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billrobertstudios

True Grumbler
Joined
Jan 12, 2004
Posts
78
From
Cumming, GA
So a lady comes in today while I am working with a customer on a design for a Coca-Cola calendar from 1919 that she claims is worth 10 grand... and she bought it. Didn't say what she paid.

I acknowledge the new customer, who has 3 prints in her hands, and explain that I will be with her asap. She goes over to the molding samples and "browses."

Coca-Cola lady and I come up with a design and she runs out before I can quote a price since she had to pick up her daughter at school. Said to call her with the price. She had been in the store about 2 hours.

Second customer had made some comments on the design process... liked something-or-other and didn't care for something-or-other-else.

Now that Coca-Cola lady is gone, second customer saunters up, dropping her 3 prints on the counter and brandishes about 8 or 9 fillets. She says, "Which one of these will look good in these frames?"

I didn't laugh, but I could have!

I explained how fillets are used and why they couldn't be used as a frame. She was obviously looking for "cheap"... or is that "inexpensive?"

She did finally pick out about $300 worth of framing after several iterations of: "mat-vs.-no mat," "this frame vs. that frame," "what-I-really-like-on-the-piece vs. how-much-do-I-want-to-spend-on-my-son-who-lives-with-3-roommates-and-4-dogs?"

It was fun!

I worked up Coca-Cola lady's order and phoned her with the $841 price tag... conservation all the way, 3 mats, gilded gold frame and fillet, etc.

She was not really shocked at the price, but commented at how much it was. The owner previously encouraged me to offer a 20% discount for "good" customers, whatever that means, and so I said that we were running a special for returning customers (usually with a cupon received in the mail) and I would offer that to her. "Not off the whole price?" she wanted to know. She had to "think about it."

So, later, near closing time, the owner comes in and his cell phone rings. Yep, it's Coca-Cola lady complaining that the previous owner had been able to give her a better price. Well, the owner explained that prices go up over time and that the previous owner was out of business because he gave the store away. He even offered to let her call the previous owner, who agreed to say that to returning customers, if needed.

So, in front of me, the owner says that he will be with me in about 5 minutes and says he wants to work with her. Says he can give 25% off the cheaper molding and maybe up to 30% on higher end stuff.

The converstaion goes on and we find out that she got his number from the owner's other location about 5 miles up the road where she had stopped, obviously to get a competitor's quote!

He hangs up and we do research.

Markup was 2.4 on this particular molding. He decides that 25% is the max he wants to go on something that costs us about $8.50 per foot.

I call up Coca-Cola lady and tell her that we can lower her total bill to about $695 and explain that is saving her about $150 from the original price... still not happy!

She says the owner said he would take 30% off the expensive molding. I went on to explain that we were giving her 25% off on molding that should cost her about $20 per foot and that the "expensive" molding runs about $35 or more per foot. So.... now she is "thinking about it."

So what is the point of all this? I don't know....

Warmest regards,

Bill
 
Bill, hate your Avitar.....LOL

the whole way through your story, I keep asking myself "when did Amy start working for someone else?"

So tell me Bill, how is Mr Streak doing? Or do I have to go ask Amy? :D
 
Originally posted by billrobertstudios:
Markup was 2.4 on this particular molding. He decides that 25% is the max he wants to go on something that costs us about $8.50 per foot.
Bill
Wow, that is quite a story, but I think the more important story is your mark-up. I don't usually comment on business related issues since there are others way more informed than I am. But, I have to say if your mark-up is only 2.4 and you are also extending a good sized discount you like the previous owner are giving it away.

Plus, why did the owner have to do research on his prices? He doesn't know what his mark-up is?

Plus, seems like the Cocoa Cola lady was running the show badgering you for a better price.

Maybe I'll go back and read the story later I might have missed something.
 
This way lies madness.... when you start "Let's Make A Deal" with customers, you are in trouble. Your boss will eventually discover that he made more money from the $300 for three prints for the-son-with-three-roommates than he did for the Coca-Cola lady. If he wants to play the Discount Game, he better have a better cushion than 2.4x markup. I can tell you, it would never happen here. When one is first in business, it is hard to believe that most of the cost of framing is not materials, but is labor, and labor costs plenty. Some learn this sooner and stay afloat, others learn it later and go under. But heck, you knew all this; it is your boss that needs to study the numbers....
 
Originally posted by EllenAtHowards:
This way lies madness.... when you start "Let's Make A Deal" with customers, you are in trouble. ...
Amen to that. Rather than negotiate a price once quoted, my response is to offer another design. The message is that prices vary according to the frame design, not the customer's negotiating skills.

We offer frame materials and methods for every budget, so I choose to reduce the design instead of the profit. This works more often than not, because (A) customers prefer the design they have chosen, (B) they don't wish to appear cheap, and (C) they feel sorry for me when I begin to weep gently.
 
Ellen, you just gave me a brilliant idea... [unlike Jim, I don't have that quivering lower lip thing along with the silent weeping down pat.. but I keep watching my wife for pointers..
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I think a "spin the wheel of fortune" looks good... there would be wonderfull discount spaces like -5% and -10% with a JUMBO -20%... and these would be sprinkled among the usual +10%, +25% as well as the three "Pay Double" spaces.....

I'm sure that ALL of our customers would love to take it out for a spin.... :D
 
Reminds me of the artist who stopped by earlier this week with a couple of oils about 16x20. She says she is shopping for a lower price ... her current framer provides a wood fillet, a hand wrapped liner, and a wood frame matching the fillet ... we can do that ... what sort of volume ... uh only just started painting ... maybe half a dozen a year ... and how much are you paying currently? Oh between $42 and $50 but I have to drive a long way to get there! For a wood fillet, a hand wrapped liner, and a nice wood frame! Ma'am you might want to stay with your current provider! ... in fact perhaps I'll start buying from him!
 
I think it’s important to have any and all discounts in writing. That's true even if you are a one-man shop. Make a list. Think of every possibility and apply any discount on that paper for the circumstance. This isn't for the customer’s piece of mind, it's for yours. I have one and find myself looking at it when a customer asks about a discount. If their order doesn't fit the criteria, I am more comfortable saying "no, sorry". If it does, I give it to them.

There is something about looking at that paper that makes me feel confident and the customer feels like I tried but understands I have to follow these rules. It doesn't matter that I invented these rules. For me, this makes the process more smooth and also protects my margin. I can't imagine discounting a 2.4 markup. WOW.
 
Baer i know a lady that has a Chinese New Year's sale. Her thing is to get fortune cookies and put discounts in the cookies. She has 5, 10, 15, 20, and Free discounts. Each customer does up their order and then after that they get to pick a cookie and apply discount or free to the order placed. It is interesting-every customer gets atleast 5, then I think their is one free one. I just wonder who makes all the fortune cookies?

Patrick Leeland
 
Speaking of pricing, my price list from my predesessor is about 8 years old! I've been kicking up everything one notch, but still seems "off". Also, he actually had a list of what discounts he gave to certain folks. As new owner, am I obligated to continue that? Best practice?
Someone said earlier that pricing by UI isn't good. How else do you do it? What "suggested" pricing chart do you go by? I need to revamp my price list and don't know where to begin. Then again, I don't want to shock the **** out of the old customers by drastically changing what they've been used to. Help, please?
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Val- Don't worry about what the old owner did, or shocking the old customers. If you want to be in business a year from now, you need to learn the art and science of proper pricing and introduce reality into your business.
I strongly urge you to attend the WCAF show in Las Vegas or the September conference in Atlanta and to take pricing classes with Jay Goltz or Bob Carter, as well as business classes with Marc Bluestone or Rob Markoff.
You can't just fly blind with your pricing and other practices. You've got to be analytical about it, have a reason behind what you do, be consistent (don't undermine the integrity of your pricing in the eyes of your customers), and be profitable. No profit = no future. Be professional, and don't let people browbeat you.
Value = Good Quality and Service , at a Fair (not necessarily low) Price.
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Rick
 
... her current framer provides a wood fillet, a hand wrapped liner, and a wood frame matching the fillet ...
Is that what you saw, or what they described to you? Sounds like it could be a ready made. That would make the price about right.
 
Baer:

Who is Amy and who is Mr. Streak?

...and you hate my Avitar? I would be offended if I knew what the heck an Avitar was! You are really confusing me.. or are you confusing me with someone?

Bill
 
Bill:

Your avatar (sorry Baer... :D ) is the sign under your name (looks like the red cross or the Swiss flag to Baer, I guess!)

As for discounts, once one travels that road, it will be very hard to bypass it.

"The previous owner used to give me XYZ discount".

Well, good for him. Maybe he could afford that or he was filthy rich and would discount for everybody. The new owner has tons of debts, kids to feed and mortgage to pay.

Discount should be discretionary (volume, good customers, etc) not something to be expected all the time by everybody.

Do those same customers get a discount at the restaurant or the gas station? No, even though they go there weekly.

Why should a custom frame shop be any different?
 
Bill, it's your avatat (thank you PaulN), you share it with Amy McCray from Wisconson. Streak is her horse.

Sorry, didn't mean to cause offense...

It's just that I like to see/hear Amy's imput on things.. as she has that "very rural / cowboy" viewpoint that I miss from my childhood....

So without looking at the "Name", I started reading a thread "from Amy" and when the twist became clear... I almost fell out of my chair laughing....

OK, so it was funny to me and only for that moment....
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carry on.
 
Time to pour on the sales effort. Tell Coke lady how special your conservation methods are, how you glass is the best quality. Explain to her that her $10,000 unique art needs the most special treatment it can get and how lower priced framers could be cutting corners (bad pun).

Does not always work, but you'd be surprised. In my little side business, I started pouring on the salesman speak and it has helped over the dry science book descriptions I used to give.
John
 
I'm with you Paul... The owner is just a Good ol' Boy and he must believe he is going to get all the business around here like this. He frequently comments about how the previous owner, "Gave away the store." So I don't know why he is doing the same. He thinks the last guy had to sell out because his emmployees gave discounts off the whole job instead of off the molding. I like working for him, but I can't see right now how he will possibly stay in business. Very little work coming in right now.

Baer, why don't you like my avatar, avatir, avitar, avitir or whatever it is? Is there a way to like put in your own? I just picked one when I signed up for PFG. At least I don't look like Santa Claus! HO, HO, HO !!!
 
Thanks Rick...I won't be able to attend Las Vegas or Atlanta, so where else do I go for pricing help without having to leave town? Should I start a new Post?
 
Val, you might want to start with "search" instead of leaving town.

Over the last two years, much has been talked about pricing. Basically the upshot is, nobody can tell you how to set your pricing; because they don't sell to YOUR market. Even if they were two blocks down, the stores are different and the customers perception is different.

But that's not to say there aren't some good points about setting prices in the past threads. There are, you just have to sift through the "dancing about the elephant in the room" paranoia about a customer might be reading the thread... then they would know that you mark up you glass 450%.... :eek:

Notice the world crashing down....
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A start would be [and with a grain of sand] looking in the different catalogs... some have "MSRP" structures... walk them through on 5 or 6 frame jobs and see if their structure works for you and more importantly your customers.

You will find that you continuously will be "tweakng" the price structures anyway.... which is another reason we have POS computers.
 
My "good" customers never asked for a discount.

This customer now knows the owner is willing to bargain. Too bad. She will wait it out to see how low you are willing to go in order to keep the sale. If she becomes a regular, you are going to have to go through this every time she walks in the door. If she tells her friends, you'll have to do the same for them. You could point out you've already spent two hours with her, plus more time working on a price, which would equal at least $150.00 of shop time. Tell her if she had made up her mind faster, she might have been eligible for extra $$ off.
 
people like her just kill me - she has a supposedly $10,000 peice of art that she wants displayed and protected but she wants a bargain frame for it! unbelievable!!!

It just kills me, kills me, kills me!!!! argh!!

I swear that SOMEDAY I'll snap when someone says "well, that's a lot of money - and it's just a gift...."

I'll say back to them "OHH!! Well! why didnt' you say that in the first place??!! We have a special 1/2 price rate for things that are JUST A GIFT!! After all - our suppliers love to give gifts away as much as we do!!"

grrr.......

(can you tell I'm grumpy tonight - I got a whole boat load of bad news tonight.... sorry if I'm too grouchy..... maybe I should just not post anything else ......)
 
Originally posted by Val:
Thanks Rick...I won't be able to attend Las Vegas or Atlanta, so where else do I go for pricing help without having to leave town? Should I start a new Post?
I'm sending you a private message.
 
I swear that SOMEDAY I'll snap when someone says "well, that's a lot of money - and it's just a gift...."

I'll say back to them "OHH!! Well! why didnt' you say that in the first place??!! [/QB][/QUOTE]

I got this wonderful image of Basil Fawlty going bazonkers with one of his hotel guests - as with the Waldorf Salad episode or some such. Perhaps there could be a framing sit-com... :D

Rebecca
 
I swear that SOMEDAY I'll snap when someone says "well, that's a lot of money - and it's just a gift...."

I'll say back to them "OHH!! Well! why didnt' you say that in the first place??!!
[/QUOTE]

I got this wonderful image of Basil Fawlty going bazonkers with one of his hotel guests - as with the Waldorf Salad episode or some such. Perhaps there could be a framing sit-com... :D

Rebecca
 
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