Moulding knock-offs

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gemsmom

gemsmom

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Joined
Oct 10, 2000
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3,576
What are your feelings about knock-off mouldings? I sell Roma and Larson, and I have sold LaMarche and I get really annoyed when I see them knocked off by low-end moulding companies. I will admit some of the stuff looks pretty good, but I decided I won't sell it. I had a couple of salesmen in my store the other day proudly showing me all their Larson and Roma rip-offs and informing me that Roma has threatened to sue them. I hope they do, and I hope they win.
 
I haven't dealt with any of these but I think they would make me very nervous. If Larson is having trouble keeping their finishes consistant, what are the knock offs going to look like a year from now? Kit
 
My view on this is a little different. Donkey years ago when in another industry, the "inventors" of floor plans knew that they couldn't keep competitors from copying. Indeed, some of them knew that they had themselves copied--consciously or not--from earlier prints. Seems to me it's the same with modern-day profile and finish designers. I don't think creativity can be copyrighted, and some of the mouldings about which we're speaking were actually picked up from earlier ones. But who's to say who was first?

After speaking with a high mucky-muck in a high mucky-muck company about this, he allowed as how they feel virtually the same, and know that they might be knocked-off within eight months of a successful launch. It didn't seem to bother him. I sympathize in some ways, and in others figure that it's just hardtack business.

Re the finishes, the knock-offs could quite possibly use the same types of companies as do the originators. LJ changed finishers on their Florentina line and the result produced an agonized outcry. If a well-placed firm such as they fall prey to either the siren song of cheaper production or the need to control quality from a different plant, should we expect more or less from the middle road guy? I guess I look at it as a better-mouse-trap argument.

But, my mind is unfortunately fluid, so would love to hear more about this.
 
I understand what you are saying, but I work really hard at offering my customers quality mouldings that are (hopefully) different from what they will find at other framers in the area. I can't help but feel dismayed when a salesman walks into my store and shows me a moulding Mrs.So-and-So paid $20.00 a foot a few weeks earlier that I could now sell her for a fraction of that price. Wouldn't it be nice if the moulding companies could have some way of protecting their original designs and finishes? My not buying these knock-offs and supporting those companies that blatantly copy others is just my little protest and won't amount to a hill of beans in the overall scheme of things. But it does make me feel better.
 
See also my thread on moulding knock-offs dated September 14th.
I don't have much of a problem promoting knock-off moulding. I see no difference with that and the common practice of copying products and marketed ideas. Whether you like it or not, most of what you buy out there is a knock-off of something else.
As framers, we see nifty designs out there and try to duplicate them in our own shops. Are we worried about giving credit to the gallery we originally saw it in? Not!
Most moulding knock-offs are not copied right away and even then, you can usually tell the quality difference.
I have seen an almost identical line between two major U.S. suppliers and I really don't care who copied whom.

------------------
Lisa Kozokowsky C.G.A.H.
Frameswest Inc.
 
Pam,
I admire your brand and quality loyalty and determination. Unfortunately, the whole frame industry is running on such practices and, stealing design ideas is water under the bridge for all its players.
It's very hard, next to impossible to legally protect a design. The creator needs to prove his design being original (!) too. I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing that big manufactures like LJ, Roma or LaMarche dont spend their time and money with protecting their original (?) designs since any Brazilian or Indonesian molding fabricant can alter a minute detail in those original moldings and hence be off the hook.
I am for highest quality and finest design in framing too but, as much as I hate to say it, resisting knock offs, regardless of their real quality and price merits, is not a profitable business taking. Your said that some knock offs were quite good looking. In this terms, if your competitors will buy faked LJ and sell it cheaper, I am afraid that this is the only thing most costumers will ever remember.
LJ, Roma and LaMarche are mass fabricants of molding of fairly good quality. But their products are of no collectible value and the resulting frames will never undergo any restoration when they'll get damaged in the future. To love their molding may be understandable, devoting yourself to their product and service is debatable. Keep an eye out for new comers. Some time ago LJ, Roma and LaMarche were new comers too. Do I make any sense?
 
I hate to say this, but the bottom line is this. If you can get a job by saving the customer some money you're gonna do it. If the guy down the street is selling a similar moulding for less,that's where they're going to go. I'm afraid most customers aren't as loyal to you as you are to those companies. I am not really a bitter old hag! But I had a customer come to me because they could save $8.00 over going to someone else.(I'm sure she spent that much in gas running around getting estimates.)
 
We've got both high-end (relatively) stuff and knock-offs and somehow they manage to coexist.

One big selling point for me for higher-quality moulding lines "has been" finish compatibility. I guess I won't use that anymore, and with that goes some of the reason to support those lines, much as I like using them.

I can't help but think that we're splitting a mighty fine hair here, and I don't want to offend your principles, Pam, because you should do what you think is right. When I compare a several-hundred-dollar-per-foot handcarved masterpiece with a machine-manufactured line from any modern company, the whole point seems kind of moot to me.
 
I don't understand the brand loyalty issues. We are a moulding manufacturer. We used to supply to the largest distributor(you know who) for over 15 years. When they decided to switch to a different vendor. It was devastated to us because 90% of our capacity was taken by them. We suspect the main reason they switched was because the new vendor is paying the one of the high ranking guys under table. We had to start from scratch. Now we sell to several smaller distributores. We created many of their items for them. Now you can buy them from distributors for much less(because they mark up too much). Would you still consider the them knock offs?
 
I try to design the best possible framing to fit the customer's needs and their wallet. I'll use whatever moulding that works including knock-offs to achieve the customer's desires. Sometimes this leeds to several mouldings from different companies stacked. Whatever is takes. Have a great day
 
Wow, pk5..... that's a powerful piece of information. I for one had figured that the larger manufacturers were vertically integrated because they'd have the critical mass to pull it off.

Definite food for thought and a welcome point. If big guys are subbing out their lines, what's a knock-off and what isn't?
This is really a recondite issue with a lot of obscure facts, it seems.
 
Yep, our industry is full of "knock-off" mouldings. It isn't like piracy; it's more like a standard practice. I'm OK with that.

Cost is a big issue in this conversation, and the main reason most of us would consider buying knock-offs, right?

Before I would buy a knock-off, I go to my main supplier of the item and make an offer of price similar to the knock-off, assuming quality is similar. More often than not, we can come to terms favorable to both of us -- I get a lower price, and the supplier gets new business.
 
Jim unveiled a whole new dimension of it!!
That means
1.leading brands are heavily overpriced
2.imitators know it full well and this is the reason for them being in business and having a market
Being brand loyal in such conditions reminds me of Hillary Clinton's complex.
 
I tend to feel that customers don't care much what brand their moulding is. It's not like brand-awareness with clothing where labels like "Tommy" and "Nike" are prominant. A customer has no clue (generally)about frame manufacturers; as far as they are concerned, "My Frame Shop" made it.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by amanda:
A customer has no clue (generally)about frame manufacturers; as far as they are concerned, "My Frame Shop" made it. [/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I am afraid that you are absolutely right. Being into Munn, (need to take a breath and then continue
smile.gif
),.... LJ or Roma is just an in-house parlance telling connoisseurs of your standards or aspirations. A user of Roma molding would envy a framer fellow able to sell LJ and both would want to have clients willing and able to pay for Munn's piece of work.
BTW, have you noticed that Mun's catalog is sold for $249? Perhaps their catalog is overpriced too
smile.gif
 
Yeah, and remember when the U.S. government paid something like $100 for a toilet seat.
 
The smaller manufacture are not the only ones doing knockoffs, being loyal to LJ I wanted to only buy from them I had a chance to price out a large job and found a moulding from another company that worked better then any of larsons mouldings. So I went to my rep and asked if they would have a mouldings to compare, they did not but I was told that if I was ordering large amounts of this mouldings then LJ could make it for me for the same cost.
 
Sometimes other suppliers will have identical mouldings that are not necessarily knockoffs but are bought from the same manufacturing source. My company has a line that is identical in every visible way to one sold by one of the companies mentioned in this thread. Our prices, however, are considerably lower. Ranging from 8% to 93% on chop prices alone. Sometimes you don't pay for what you get...you pay for the name you are buying it from.
 
This is an interesting topic, but for me the discussion misses what I feel is the main problem with knockoffs: If every company is producing copies of everyone else, no one is producing anything NEW AND INTERESTING. I am very weary of the trend of the last 5 years or so which has companies producing "collections" which are essentially the same style, but in two or three widths and six or eight different colors. IT'S STILL JUST ONE STYLE! We try to find suppliers with some individuality. We like mouldings with either classic or unusual designs, but unique. Maybe it would come in one gold and one silver. Or one narrow and one wide. Not ten different shades of gold or five different widths. First of all we don't need that fine a degree of choice within one style. Second, we couldn't possible hang all the samples. (It takes too much space, it's redundant, and it only confuses customers.) Third, it ties up the warehouse capacity and financial resources of distributors to stock all this repetitious stuff, and crowds out their ability to carry the one-off unique styles which become our old stand-bys and on which we can reliably depend to fulfill certain specific design goals. Fortunately, we have a couple of long-term suppliers who have pretty much stayed away from the "collections" trend.
Anyone else feel this way?
;) Rick
 
Rick,

Short of being able to design and produce from scrap any frame, as needs occur (I am coming from such now extinct school of framing), a modern framer must be happy to have a large selection of related moldings to choose from.
Same idea behind computers' rich fonts and ability to calculate. We may be giving away the pain of computing and learning calligraphy or right spelling, but then we need to be given one click replacements in exchange. Our writings are no longer crafted and personalized but our spirit is yet living and pulling through.
You don't need to display redundant molding but be happy to have a solution when work (or client) is asking for a narrower, wider, lighter or darker, reddish or bluish, softer or crispier "same molding".

I agree with you that there is much about nothing going on in the industry when it comes to new molding design. It's more like Goddess mentioned: "Lately white [any other color] moldings are up or down..." Most big manufacturers are more and more emphatically competing in trend making and service providing. Have you seen Ford or GM offer driving schools? Well, big molding manufacturers do offer to teach framers how to frame!

[This message has been edited by Frame Harbor (edited February 24, 2001).]
 
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