Measuring

Lisa in New Jersey

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I"ve been a framer since 2002, I was "trained" at the dreaded "Michael's" store and since then have worked in 2 privately owned shops. Now this shop I just started working in since Jan has me measuring artwork using Height first, and Width second and it has been frustrating reminding myself everytime I write out an order. Does anyone else measure this way?

btw. i'm SO glad I found this grumble site... I have SO many topics to share!!!
 

Paul N

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Hi Lisa, welcome to the Grumble!

Actually, yes many measure that way. And my POS system, LifeSaver, requires such measurement, height first!

Get used to it, it is not worth getting upset over it.

Where is Jmaesburg, by the way? Near Jamesburg maybe....?? ;)
 

Lisa in New Jersey

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ooops! yes I'm from Jamesburg NJ (exit 8a!) for those who know the turnpike!
SO i'm gonna have to get used to it even though our computerized mat cutter, a 1999 Fletcher does it the OTHER way! Argh! I can't wait until the boss springs for a Wizard though, this dinosaur is soo limiting!

but that's another topic.... on to my next question!
 

RoboFramer

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We always measure height first, but whichever you measure first, as long as everyone in your set up does it the sane way, it doesn't matter.

Then you know for sure whether something goes portrait or landscape, which matters when it comes to fixing hardware and bottom weighting.

Esp for 'frame only' jobs.
 

Sherry Lee

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Welcome Lisa!

I went to nursing school at Muhlenberg Hospital in Plainfield, NJ - don't remember the exit number. Are you close?

Your question is appreciated. I've always felt there should be a standard in our field and anything associated with dimensions - i.e. furniture, appliances, etc. There's nothing worse than trying to make heads/tails out of a catalogue when measurements are up for grabs.

I've always measured the way you were taught as well. Now that we have a POS system it seems one must adapt to that. Does your new employer have a POS system?

Guess you just have to show them that you CAN teach a 'young' dog new tricks!
thumbsup.gif
 

Paul N

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Sherry:

Plainfield is quite far from the turnpike. Even the GS Parkway is far. I know, I used to work nearby, Mountainside.

The closest highways to Plainfield are 22 and 78.
 

Ron Eggers

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POS = Point of Sale.

A computerized system for pricing and printing framing orders and tracking inventory, customers and sales.

Not too many years ago, you had to program your own or get by with a generalized retail POS that didn't really understand picture framing. Now there are several excellent packages out there for the framing industry. Each user has her favorite.

I'll bet Michaels, and maybe the independents that you worked for, had POS systems and you just hadn't heard them referred to as that.
 

Baer Charlton

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Point Of Sale, Lisa... oops, that would make it POSL. Ah, what the Wheaties.

The rest of the world, construction, decor, landscape, etc measures Width then Height then depth if applicaple.

As a sailor will tell you "you want to know her beam before you care about her height."

For doors and windows it's the same.
A usual door for a bedroom is 32" wide and 6'8" tall and is refered to as a 2868 or 2'8" x 6'8".

A sliding window 6'wide and 32" tall that opens from the right is a 6028XO the "XO" means the X/left is fixed and the O/right is the operative slider.

But sorry, there's nothing you can do about your boss and his policies....
faintthud.gif
 

Lisa in New Jersey

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Ah OK! no we don't have a POS, but i do remember Michaels had one! i think my boss is thinking about getting computerized at least for the retail end...

hey my shop is right off of Rt 24 in Chatham!

yeah I have an hour's drive to work!! blah!
 

Paul N

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Chatham - What a nice town!

Near a nice mall too, the Short Hills.

Aren't Madison and Chatham like almost the same town?? Brings back memories.

Oh yes, tell your boss a POS is really handy. Especially if it's free....from LifeSaver (a free version co-branded with True-Vu).
 

Ruth

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Originally posted by Sherry Lee:
Welcome Lisa!

I went to nursing school at Muhlenberg Hospital in Plainfield, NJ - don't remember the exit number. Are you close?

Way off topic but... I was born in that hospital the last day of 1958. :D
 

Ruth

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Originally posted by Paul N:
Hi Lisa, welcome to the Grumble!

Actually, yes many measure that way. And my POS system, LifeSaver, requires such measurement, height first!

Get used to it, it is not worth getting upset over it.

Where is Jmaesburg, by the way? Near Jamesburg maybe....?? ;)
I recently started using Lifesaver (again) and you can change it to horizontal first now.
 

Kit

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Originally posted by Ruth:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sherry Lee:


Way off topic but... I was born in that hospital the last day of 1958. :D </font>[/QUOTE]Okay - this is very weird. We have WAY too many framers born on December 31st - far more than the law of averages would suggest.

What's going on? Parents trying to get in on that year's income tax deduction? (That's the reason my son's birthday is New Year's Eve.)

Kit
 

Kit

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What an odd thing to say! I would have thought that was one for Mr. Obvious.

It's an odd coincidence - unusual - something out of the ordinary.

Therefore I find it interesting. Not portentious, just interesting. I'm intrigued by incongruous bits of data and find them fascinating.

Wanna move this over to Warped so as not to Frankenthread Lisa's question about measuring?

Kit
 

Doug Gemmell

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Too late.
kaffeetrinker_2.gif
 

Meghan MacMillan

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Kit, I think that perhaps Jay was wondering why it matters which way you measure, or at least which way you record the dimensions.

The answer to that, if I may, is consistency. My standard for years has been width x height, and I was able to make a choice in my POS. By having a uniform standard anyone working on an order will know which way a job is to hang. 98% of the time it is obvious, but the 2% of times when it's not are almost certain to occur on the day the person has who wrote it up has off.
 

Kit

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Originally posted by Meghan MacMillan:
Kit, I think that perhaps Jay was wondering why it matters which way you measure, or at least which way you record the dimensions.

Meghan, I'm sure you're right but I couldn't resist taking a poke at Mr. Obvious.

I'm wondering if the height/length question might be influenced by the side of the pond on which you are measuring.

American publishers print book titles on the spine from the top down - French publishers print them from the bottom up. And I think I remember some European print publishers listing height first in their catalogs.

Kit
 

MrObvious

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Originally posted by Meghan MacMillan:
98% of the time it is obvious, but the 2% of times when it's not are almost certain to occur on the day the person has who wrote it up has off.
I would say its obvious 100% of the time but I am a freak when it comes to things like this.

Assuming your 2% is correct wouldn't it be obvious for the order taker jot down notation like "portrait" or "landscape"? That would have to save more time and cut down on ulcers than fretting over the 98% of orders when it couldn't possibly be less trifling.
 

Doug Gemmell

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MrObvious' points about making notes are well taken. With most abstracts, not only do you not know whether it should be portrait or landscape but which end is up! :eek:
 

Doug Gemmell

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I shouldn't have said "most abstracts". Only those that don't have a signature, and most do.
 

Jay H

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I've often wondered if it was rude to ask the artist of said abstract, "Which end is up?"
 

Susan May

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A lady working in Atlanta (for Larson Juhl) once told me that they prefer that the measurments were givin to them LArge size first, then the small size. So, what normal people would call an 8X10, they would call a 10X8.

I guess it made it easier for them to make sure that they had enough moulding for a frame, before they cut it.
 

Paul N

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i submit that sometimes it is imperative that one knows which measurement is vertical and which is horizontal.

One case where such info is important is when one is ordering / working on a silk wrap (for the way the silk grain should be pointing).

At least that's what I learned.

Maybe the silk-wrap-master, Baer, could either endorse or debunk this theory??
 

Jay H

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I could probably come up with a good reason for wanting the square root of the shortest leg of the largest frame of the week. But is it important enough to list that number on every framer order?
 

Framerguy

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I'm not familiar with all the other POS programs but those who use FrameReady will agree that each and every workorder starts out with the orientation of the image and then the width and height of the image in that order.

Consistency is probably the overriding factor in doing the measuring the same way each time. It's like joining a frame using the same leg each time, ie., short leg then long leg, long leg then short leg, so you don't make a mistake and join 2 legs of the same dimension.

(Well, unless you're doing a square frame.)

I even have to use a highlighter to mark the mat on each workorder that has a fillet so I remember to cut that mat with a reverse bevel. Otherwise I usually forget until it's too late.

But then I am still learning about this framing stuff.

Framerguy
 

Bill Henry-

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so you don't make a mistake and join 2 legs of the same dimension.
(Well, unless you're doing a square frame.)
… or making a kite.
 

Paul Hardy

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Museums, art dealers and auctioneers in Europe and the USA all put height first. It would be ideal if framers stuck with the same convention as well.

Paul Hardy
 

Rogatory

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Paul N. is right.

Anyone remember doing polar coordinates (or Cartesian coordinates) in school? You know: XYZ.

*To specify a particular point on a two dimensional coordinate system, indicate the x unit first (abscissa), followed by the y unit (ordinate) in the form (x,y), an ordered pair.

X is first= horizontal.
Then Y= vertical
(Of course we don't need to know Z)

For those that still only use a manual matcutter it might not be a problem to write down the measurements backwards (Y then X) but upgrade to a POS and a CMC your going to make a lot of mistakes. A CMC only understands X then Y.


* Wikipedia.
 

Jim Miller

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FACTS has a few standards useful to framers who wish to standardize the frame measuring process:

GEN-1998, Taking, recording, and communicating Measurements

FRM-397, Ordering Frames and Chops

FRM-396, Determining Frame Allowance

Download these and other framing standards free at www.ArtFACTS.org
 
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