Oh how I wish our vendors would pay more attention to their moulding! There is such a lack of quality control with some of them! They should keep a sample at all times of what they've sent out to their customers. If a new batch comes in, they need to immediately send a new sample! We should not have to contact our customer and try to smooth it over or have them come in to pick out a new moulding when what we ordered doesn't match what they chose. I'm soooo frustrated right now - can you tell????
Moulding Corner Samples
- Thread starter Janis
- Start date
FrameMakers
PFG, Picture Framing God
Janis, expect quite a bit of this for the upcoming future. A large moulding manufacture recently went out of business leaving many of our suppliers scrambling to find new manufactures to copy their patterns. Some of these will be quite close, while others will be more like what you are dealing with. Our vendors are between a rock and a hard place.
As to the suppliers sending out new samples, that just isn't practical. First they would have to know what samples that you have. Next comes the cost of all those samples. A large company might be able to do this, but most of our vendors could not handle the costs of replacing samples for a large part of their lines to all their customers at one.
Now an honest notifications about what is going on in the industry would have been welcome.
As to the suppliers sending out new samples, that just isn't practical. First they would have to know what samples that you have. Next comes the cost of all those samples. A large company might be able to do this, but most of our vendors could not handle the costs of replacing samples for a large part of their lines to all their customers at one.
Now an honest notifications about what is going on in the industry would have been welcome.
Been there, and I know what you mean. We do order in small chips of variable mouldings
to check current stock, but even then, sometimes it varies widely. The trend your post
brings to mind, though, is that of a company switching vendors (and in transit, changing
the profile and finish of a moulding significantly) without notifying customers. One of our
otherwise fantastic, longtime suppliers has done this, and it just fries my lizards. Go to
design something to match a previous frame, or worse yet, as part of a stack, and find
out that the 'same' moulding is now an eighth of an inch narrower (or wider, or taller),
and has a gold lip.
to check current stock, but even then, sometimes it varies widely. The trend your post
brings to mind, though, is that of a company switching vendors (and in transit, changing
the profile and finish of a moulding significantly) without notifying customers. One of our
otherwise fantastic, longtime suppliers has done this, and it just fries my lizards. Go to
design something to match a previous frame, or worse yet, as part of a stack, and find
out that the 'same' moulding is now an eighth of an inch narrower (or wider, or taller),
and has a gold lip.
P.S. Or, as Studio did in the past couple years, we'd find the hard ramins replaced
by super soft, 'carve it with your fingernail', butterwood* frames. I'm all for saving
the orangutans, but being sent one** (and with a different colored finish) rather than the
other, was quite a shock. If suppliers would inform their customers and do switch outs,
it sure would save some tooth gnashing.
Rawr.
Over and out.
P.S. I hope your day gets better. :smiley:
*Don't look that term up. I just said it for swank, but it fits.
**A frame, not an orangutan
by super soft, 'carve it with your fingernail', butterwood* frames. I'm all for saving
the orangutans, but being sent one** (and with a different colored finish) rather than the
other, was quite a shock. If suppliers would inform their customers and do switch outs,
it sure would save some tooth gnashing.
Rawr.
Over and out.
P.S. I hope your day gets better. :smiley:
*Don't look that term up. I just said it for swank, but it fits.
**A frame, not an orangutan
Jeff Rodier
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
It will become easier to control in the coming year since the suppliers will begin charging for corner samples. Right now the industry is seeing huge changes in finishes since most of the manufacturers have had to find new sources for a very large percentage of their moulding lines.
The never ending problem is how should they decide who gets new samples. Corner samples eat millions of dollars of cash for single suppliers. Right now if they all just sent out the new samples with the current finish it would wipe out quite a few suppliers.
The never ending problem is how should they decide who gets new samples. Corner samples eat millions of dollars of cash for single suppliers. Right now if they all just sent out the new samples with the current finish it would wipe out quite a few suppliers.
Pat Murphey
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Although it can be frustrating, I do understand that this is an impossible request to make of our suppliers. However, the few times it has happened to me, the supplier was quick to solve the problem (in one case, I got the moulding for free and passed that discount on to the customer who was very impressed with that).
I have a few samples on the wall, where I know the stick I'll get in will be different. I save chips of those, to show the customers how much variation there can be. (and no, I don't want to pull the samples since they do sell well)
Also, I don't know about your customers, but mine usually cannot tell the difference in most cases and in a few cases, my customer liked the variation better or simply didn't care.
Good luck!
I have a few samples on the wall, where I know the stick I'll get in will be different. I save chips of those, to show the customers how much variation there can be. (and no, I don't want to pull the samples since they do sell well)
Also, I don't know about your customers, but mine usually cannot tell the difference in most cases and in a few cases, my customer liked the variation better or simply didn't care.
Good luck!
Grey Owl
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Out of interest, where was this manufacturer located?
Jeff Rodier
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Indonesia and was the largest producer in the world as I've been told.
Bruce Papier
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
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There's nothing concerns me more than this subject. It's going to ruin us all. The aspect that really gets to me is the "$&% rolls downhill" attitude. Our suppliers imply it's out of their control. Well, whose control is it under? Ours? We're the ones left holding the bag in the end when our customers aren't happy, but I don't think we have the option of calling Indonesia to complain and I don't think our customers feel like hounding our suppliers to get the frame they want.
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Don't get me started....AGAIN!!!
Jeff Rodier
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Most of the suppliers are trying to ease framers onto the price increases they must pass along. They will be selling at lower profit margins as they creep the prices up to where they need to be for them to survive. If they had to send out new corner samples on 25%-50% of their lines prices would double immediately. Most suppliers will be selling corner samples in the near future to keep prices as low as possible but prices are going up drastically. I always make my own corner samples from the boxes of moulding I purchase which guarantees the moulding always matches the samples.
Bruce Papier
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
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Here's my point: at some point the large wholesalers are going to have to send someone to camp out at the factories producing the moulding until the moulding is up to spec. It's incredibly wasteful of time, effort, wood, and everything else to keep making an inconsistant product. The flaws have to caught at the factory, not in the retail stores.
That works for your business model, Jeff. But it doesn't work for mine. I can't afford to buy boxes of every moulding sample I want to offer my customers. And I can tolerate slight variances, but not blatantly obvious differences.
And I can understand the cost to the vendor to send updated corner samples. Maybe my ignorance will show, but why is it such a problem to be consistent with the moulding?
Jeff Rodier
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
The big problem right now is the largest factory in the world went under so all vendors are buying from new sources since spring. This represents a huge percentage of the corner samples on all framers walls in the U.S. so there is no way they can afford to change all the corners out.
The factory went under because they needed to get as much as double what they had been charging for their mouldings to stay alive. The devaluation of the dollar played a large part of the need for price increases. Framers and consumers have also migrated to the low end mouldings so the mix of higher priced items shifted to a point where there was no way to make the numbers work without massive price increases.
Since I am paying distributor's prices for moulding I have seen how this can effect prices at the chop customer's level. Using normal mark ups at each level of the food chain it can jump the price of a chop on a simple item by $3-$5 per foot at retail. Many of the economy mouldings will see the largest jumps or the quality will drop off drastically.
Stocking moulding does not require full box purchases. Mixed boxes of moulding can add up to huge discounts and most framers would be surprised to find they could stock moulding for about what they spend in chops on a monthly basis. Once vendors start charging for corner samples again I think we will see a lot of shops eliminate the duplication they have in the mix now. The framing industry is about to go through a period of sticker shock that will rattle out a lot of shops in all states.
The factory went under because they needed to get as much as double what they had been charging for their mouldings to stay alive. The devaluation of the dollar played a large part of the need for price increases. Framers and consumers have also migrated to the low end mouldings so the mix of higher priced items shifted to a point where there was no way to make the numbers work without massive price increases.
Since I am paying distributor's prices for moulding I have seen how this can effect prices at the chop customer's level. Using normal mark ups at each level of the food chain it can jump the price of a chop on a simple item by $3-$5 per foot at retail. Many of the economy mouldings will see the largest jumps or the quality will drop off drastically.
Stocking moulding does not require full box purchases. Mixed boxes of moulding can add up to huge discounts and most framers would be surprised to find they could stock moulding for about what they spend in chops on a monthly basis. Once vendors start charging for corner samples again I think we will see a lot of shops eliminate the duplication they have in the mix now. The framing industry is about to go through a period of sticker shock that will rattle out a lot of shops in all states.
cjmst3k
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But even if you buy some moulding (lets say 100') of each moulding, it doesn't mean that the next 100' will look like the sample you made from the first. I'm running into this with a few Disco's from our mutual supplier. Even the same 100' can have gigantic variances that make them completely different. Though I would venture a guess that buying an intact box of moulding (unopened) would probably make the sample accurate to at least that box.
Jeff Rodier
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Full boxes do assure matches. Keep in mind that every supplier is using new sources for a huge portion of their lines right now so we will see a lot of variations.
I do give very specific instructions on moulding that I buy to assure I get matching inventory if it is less than a full box. They will inspect it to see if it is the same lot and let me know if they can not fill the order with 100% matches.
There is going to be a lot of pain in this industry for a year or so while the changes all take effect.
I do give very specific instructions on moulding that I buy to assure I get matching inventory if it is less than a full box. They will inspect it to see if it is the same lot and let me know if they can not fill the order with 100% matches.
There is going to be a lot of pain in this industry for a year or so while the changes all take effect.
FrameMakers
PFG, Picture Framing God
Also remember that these changes are happening right now on popular good selling mouldings. Those that are not as fast moving have not been changed out yet as most suppliers have good inventories on these barking spiders.
cjmst3k
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
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I wish suppliers would be straight with us. I believe this is the cause of another issue I had which almost lost a lucrative sale, and I know another supplier seems to have a problem with a moulding they said they were switching suppliers on last spring, and swore months ago would be in-hand in Sept, and now has been delayed indefinitely.
Jeff Rodier
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Same factory issue Chris. The vendor may have rejected the replacement item from the new factory. Framers were not told of the problem because it would have wiped out inventory at many vendors with the possibility of putting them out of business. I ordered 50 boxes of moulding as soon as I heard of the factory closing. I watched one black moulding at Int'l go from nearly 70,000' to zero feet in 2 days. The ETA for replacement shipment was erased at the same time and that shipment would have been in the 100,000' range for a single item number.
Can you imagine how many framers would be going out of business if everybody knew of the problem and the bigger framers loaded up on boxes the way I did.
Can you imagine how many framers would be going out of business if everybody knew of the problem and the bigger framers loaded up on boxes the way I did.
Assuming the above is true, what is no doubt happening is that people with equipment and facilities physically capable of making picture frame moulding are now doing something they've never done before. I'm sure every one of us has taken in a job that we'd never done before, thinking it was going to be a certain level of difficulty and then found out it was the nightmare job. Those who are super conscientious may not have let the job go out the door until it was perfect, but more often than not some jobs go out that leave a bit to be desired. Making picture frame moulding well is not an easy job, and my guess is that even though the manufacturer, importer and/or distributor wasn't entirely pleased with it, when the only option is ship it or dump it when you've got hundreds of thousand of dollars into it, it gets shipped. We've been making picture frame moulding for over 30 years and are still making continuous improvements.
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Some manufacturers are doing the exact opposite, David!
Many times over the past 15 years, a new line has emerged that is excellent quality, then slowly they become sloppy with their production and finishing until it turns to unusable carp!
They seem to be just going through the motions, getting product made and shipped, no matter what it looks like!
I don't know how many times, I've opened a pack of two sticks to find that they just do not match and then neither will match the half stick I have left from a previous batch.