Morso Issue

[tedh]

Here's an interesting problem:

I have a pneumatic Morso with fresh blades. I only use it for linen liners. When cutting a 3-inch Michelangelo liner, I'm getting something like a 44 degree angle: when the four corners are joined, there's a gap at the inner edge of each corner. I think it's caused by the liner slipping as the blade comes down. I only use hand pressure to grip the liner. This has happened several times.

I've got no problems with good corners on my Dewalts, but the fuzz at the outer edges is a royal pain. I'd much prefer to figure out what's happening with the Morso. Anybody else have this problem? I could see dull blades as the culprit, but they're just back from the sharpener, and the cuts are like glass.

 

[neilframer]

I am very familiar with the standard foot operated Morso.
Not the pneumatic.

Have you been able to cut this same liner before without this problem?
Can you try making the cut in 2 or 3 smaller bites rather than one big bite?
You might have to "sneak up" on the 45.

It might be pushing the moulding away from the blade because of the width of the liner or sometimes the wood used for liners can be very hard with crazy grain.

 

[tedh]

Hi, Neil:

Multiple small cuts, with a softwood. I never take a single bite.

I haven't cut a wide liner in a while, but when I do, the same thing happens. I'm almost convinced that the liner needs to be clamped. I may work on this idea tomorrow.

Btw: the previous owner removed the detents. I use my hip to bring the blades closer by sliding the black ball on the end of the handle. On the final slice I press the ball hard to the right, keeping the blades tight against the stop. If the blades can't move, the liner must be getting pushed.

 

[neilframer]

I mostly use a saw and a Barton sander these days.
I still like choppers and there were a few times in the past where I used a big c-clamp with a cushion to keep the moulding from moving or sliding.

A couple of times, on the manual Morso, I adjusted the back fence to NOT be at 45 to compensate for the movement.
I don't know if you can do this on yours.

 

[DVieau2]

You could use the saw to cut the legs 1/2 long and then use the chopper to trim to size. I find this easier than nibbling.

Doug

 

[tedh]

You could use the saw to cut the legs 1/2 long and then use the chopper to trim to size. I find this easier than nibbling.

Doug

I do that too. Takes a bit longer because the Dewalts are in another room.

Still intrigued with the C-clamp idea. This may be the Eureka moment.

 

[Jeff Rodier]

Sounds like the rabbet supports need to be raised for the liner. The fabric on the bottom of the lip compresses allowing it to roll forward during the cut.

 

[Larry Peterson]

Btw: the previous owner removed the detents.

Bummer. When I had my Morso, I would never consider not using the detents. Besides helping prevent tear out, the help keep the moulding aligned properly.

Edit: Maybe not a bummer. After looking at the Morse manual, what I had assumed was the detent is the rabbit support. Not sure now what the detent is.

 

[neilframer]

Still intrigued with the C-clamp idea. This may be the Eureka moment.

And when I say "big c-clamp" this is what I used (with a cushion).
Over the decades of using a manual Morso, I might have used the c-clamp just a few times.

I use this clamp to collapse the caliper pistons when I do a brake job on my car.

The detents on the manual Morso are the notches in the metal semi-circle that are at different degrees for locking the handle in at the angle that you set for cutting.

 

[tedh]

You don't need the detents. The only cut that's important is the final one, and the blades are "locked" against the front by my right hip. Been doing this for twenty years. That's how I broke my Samsung S3 - tool it out of my RH pocket, to avoid crushing it with the Morso ball. Put it in my back pocket, then sat on it. Small world, eh?

I'll let you all know in a couple of days if the molding was being pushed - need to get a new C-clamp.

 

[neilframer]

Actually, if the moulding was truly being pushed away from the blade during the cut, you might get a gap on the inside instead of the outside but it's hard to say without watching the cutting process.

If it's being pushed away on the initial bite and you try to push the moulding closer to the blade on the later cuts, you might get a gap on the outside.

Good luck and keep experimenting, you'll figure it out.

 

[tedh]

The gap is indeed on the inside. If the angle is 44 degrees, then the last join would spread the three other corners open at the inside.

I think.


lol.

 

[Bill Henry-]

The right and left fence might not be at exactly 180 degrees from each other. After I've adjusted one or both of them, I plop down a 10' length of Nielsen moulding to make sure they are.

Since the blades cannot be anything other than exactly 90 degrees (unless there's some crud under them), it doesn't matter what the angle of either fence is to the table - only what the angle the fences are to each other.

 

[tedh]

Not having chopped an octagonal frame, I've never changed the angles of the fences. But I will put a Nielsen length on to see if there's some monkey business going on with the fences. Otoh, the possibility of movement is number one on the Hit Parade.

I can't believe this problem has not been raised before.

One other thing: when chopping liners, the more you squeeze the liner, the higher the possibility you'll get them dirty.

 

[neilframer]

Not having chopped an octagonal frame, I've never changed the angles of the fences. But I will put a Nielsen length on to see if there's some monkey business going on with the fences. Otoh, the possibility of movement is number one on the Hit Parade.

I've cut octagonal frames, but with a miter saw and not the chopper.
The problem with trying to cut other angles besides a 45 on the chopper is that then the rabbet supports don't really work that well at other angles and then you might break out the lip of the moulding when you cut because it's not well supported.

I haven't used a length of Nielsen, but I have used a 4 foot metal ruler.

 

[Dermot Cox-Kearns]

Move the left rear support on the moulding bed in a fraction it may help...

 

[tedh]

Move the left rear support on the moulding bed in a fraction it may help...

The rabbet support?

 

[David Waldmann]

There are three potential problems I can envision:

1. Fences are not set correctly. While you say that narrower moulding cuts fine, remember that the wider the profile the more noticeable it will be. Contrary to popular belief, merely having the fences in a straight line is no guarantee that you are cutting a 90° corner*. Every set of blades seems to cut a bit differently, and whenever we change blades we check for squareness. Our fences are not in a straight line, and I bet that if you ask any of our customers they will tell you that ours are the best fitting corners they've ever seen. Our procedure is posted on our website.
2. The stick is sliding away as you make your cut. With sharp blades and soft wood this is not a likely scenario, but possible. A clamp will probably work, a stop would be better - not only do you get repeatability but no chance of marring from a clamp.
3. The head is moving back. I know you say it's not possible because you are holding it with your hip. But I bet your hip is not as strong as steel... Again, with sharp blades and soft wood this doesn't seem likely either, but I would refit the detent bracket.

Points 2 & 3 can also be a problem if you are taking too little off with your last bite. There is a fine line between taking too much and too little. Another reason to get the detent bracket back on and use it - the last bite is about half the size of the other ones.

*First off, while 44° and 46° DO make 90°, you will end up with an unmatched corner, i.e. you will not be able to make both the inside and outside of the joint line up. The hard thing to understand about this is that while the machine seems very solid and technical there is the factor of the wood involved. That's the only way I can explain getting differing angles with the same setup when changing blades - when you make the cut, the pressure of cutting somehow affects things. However, I have given up trying to understand it - I have simply accepted the fact and therefore we always check and adjust after every knife change. If both sides are cutting a true 45° then you will get four good corners.

 

[tedh]

Lots to think about there, David. Thanks for taking the time to help. As soon as I can pull myself away from the Olympics, I'll go out and try a few cuts to see if I can Spot The Scenario.

 

[Bob Doyle]

After I change the blades I cut a really small frame, like a 2 by 2, or on your 3" molding you could smaller for the inner dimensions. Best way to test for good blade placement I have found If you need to adjust the fences I use a 4 foot steel rule as my guide some of the molding I get isn't actually very straight....

 

[Dermot Cox-Kearns]

The rabbet support?

No the back of the moulding support. ..the fence I think it is called...

 

[Lance E]

I have always had the same issue, more typically with the first cut as the stop seems to be enough to stop the moulding pushing away. Clamping will help significantly but is quite slow. I found that running it with a 2mm thick MDF under it also improves the cut but won't explain why because I don't know .

 

[Bob Doyle]

I have always had the same issue, more typically with the first cut as the stop seems to be enough to stop the moulding pushing away. Clamping will help significantly but is quite slow. I found that running it with a 2mm thick MDF under it also improves the cut but won't explain why because I don't know .

Could be like using a slip sheet with mats. Is there any maintenance needed forthe lower nlades? If so my 30 year old machine has missed a few

 

[artfolio]

I have found that on any fabric covered slip much wider than1" the Morso does that "blunt blade cut" even with newly sharpened blades. I cannot for the life of me figure out why - it must be the same law of physics which has toast always landing butter side down on carpet and butter-up on hard floors. The only logical solution is perhaps the glue under the fabric binds up on the blades.

I always saw mine and, if necessary used sandpaper to cut back any frayed bits.

 

[Bob Doyle]

What if you taped the cut line before using your saw? Would that maybe help with the fraying? What about opening up the jaws so the chopper cut at 45.3 instead of a perfect 45? Then at the worst you'd have the back opening up under the rabbet.

 

[tedh]

I tried taping, but there's still a bit of fraying, and that bit stands out.

 

[JJillian]

If the corners go together but the inside of the joint is open, this tells us that the blades aren't sharpened correctly -- they're pushing the liner away instead of cutting through it cleanly.

If the fences were the culprit, you would likely have three corners that go together well, but the fourth one won't.

If you'd like to speak with us about your technical issues, we are always here to help.

Jill Reeves
Tech Mark, Inc. / MORSO USA
Tel. 800-787-6747 or 501-945-9393

 

[Bill Henry-]

it doesn't matter what the angle of either fence is to the table - only what the angle the fences are to each other.

*First off, while 44° and 46° DO make 90°, you will end up with an unmatched corner, i.e. you will not be able to make both the inside and outside of the joint line up.

Hey David,

I was going to respond to your thesis with biting sarcasm and rapier wit, but I figured I’d better check before I made a fool out of myself.

Well, as much as I hate to admit it, you are correct.

The angle of the blades to the fence is as crucial as the fences are to each other. Otherwise the rails do not align.

I bow to your superior wisdom, and vow to never again challenge your expertise. (< — Now, THERE is the sarcasm I was hoping to employ!

)

 

[David Waldmann]

I bow to your superior wisdom, and vow to never again challenge your expertise. (< — Now, THERE is the sarcasm I was hoping to employ! )

First, apparently you can't quote BH if he thinks he's superior to you, since I now can quote him.

Secondly, since only the parenthetical statement is in green I am assuming the primary statement is genuine, and therefore I can make the foregoing statement.

BTW, I had done a graphic similar to what you did and posted it previously. But I couldn't find it when I was writing my post and didn't (feel like I) have the time to do a new one. Of course, in writing this I realize I must have put it in my Grumble Pics Photobucket album since that's what I do with almost everything I put on here...

 

[David Waldmann]

If the corners go together but the inside of the joint is open, this tells us that the blades aren't sharpened correctly -- they're pushing the liner away instead of cutting through it cleanly.

Jill - welcome to the Grumble. You are a good resource to have here!

It took me a while to come to agreement with you, because I didn't understand what you meant. I think I understand now. You're saying that if most of the joint is tight, and then it opens in a non-linear fashion, it's the knives.

However, I don't believe the converse is true - that if an individual joint is tight, that means categorically that the knives are properly sharpened.

 

[JJillian]

Thanks for the welcome. After all these years I decided to stop being a Grumble Stalker.

"However, I don't believe the converse is true - that if an individual joint is tight, that means categorically that the knives are properly sharpened."

Correct. Open joints are just one symptom we see of improperly sharpened blades.

Jill Reeves
Tech Mark, Inc. / MORSO USA

 

[tedh]

I've been doing fits for two days solid, and haven't had time to play with various theories at the Morso.

But here's the situation: the liner is three inches wide, and the size is 12x24. When I join three pieces into two corners, they both look great. But down at the other end, trying to join the fourth piece, the second 12-incher, the two long arms have to be spread open to accept the shorter one. This is when the gaps show at the inner edges - trying to force-fit it opens up gaps.

In the morning I'm chopping some Larson liners - not as wide, so they should join OK.

 

[neilframer]

After all these years I decided to stop being a Grumble Stalker.

Jill Reeves
Tech Mark, Inc. / MORSO USA

Welcome to the Grumble, Jill.
I have spoken with you over the years and you have been very helpful.

A while back I spoke to you about a replacement spring for my Hansen chopper.
One of the springs broke and I was finally able to find a replacement Hansen spring and I also bought an extra pair as backup.
Hansen parts can be hard to find, except for blades.
The Hansen uses the same blades as a Morso. It's kind of like a Morso on steroids.

I always have sent my blades to Tech Mark for sharpening.
I even have the wooden blade boxes that you supply.
Neil

 

[tedh]

Jill: My sharpening service is fairly close to me: I can take the knives to them with your sharpening instructions. Is there anything I can tell them?

Long ago I did discuss the hollow ground recommendation, and they were reluctant to do that.

Btw: Nice to have you on The G.

 

[stcstc]

if they wont hollow ground the blades, walk away quickly and go somewhere else

 

[David Waldmann]

If the fences were the culprit, you would likely have three corners that go together well, but the fourth one won't.

When I join three pieces into two corners, they both look great. But down at the other end, trying to join the fourth piece, the second 12-incher, the two long arms have to be spread open to accept the shorter one. This is when the gaps show at the inner edges - trying to force-fit it opens up gaps.

I'm pretty sure your fences need alignment.

 

[artfolio]

One test you could try before blaming the guillotine:

Take a piece of softwood moulding or even just a piece of softish timber the same width as the slip which is giving you grief and try cutting that.

If you get the gappy cut in that then the Morso (or most likely its blades) is at fault but I am betting the slip is the problem.

 

[tedh]

Here's A Clue:

Finally got into the workshop. Here are two pix: The first shows that the fences are aligned. The second shows that the extension arm is not aligned, and could be the culprit. There's a gap that indicates the angle could be less than 45 degrees.

.

Going to fix it tomorrow, and see if this was indeed the problem.

 

[Prospero]

First of all, forget moving the right fence. It makes no difference once the moulding is laid along the measuring scale. You can close the gap on the inside by tiny tweaks on the left fence-toward you. And I mean tiny. Remember that any alteration in the angle will be multiplied x4 in the complete frame. Best to try this on wide scraps. If you start to get gapping on the outside, you gone too far.

As Bill was struggling to point out (I think), having two different angles will in theory make each face a different length. But in practice this anomaly is imperceptible.

But there are other factors. If you can cut other mouldings without gaps then the blades and settings are OK and its the moulding that is causing the bad cutting. I would suspect the wood or even the coating (if any) before blaming the fabric. Coarse grained stuff can cause the cut to deflect, particularly if the wood is a bit 'green'. You could try cutting oversize and shaving back using one blade rather than the usual double chop.

 

[David Waldmann]

First of all, forget moving the right fence. It makes no difference once the moulding is laid along the measuring scale.

I would beg to differ. You're suggesting a compromise. If that's good enough, go for it.

We prefer to make the fences right. If you need to re-align the fence to match up to, then do that too.

With Ted's measuring system it's a no-brainer as there are no disadvantages to doing so. If you have the angled lines engraved on the base it's a bit more of a pain, as moving the fence fore or aft changes the intersection with said lines and the measurements will change. At one point we had labels every 12 to 20" showing how far off the measurements were at that point.

 

[tedh]

The left fence aligns with the right fence. If there were no Right Extension Arm, all would be good. The Right Extension Arm is off when compared to the right fence. I'm going to correct this.

 

[neilframer]

Re: Here's A Clue:

Finally got into the workshop. Here are two pix: The first shows that the fences are aligned. The second shows that the extension arm is not aligned, and could be the culprit. There's a gap that indicates the angle could be less than 45 degrees.

View attachment 19590.View attachment 19589

Going to fix it tomorrow, and see if this was indeed the problem.

That may be your problem.
In my opinion, that extension being off alignment with the fence would tend to give you a slight gap on the inside of the miter when joined.
It might be as simple as loosening the bolts holding the right extension and re-aligning the extension with the fence and then re-tightening the bolts.

Good luck, Ted.
Let us know what you find.

 

[tedh]

Now I'm getting ticked.

Aligned the extension arm, got everything perfect, then tried it again on a Larson liner half the width of the Michelangelo.

No difference. Same gap.

I don't see the knives pushing the molding. And the knives are relatively newly-sharpened.

One last attempt to have the sharpening service re-do them to spec, but if that fails, I think I'll ditch the Morso and have all the liners chopped by the suppliers. Life's too short.

 

[David Waldmann]

It would be a bit of a pain seeing you're on the wrong side of the 45th parallel, but if you send it to me I'd be happy to see what we can do with it. If nothing else, it will be a challenge and I like challenges.