CONSUMER ALERT Moulding offered to public at framer cost...

capylou

Grumbler in Training
Joined
Jun 27, 2009
Posts
1
It was brought to my attention by an artist/customer that there is an online co. offering Nielsen Mldg. at my cost and below. This artist would have purchased a large frame of Nielsen #117-03 from me however he was able to purchase it for less than my cost from the below website. I even offered a 40% discount from retail and it was still 2 times more than they sell to the public for. I have contacted Nielsen/Bainbridge through my rep and by E-mail. I called my rep several times only to be told that the co. was a large wholesaler of theirs and that he was unaware prior to this. Nielsen/Bainbridge did not reply and it has been about 2 weeks now. I also noticed that they carry Designer frames, but didn't compare the prices on those yet. Allowing this to propogate is further adding to the deterioration of sales in the retail sector of all custom frame shops. Check it out for yourself. You might also like to contact your reps. about this...

www.framingsupplies.com
 
Welcome to the Grumble.

You will get more of a response if you fill out your profile. We like to know whom we are communicating with.

The site that you mentioned tried to overcharge me in the past and I have had a couple bad dealings with him. (they renegged on buying back some equipment they sold me at a HUGE loss to me)

That said, you will find some on here with opposite situation.

Bob
 
Welcome to the G. It's very disheartening to see this kind of thing, yet it keeps popping up. It's the beginning of the end for retail custom framing IMO. Eventually all that will be left are a few framers who do very high end and complicated work.

Thank you to all our "loyal" suppliers out there that are back stabbing those of us who made them what they are today.
 
I had a photographer who would order the frames through them, then came here for the fitting, mat, design and so on. (He will not order mats on line as he is very specific in his color choice).

So yes, I loose the sale of the frame, but at least I can still offer the rest of the service. It has made me angry, but I don't see how small retailers can stop it or compete with it.

My shop is in a town with tons of artists. Most of them order frames on line and have me cut the mats and sometimes do the fitting / glazing.
My customers are the ones that buy the art and have it professionally reframed. Or the amateur artists, who create their art for their own pleasure and would like it to look even better.
 
One can only hope that his unscrupulous ways will come back to kick him in his "you know what" some day. Carma will prevail. Wait and see.
 
Decor Moulding has been selling to your customers for a couple decades now. They get the same sale flyer that is sent to the framers. In some cases quality counts for nothing. I have customers ask me to cut and join the frames for them. They have the choice of including all of the flaws or for $25 extra I'll cut around them. I tell them to just bring in 5 times the amount of moulding needed to get a clean frame.
 
It's a business decision for them. And it's a business decision for us not to carry their products anymore.

If they lose, say a few 100 thousand dollars due to our decisions, they may reconsider what's better for them, but until that happens nothing will change.
 
I don't carry metal unless it's a BIG project.

But don't forget that Nielsen is owned by Nurre Caxton (or vice versa). There are other ways to get at them beside metal frames.
 
We're selling service, not just frames

I know this sort of thing can be an annoyance, but what percentage of your business is *actually* being siphoned off by them? After all, they're selling the pieces but the customer still has to put the thing together. A certain percentage of customers are willing to do that work, but a lot more are happy to hand it off to a professional.

It's like oil changes... I can buy five quarts of 10W-30 and an oil filter at Pep Boys and do the work myself, or I can pop into Jiffy Lube and have it done for me. For many people the latter is worth the extra cost.

I just checked my own customer base... out of a couple hundred "regulars" I have *one* who buys all his frames from American Frame (who also sells retail near my wholesale) and assembles them himself. He still comes to me for digital printing, though...
 
Jim I underswtand what you are saying but how much more of the pie can we afford to relinquish. (sp?)

First the big boxes, then the internet, (on som level)LJ and now another suplier.

If each time someone takes a bigger bite of the pie we say " does it really effect you" and then give it up for lost, how long until the pie is on someone elses table and we are begging for the crumbs.

Bob
 
Hi, capylou. And welcome to the Grumble.

I figure there's about an eighty percent chance that you're someone from Larson Juhl, trying to point out the fact that this sort of thing already goes on in the industry. If not, and if you're somehow in that miraculous twenty percent, just an 'innocent byframer', making an open observation, then this is certainly the place to make it. Stick around. You'll like this place.

If you are from LJ, your point is well-heard. But it still feels differently having LJ pull this, even though other companies have already been doing very similar things for years. I've been thinking about this for the past couple days, even before your uncannily timed post. (Tired smile. Or maybe that should read 'cannily' instead.) :) Either way, I've been thinking about how Nielsen has sold directly to customers for years. One of my customers even has me choose the mats for her, and help her figure out which Nielsen metal to buy, then she buys it from the Daniel Smith catalogue. I know that might sound like shooting myself in the foot, but I have enough other people doing the whole thing here, and I feel like at least she's coming to me for mats. She also has me do a custom design on her best calligraphy pieces, the ones she wants
to keep for herself.

From what I understand, NC and Studio both sell at least portions of their moulding lines directly to the public, and I sure wish they didn't. Evidently, Decor does it, too, and who knows how many others. To LJ, it might seem a bit strange to see us flying into high dudgeon over something that others have already been doing for quite awhile. But it is different.

Larson Juhl has been an industry leader for so many years, and part of the reason they've built up such a loyal following is because they had absolute integrity in this regard. Not only have the products and service been great, but they've maintained a strong position of supporting independent custom frame shops by refusing to sell elsewhere. In the past few years, however, a sea change seems to have taken place. In the past, if I thought about how frustrating it was to have other companies sneak by us to our customers, I'd think, "That's part of why I'll always be true to Larson Juhl. They've taken a stand to support us and they won't do this kind thing." To have it happen now, while at the same time the company tries to pacify us by claiming that it isn't in fact happening, feels like the ultimate, "Et tu, Brute?" moment.

If this company has decided to throw us to the wolves and do a total about face, then the industry really has very little integrity left as far as the support it gives to us custom
framers. That's both bizarre and sad.

Does Roma still refuse to sell wholesale to the public? If so, I hope they start to get a lot more business. I know that, more and more, I admire whoever didn't buy Documounts first. Some decisions in life are a matter of doing what's right, and when people make honorable decisions, even though they might take a fall for so doing, they deserve our respect and support.

I still like LJ, but for the first time in sixteen years, that feeling is beginning to fade. I wish it wasn't. I'm saddened by this change of direction, and I keep hoping that somehow they'll decide to do what's right on this one. Or at the very least, to be honest about it instead of pretending that they haven't changed their fundamental values. If they really do plan to stay true to those values, then it should be easy to make the changes to the Documounts site that would make it not available to the general public. And they should have already been made.

I'll hush up now, but that's why it feels different. It's because we trusted Larson Juhl on this one, and what's happening now feels like a betrayal. If anyone's still reading, thanks for taking the time. I know I'm not a person with clout in this industry. I'm just an ordinary small town framer, but isn't that what the industry is made of? And at least here on the Grumble, we have a place to be heard.
 
I am really starting to feel sorry for that dead horse over there.
 
LOL.... and I must seem like one of the flies circling it's head.
True that, Tim. But it's just so disappointing that this has
happened at all. Especially to those of us in the Pacific Northwest.
I still think it's about eighty percent that's who posted this,
and that's why I added my two cents.

How 'bout this. I won't post anymore on this thread about that
topic. Can't promise it on the other thread, but will do so here
for you. Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go see if I can
manage to drag my saddle out from under the carcass. :)
 
Not to start anything,But The store that runs framingsupplies.com has been selling at the same locale since the 70`S......Just sayin. L.
 
The bigger problem...

Not to start anything,But The store that runs framingsupplies.com has been selling at the same locale since the 70`S......Just sayin. L.

Laura,

To the points made in a similar discussion...

Just because the Internet exists does not mean that the "rules of business edict" no longer apply.

These folks have based their business on selling supplies to the trade, like an M&M and United Mfrs. Now they take one of their product lines and sell it directly to the public at near or what we pay for it.

"We don't get many complaints about this" is also not an excuse, as most framers are simply unaware as they go about their business with no thought that they might be blind-sided.

One of our key gift suppliers, puts selling parameters on what we can do and can't do, and I believe that Nielsen-Bainbridge probably placed these parameters on their distributors regardless of written or implied.

I think a letter to N-B is in order as the burden might fall on them rather than Framing Supplies.

Those retail framers that think these isolated incidents will not impact their business sales or business image, don't see the big picture.

John
 
No matter what we like...or don't like... a company has a right to sell whatever they want to whomever they want.

Likewise, we can't make customers buy from us instead of people offering it for a penny less.

In these hard times, everyone is doing what they have to do to survive. I just wish it wasn't becoming so dog-eat-dog.

We only have the right to not support it by not supporting their suppliers...

Telling your supplier you have a problem with it is about the only thing we can do. But I really, really hope you have enough sales figures to justify your sudden slope in sales of their product. Otherwise, its really not a substantiated complaint.

I agree with John and others, however, when I say that practices like these ARE impacting our industry.

From a supplier point of view, they're simply selling items to someone wholesale (and their customer has to prove those credentials). I'm not even sure that legally they have a right refuse sale to someone acting outside of industry norms as long as the bills are paid on time.

It's something we can't control people....sorry.

I'd love to see a direct to wholesale only certification from suppliers, wouldn't you?
 
puts selling parameters on what we can do and can't do, and I believe that Nielsen-Bainbridge probably placed these parameters on their distributors regardless of written or implied.
John

Not for N&B, it's sell as much as you can to whoever you can*. Framing Supplies.com is a distributor, but could buy better if they were an OEM then they could "cherry pick" the line and get better than distributor pricing. Distributors stock 95% + of the entire line.

*This is standard for 99% of the industry manufactures.
 
Laura,

To the points made in a similar discussion...

Just because the Internet exists does not mean that the "rules of business edict" no longer apply.

These folks have based their business on selling supplies to the trade, like an M&M and United Mfrs. Now they take one of their product lines and sell it directly to the public at near or what we pay for it.

"We don't get many complaints about this" is also not an excuse, as most framers are simply unaware as they go about their business with no thought that they might be blind-sided.

One of our key gift suppliers, puts selling parameters on what we can do and can't do, and I believe that Nielsen-Bainbridge probably placed these parameters on their distributors regardless of written or implied.

I think a letter to N-B is in order as the burden might fall on them rather than Framing Supplies.

Those retail framers that think these isolated incidents will not impact their business sales or business image, don't see the big picture.

John
Not what I meant,really.I am saying,I bet that they had these prices/policies way longer than the internet,just not as noticeable,that`s all....BTW,I do use them for some things...GREAT prices on some stuff! L.
 
I came down on the other side of this one from Bob a looong time ago. framingsupplies.com has always been good by me.
 
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