rough for superior gluing). This 3-sheet piece (0.52"/13.2 mm thick) became fairly heavy but as rigid & stiff as a wooden table top! Once cut-to-size, sanding the sides bevelled to prevent hand cuts & slightly rounding the corners against clothing tears completed the drawing boards construction.
These masonite drawing boards were perfect for drawing free-style. The smaller one (0.24" thick) was stiff enough for knee supported drawing, & the larger I've already discussed.
Hence by inference, the masonite flexibility made 2x more rigid with wood glue, Titebond Regular Wood Glue to be precise, should do the same with matboard flexibility. I'm not claiming that the matboard will become as rigid as the masonite post-gluing, just that its rigidity will increase proportionately the same post its wood gluing. Wood glues dry stiffer than craft glues. That's a simple fact. And 2 matboard sheets wood-glued together, with ample glue securing virtually every inch area of the substrate, will render that substrate stiffer than simply a thicker version of that substrate non-glue processed.
A paper based lamination as in mat boards will never be as rigid as a high density fiber board such as a Masonite® product. The reason is the adhesives are in a rather thin layer of the entire thickness rather than being a 100% impregnated product. An unsized (100% impregnated)) sheet of paper is just not in the same league structurally.
Thanks, for clarifying this.
Because I would not want it to be flexible. I guess I am missing your point.
Fortunately, this thread was marked resolved quite some time ago
glamorsidhe
True Grumbler
Sorry, my bad. I hadn't thought it thru enough. You're absolutely right in what you say. Thanks for the clarification & explanation thereof. Much appreciated.
However, I still maintain that wood-gluing 2 4-ply matboards together will stiffen them more than 1 8-ply matboard as regards comparable rigidity --- just not as much as compared to the flexibility/rigidness of masonite.
(As a footnote to your above data, I believe that Masonite, the company, no longer manufactures masonite, the fiber board. The product is still made, by others, & technically exists by another generic name, but lumberyard personnel still refer to it by its original name, just as we label acetylsalicylic acid asperin even though Asperin is now not its only manufacturer.)
Also, something I'd forgotten because I haven't used the product in many, many years is illustration board, a much denser paper product than matboard, & it's available, though not openly advertised by the manufacturer, to a thickness of 1/8" (this I found in a customer comment on a recent visit to Blick Art Materials). This 1/8" thickness of said material was the standard thickness years ago (when I remember using it), but I guess they now have "standardized" its usual thickness to that comparable of matboard. Why not consider using illustation board in certain framings? It's more rigid than matboard, particularly its 1/8" variety.
glamorsidhe
True Grumbler
My point regarding flexibility was how to hopefully make something less flexible rather than more. But you're right. This thread was resolved years ago (but maybe still relevant to information-gatherers).
Maybe someone should do an experiment. I don't think the glue would add much to the rigidity of a paper board.
8-ply mats used to be made up from 4-ply mats when needed. 8-ply mats were not available as such until the last few decades.
Hugh Phibbs (former Head of Preservation at The National Gallery) related a story of spending a day making a couple gallons of wheat starch paste and applying it to 4-ply mats with low knap rollers then adding a second mat, stacking pair upon pair, until they had gone through a box or two of Rising boards (50 sheets per box creating 25 8-ply mats per box). A sheet of plywood was laid on top and weights were added.
I have done that as well as 12 and 16 ply mats for special projects. The boards do become increasingly stiff with each additional layer, but I don't think the nature of the adhesive, being in a very thin coat, adds any differential strength to the board, whether it be Elmer's, PVA Carpenter's glue, or starch paste.
Note: if you look at 4 or 8-ply edges under magnification you will see the layers that make up the thickness.
Hugh Phibbs (former Head of Preservation at The National Gallery) related a story of spending a day making a couple gallons of wheat starch paste and applying it to 4-ply mats with low knap rollers then adding a second mat, stacking pair upon pair, until they had gone through a box or two of Rising boards (50 sheets per box creating 25 8-ply mats per box). A sheet of plywood was laid on top and weights were added.
I have done that as well as 12 and 16 ply mats for special projects. The boards do become increasingly stiff with each additional layer, but I don't think the nature of the adhesive, being in a very thin coat, adds any differential strength to the board, whether it be Elmer's, PVA Carpenter's glue, or starch paste.
Note: if you look at 4 or 8-ply edges under magnification you will see the layers that make up the thickness.
I would think that 12 or 16 ply mats would be pretty tough to cut. On the occasions when I have needed extra-deep bevels, I have had good results cutting the top mat opening slightly larger, and then using the pinwheel-method to create the layers below until the desired thickness and inner dimensions are reached. From a decorative point of view, this technique also presents opportunities to alternate the colors or thicknesses of intermediate layers.
Here is an example:
Rick
Here is an example:
Rickglamorsidhe
True Grumbler
I think a rag board doesn't fit into flea market pricing.
It would add some rigidity, but with paper boards, the denser the material to begin with, the stiffer the post-glued effect. For example, wood-gluing 2 matboards together would stiffen the ensuing "double-matboard" less than using the same procedure with 2 illustration boards to produce a "double-illustration-board," ie, the dual-illustration-board would be more rigid than the dual-matboard (assuming herein as well that the 2 matboards & the 2 illustration boards were all of the same thicknesses to begin with). And 2 particle boards wood-glued together would rigidify more than wood-gluing any 2 paper boards.