Moral Question

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free2beme

CGF, Certified Grumble Framer
Joined
Mar 21, 2011
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Brookings, SD
So I opened up a prematted piece of street art from Norway today. The bottom mat clashed with the sweet little picture of blueberries in a field and mountains in the background. The top mat was signed beautifly by the artist. The problem is that when I opened it up, I found that the print was actually a cut up piece of a calander image. The customer was so excited about the print she got from the artist in Norway, do I break her heart and tell her what it is, or just let her be obliviant?
 
Tough one in some ways.

She did realize it was a print, right? If it was a print of the artist's work that signed the mat then it is still a signed, albeit on the mat, print... which she already knows.

Just because it is a cheap calendar reproduction does not mean it is not a signed-on-the-mat reproduction by the artist.

I think your moral compass is if she believes it something it is not then I would be inclined to tell her what it is. A calendar print is still a print.

My curiousity is if the person signing the mat actually did the original that the print was made from. If not then fraud was perpetrated.
 
Had a bank president with an original oil he bought from the artist in Italy. He told me the story of the negotiation process and the final price of around $1,000. Had the made in China sticker on the bars but he thought that was just the canvas and not the painting. We had the same Chinese oil in 2 different sizes for sale in the store for $125 in the size he bought but I never told him since he was proud of his purchase.

Like Dave said if it was the artists work that was printed then it is what it is but if they thought it was the original you should disclose so they can't come back later and say you switched them.
 
Some here might handle it differently than this, but
I always let the customer know what they have.
If it was mine, I'd want to know.
 
This is a question we framers face over and over again - do we burst their bubble or let them have their dreams? It kind of depends on circumstances.

Artists who sell "original watercolors" which turn out to be Xeroxes ought to be whipped. People who come back from Egypt with "Handpainted Papyrus" ought to know better but I let them continue to live on De Nile.

In the case described in the OP, it could well be the artist had prints of a painting which made it into a calendar (not unlike our dear Don) and why waste a beautiful calendar when the year is over, especially if the printing is done on good paper.
 
I am not an art appraiser. It is not my place to discuss the provenance, authenticity, or value of artwork with a client. I will gladly refer to a local appraisal house if requested. My job it too frame memories and ruining her memory of what a nice vacation she had would not be in my best interest. IMHO
 
I'd tell them. But then again....... I like to kick puppies. :p

Seriously...... I would tell them especially if they said to you something that DIFFERED
what you found out. Wouldnt you like to know if it was you??
 
As a customer I would want to know, but I can understand your hesitation to burst their bubble. I can think of the first time I picked up a print that I thought was a real signed edition, then a friend pointed out that the signature had the same color and texture as the print. If it wasn't for that experience, I never would have known to look at those qualities. I still have and like the print, the lesson was worth the $50, but not the paper.
 
I seen this happen:

In a couple of years the acid from the ink on the backside migrates to the front and the dates and grid starts to show through.

Sorry to add to your dilemma.

Doug
 
I cannot see what morals has to do with it unless you are wondering if it is OK to be part of the lie/deception that took place in the first instance.

Tell your customer.

What happens in time, if that frame is opened again and you get accused of swapping the “supposed original” for a print from a calendar?

I would feel that you have a moral duty to be honest with your customer, if it was something of huge value would you tell you customer!! we cannot always be the bearers of good news.

PS: I had posted before reading Robo’s thread from 2010…..he more or less said the same thing as I did….
 
It sounds as though the customer knew it was a print. A calendar page is a print. I would do whatever needs to be done, and let her enjoy.
 
It would be a different matter if the customer brought a piece in for appraisal. In that case you tell it to them straight. If they bring something for framing it's not really your place to play detective - unless they ask. ;)

I had a couple bring in an 'oil' they bought at a local auction. It was about 12x10", portrait of a gypsy girl as I remember. Unsigned. Listed as "European School" in the catalogue. It was a huge ornate gold frame which they didn't like. At first glance it looked like what it said on the can. I took it out the frame while they were there. That's when the red flags started popping up.... It was on a wooden panel, painted black over the back. The frame was clearly a Chinese import, but no reason why it couldn't have replaced an original frame. What really snagged it was that it was held in the frame with big square-cut 'horseshoe' nails. And they were shinny bright! Someone had gone to all the trouble of using the type of nails contemporary with the supposed age of the painting and hadn't bothered to bury them in a compost heap for a few months to age them a bit.

But to cut to the chase.... It was an overvarnished print. Retail no more than about £60-70. They paid £280. So they took it back to the auction house and got a refund. Lost the framing job, but wasn't sorry. In that case I knew that what it was clearly not what they were sold it as. Other things like the calendar print are a bit more ambiguous, so best to keep quiet unless pressed.

btw. Another customer brought one of my paintings from the same auctioneers for about 5% of it's value. They had it listed as a print. :p
 
I think it's a duty, if the customer believes one thing from what can be seen from the front ........ and then it becomes easily apparent from what they could not see on the back, or from what was covered by the mat, that it's another thing AND WOULD HAVE BEEN JUST AS OBVIOUS TO THE CUSTOMER had they seen what was concealed ..... to simply disclose what you have uncovered.
 
So if she finds out what it really is, is she going to take it back to Norway to get her money back?
Unless she was making a big issue of it being an original when she brought it in, just make it look great and let her enjoy it.
:shrug: Rick
 
I keep a Lee Valley 10-power jeweler's loupe at the design table to be able to spot four-color offset prints when people bring in what they think are originals. Happened three times in the past two months, and I tell them straight off what they've got. One guy went back and got a refund on the spot. I lost a frame job, but gained a future customer.

Know what else? I'm beginning to think that those god-awful tropic paintings that come in every winter are painted in China. Some of the subjects and styles lead me to believe that some entrepreneur is importing them and flogging them as local art.

Next: the Israeli-student scam: for years people have brought in obvious China sh*t for framing, telling me that they bought them from a pair of jewish university students working their way across Canada by selling their art. Well, did anybody hear about the successful prosecutions of the Montreal lady and her kids? Good riddance.

There's too much fraud and deception in this industry, from the starving artist sales to the Picasso frauds to the Xerox-copied "originals". If I can tell for sure, then the customer gets the bad news.
 
tedh said:
Know what else? I'm beginning to think that those god-awful tropic paintings that come in every winter are painted in China. Some of the subjects and styles lead me to believe that some entrepreneur is importing them and flogging them as local art.
Click to expand...

That's an old scam. Someone in a tourist resort can easily take some photos and order up a load of painting from China. Then set up an easel at the same viewpoint and sit there with palette and brushes in hand pretending to paint one. Have a few spread around that you can sell to passing tourists. Why would anyone suspect? Guy with a set of paints - the painting is of the view he's looking at. You can even order the paintings unsigned and add your own.
The beauty is, by the time the people discover the deception (if they ever do) they will be back home and flying out to the place they brought it to exact retribution is not really an option. And if they did, the chances of finding the 'artist' again are slim to zero.
 
I would definitely tell the customer if they believe the art is something better or different than what it actually is. I love going to antique stores/malls and frequently see cheap prints incorrectly labeled as "oils", "paintings", "watercolors", etc. Antique dealers should certainly know better, but many are ignorant. I feel sorry for the unsuspecting shoppers who get excited about their new "original" piece of art.
 
Ive only lost one framing job after showing the customer what they had.

Id tell them. If they find out later somehow, they may blame you for not telling them and having them spend the money on junk... of course they may love that junk and not care. and still have it framed... which i have had happen as well.
 
Would the knowledge of the authenticity of the work affect their decision to get it framed, and by not shaing that knowledge are you complicit in the deception?

Is it ethics or morals...I get the two confused?
 
Last week I had a guy come in with a couple of papyrus from Egypt. He was kind of hesitant and asked me if they were worth framing. They were nicer than most of this genre and I asked him if he had bought them in Egypt. He told me he had lived there for five years - so I told him IMHO they were certainly worth framing to remind him of such memories as he must have from all those years.

He chose a LJ Ferrosa frame and a suede mat! :thumbsup:

If someone has been to the Left Bank in Paris and mentions that they "only paid $5" for a little painting, I tell them to add their air fare!
 
I mentioned the air fare when designing for a vietnamese embroidery the other day.
:cool: Rick

I know I'll get some arguments on this, but I'm not so sure we always need to be the authenticity police. We're in a gray area here, and it's a judgment call. Unless we're talking about someone having been taken for a somewhat substantial amount of money, I think we may sometimes diminish our customers' enjoyment of a casually purchased picture by making them feel like victims of fraud. Sure, there are a lot of color copies sold to tourists misrepresented as watercolors. I don't condone that, but it isn't necessarily in the same league as an expensive purchase from a deceptive auction and the like. Sometimes someone just wants to enjoy an attractive artistic souvenir of a trip. To paraphrase Freud, "Sometimes a banana is just a banana."
 
Years ago I had a woman bring in a beautiful image.

Oh, did you get this in the museum bookstore?" I asked.....

"No . . I bought it from the artist last month when I was in Paris"

I opened the New York Graphics catalog to the image.....

"Oh, he's published."

"Yes, and he has been dead for over a hundred years."

I don't remember if we framed it or not.....

There is no "moral question" here. . . and this isn't about kicking puppies
(Nickle... remind me to start kicking kids...)

This is about education. If we can educate our customers, it makes
them better consumers. If they know we will always be honest with them,
they will bring us their stories, and let us help them tell them better.

Now... about that 14"x9" Awaza.... titled "March 2010"
 
I know what you mean, Baer. When I was teaching particle physics in the Mozambique Channel coastline area, I went asking around about where I could purchase a nice little Monet poster to hang in my nyumba. I reckon my Swahili wasn't top-notch that day because when I asked a cab driver if he could help me out all he said was "I have no Monet to buy Degas to make the Van Gogh."
 
Put yourself in their shoes..... If you want to be completely lied to ANOTHER time... go for it.
Be the cheeezy car sales men and sell to them.

I happen to suck at lying. I would want to know. Why keep up the deception? :kaffeetrinker_2:
 
So what do you guys do when a customer brings in a Tarkay. I would like to hear this one from others.
 
"Worth framing"

Looking at it from another perspective, a repro is a much better candidate for framing than an original work of art or document, since the fading of the repro is a small loss for the owner, while fading of the original could reduce the value of what they own significantly.



Hugh
 
Don't ask don't tell

free2beme said:
So I opened up a prematted piece of street art from Norway today. The bottom mat clashed with the sweet little picture of blueberries in a field and mountains in the background. The top mat was signed beautifly by the artist. The problem is that when I opened it up, I found that the print was actually a cut up piece of a calander image. The customer was so excited about the print she got from the artist in Norway, do I break her heart and tell her what it is, or just let her be obliviant?
Click to expand...

I did not hear you say she asked. She loves it - leave it at that.

I would not want to make my customer feel stupid.

It is a different matter if she asks about the medium.

I frame what I consider worthLess all the time. Can you say Park West?

I can hear it now. "You know dear, you are framing a cut up calendar - hope you did not pay much for it. You may not want to put the expensive Larson frame on it. Here is a nice cheap Decor" LOL

just kidding
 
Well, she picked it up yesterday. The moment she saw it, her eyes lit up, big smiles and almost in tears, so I didn't have the heart to break hers. She loves it, that's all that matters.

I just felt more animosity towards the so-called street (scam) artist that she bought it from, no need to take that out on her precious memeories. Great comments though everyone! :thumbsup:
 
free2beme said:
I just felt more animosity towards the so-called street (scam) artist that she bought it from, no need to take that out on her precious memeories. Great comments though everyone! :thumbsup:
Click to expand...

She may have only paid what it is worth
 
Here is the question I have about the Tarkay artwork. They are sold as originals which technically is true since they are serigraphs. They are also supposedly signed by Tarkay which is a flat out lie. I frame dozens of them if not 100 or more per year. Lay 2 of them on top of each other and hold to the light and it is perfectly clear that these are signed with a plotter holding a pencil.

Do you tell the customer the truth about these priceless little gems or frame them and get on with your life.
 
Jeff that is a different discussion to what was the original question which was about passing off a old calander print as something that is not.

In your case if the signing of the originals are done in a manner the artist has approved, then in my book it is legitimate, all be it a bit on the tacky side.
 
Technically, I suppose that is literally a "signed Tarkay". Nevertheless, it is still a mass-produced decorative piece. This is distinct from an original painting by that artist or even a multiple original such as a handmade lithograph or other original medium print. Besides, that genre of art is characterized by formulaic imagery and mechanized technique. While a few people may feel that they are buying something like that as an "investment" (and THAT is where deceptive representation may be coming into play), most buyers of those probably consider them "nicer" than the chinese preframed repros from Z Gallery, so worth a little higher expenditure. I doubt anyone thinks they are buying something in the realm of an original canvas by Carravaggio.

I guess these would be analogous to the "original oils" sold by the "Israeli Art Students" or the furniture stores. They are what they are... and caveat emptor.
:popc: Rick
 
I think if the customer likes it leave well enough alone. It will only take away from the joy she feels when looking at it. We had a dealer bring us in a very valuable drawing by a famous artist that turned out to be an old reproduction on good paper. We told the dealer what it was because she was going to sell it to someone who would have thought it was something it was not. The dealer was embarrassed because she had set herself up with us as an expert. She never returned. Auction houses often times do not want to tell customers that their art is not real to avoid the many problems that can arise by "burning" a work of art. They just say "we do not wish to include it in our sale at this time." Makes things much easier.
 
I have framed numerous Tarkay's which are touted as "Original Paintings" but are nothing more than plaque prints. The buyers are lead to believe that these are hand painted by Tarkay onto HDF panels. These have poured urethane and routed edges.

The paper prints are sold as "Original, Hand Signed by the Artist".



Kinkade contracted artists to work "As Thomas Kinkade".
 
At least with glass art by Dale Chihuly he has put out enough videos with his staff dancing around and making glass stuff, no one can express any surprise that he is the "designer" and did not make pieces himself. The world of printmaking has gone straight downhill since the Dali debacle.
 
If I couldn't bring myself to flat out tell her, I would call and say "I found another mat that looks better, can you come by to see it?" and let them come to their own conclusion.

Also, last thing you want is them thinking later on you switched their original for the calendar page.

...I say rip the bandaid off quickly.
 
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