matting no glass

A

A.Wise

CGF, Certified Grumble Framer
Joined
Jul 16, 2002
Posts
130
From
Wadsworth, Oh
I had a customer pick out framing for a senior picture. When I got to the glass option she said that the photographer recommended no glass. When I told her that was fine but I don't recommended matting if she doesn't want glass, she said that the photograhper has them on display with matting and no glass. It might be a liner but she is checking for sure. Am I wrong about this? Would you always recommend glass if they want matting? Would you do the piece without glass? The picture has a finish on it that it could be framed without glass but the whole no glass on matting just doesn't sound right to me.
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******* photograpers....
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We've gotten a few in that the photographer matted without glass... 8x10 in an 11x14 frame... you figure what the mats looked like.
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The "professional" photographer had spray mounted the mat (non-rag) to the photomount. They had scabbed at that too.

With a lot of work we finally got them seperated... and rematted in a custom frame... customer happy.
 
I tell customers that perhaps indeed that spray coating may protect against fingerprints and dust, but it will not protect against champagne corks or splatters. One never know what will get flung up against your lovely portrait and it is better to physically protect it than to wish you had. And of course, you need the glass to protect the mat surface as well as to prevent buckling. And, no, we won't frame with mats and no glass. Ever since I got talked into it, it buckled and I had to refund the money. Nope. Sorry.
 
What about using Bevel accents or mounting to fome core to provide strength?

If it did work then I would charge for triple matting to discourage the practice! Besides isn't the 30%-/+ UV protection of reg glass better than no glass at all?

Lot of reason why not to use no-glass. If they want the look of no-glass suggest museum glass!
 
We ask "Did the photographer say 'Don't put glass on the picture.'?" Or did they say "Don't use glass at all". Usually the customer doesn't remember the details and after the explanation that "Don't put glass on the picture" means that the glass should not contact the picture and does not mean to not use glass at all, the customer understands the need for the glass.

The photographer with whom we do a fair amount of work told us that customers are told "Don't put glass on the picture" because many will just go buy a packaged photoframe and not see a picture framer.
 
I can't imagine what would motivate a photographer to say "no glass". But there are dummies in every line of work.

I think Rick's got the more common scenario: the photographer tells the customer not to place the glass in contact with the print, but the customer hears "don't use glass". I definitely want my customers to use glazing; it's key to getting the print to last. But I always tell them to use a mat to keep the glass from touching the surface of the photograph.
 
If a customer insists on "no glass" for a picture with mat for cost reasons; and the picture has some kind of sentimental value: I'd give them the glass for free.

I'd rather lose those few $$ than have a sad customer in a few weeks.

But I did occasionally hear a customer mention the "no glass + photographer" in one sentence...
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Originally posted by Paul N:
If a customer insists on "no glass" for a picture with mat for cost reasons; and the picture has some kind of sentimental value: I'd give them the glass for free.

I'd rather lose those few $$ than have a sad customer in a few weeks.

But I did occasionally hear a customer mention the "no glass + photographer" in one sentence...
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Bewre you give away glass to a customer and the customer will balk when you "try" to charge them for it later.
 
I'm with Paul...I either wouldn't accept the job or throw in clear glass at no charge if the customer just didn't want to spend the few bucks.

I would never frame a matted picture without glass...even without my sticker on the back.

Now as far as always glazing a photo...it's a tradeoff. Short of museum glass, a photo that has some protection over it can very well look better without glazing. I explain the tradeoff to the customer and have often framed photos that are coated without glass unless it's hanging in a smoker's home or a home with a fireplace, etc.

Dave Makielski
 
Sometimes I pull out the dirty (on one side) glass sample that I pulled off a re frame piece from a while back and show how dirty the glass can get and tell them now imagine what the filth would have done to your picture if the glass wasn't there.

This almost always brings the discussion to an abrupt end and they end up getting UV glass.

Had a photographer apply a textured coating over a portrait and the customer told me no glass. As we were designing the picture she kept using her hand to brush at dust that was on it.

After 10 minutes of her brushing it I said, "now imagine that is on your wall for a week". Another UV sale thanks to an ill informed photographer.

I'm not bashing photographers, it's just like every other field.. some good, some not so good.

But you know what they say, the first person and the last person to graduate medical school are both called Doctor.
 
If the photographer has the photos displayed with mats/no glass, it is probably because glass will take away from the quality of the photograph by reflection (clear glass), or clarity (non-glare). It doesn't necessarily mean he/she would recommend it be framed w/o glass. He/she is selling photography, not framing, after all.

Or they are framed with a liner.

Sometimes people did not want glass used with their portrait photography, especially when they paid extra for it to look like an oil painting.
 
If they want it to look like a oil painting...they should either

1) hire a painter to paint an oil
or
2) have the photo printed on canvas with a UV laminate to protect it. Then it can be stretched and framed like an oil.

We have found that the costs of printing on canvas and stretching is slightly less than ConClear. But the UV laminate actually enhances the color luminosity and looks great.... Then we can talk about a very nice fabric liner and CC frame.
 
I believe most people who ask to Not use mat and/or glass are trying to get by as cheaply as possible.

Many of my customers say they only want a 2" wide mat, thinking a 3" will cost a whole lot more.

I wouldn't accept the project w/o putting glass over the mat. Would try to educate, but chances are they aren't going to be interested in UV, CC, canvas or anything else that costs more than a Buck-2-50.
 
Count me among those who will not purposely sell matting without glazing. If a customer insists, we will of course do it, but with a clear warning about fast deterioration of the mat's unprotected paper surface.

In my limited experience, when the customer says "the photographer said no glass", the issue is probably with visibility, and not necessarily with price. Wanting the best possible view is a respectable desire, so in that case we recommend Museum Glass or its non-UV cousin, AR.

That way, we find out real fast if it's a price issue.

:D
 
When they ask me for matting and no glass I explain that it can only be done with a hand wrapped fabric which can be mounted to an appropriate backing that would be sturdy enough to not warp over the years. Cost of glass is then removed from the equation when they find out the true cost of their request.
 
The customer wasn't worried about the price she was just quoting what the photographer said and he said no glass. He told her the picture looks better without glass and that the finish on it would be ok. She took her picture home and wanted to research it more. She spoke to an art teacher and she told her you put that kind of money into the picture and you don't want it protected?? Go for the glass!! she also had a picture hanging on the wall with mats and no glass and the customer said she could see the mats had started to buckle without the glass. Needless to say she brought the picture back to have framed with the glass. And I think she was impressed that I possibly new more than the photographer. ;)
 
Originally posted by A.Wise:
...the photographer said... no glass. He told her the picture looks better without glass and that the finish on it would be ok... She took her picture home and wanted to research it more. She spoke to an art teacher...
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She wanted to research it more?

Loosely translated, I think that means she wasn't willing to take your word for it, so she asked an art teacher's opinion about who was right.

The art teacher sided with you, but he might have just as easily sided with the photographer. You got lucky.

I suggest you get the Tru-Vue tassel display for Museum Glass, which the photographer has obviously never seen. If you had showed her that excellent point-of-purchase display, then you might have sold her Museum Glass on the spot.

This kind of scenario plays out every day in our business. What's disturbing is that the customer considered the photographer and the art teacher to be authorities equal to you on framing.

If she wanted a second opinion about brakes for her car, would she ask the guy she knows at the car wash?
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Someone in my shop keeps letting customers frame large things mounted on fabric mats with no glass. I have been talking to the customers about cleaning a bright white fabric mat, but they just don't care.

And Jim- I agree with your sentiment. We constantly have customers come in that tell us that someone told them how to do it right, and that we don't know what we are talking about. My favorite is when an artist has included a paper about how a work should be framed. It makes me want to call them up and re-educate them.

I wish that there were programs where framers could go around to art classes in thier areas and teach professors/teachers correct mounting/matting techniques and the importance of framing so that by the time we get the work, it's not already ruined from adhesives or worse.
 
I so love the Grumble! Read this topic yesterday morning. Back in the "old days" of framing we were taught not to use glass on needlework, matted or not.I have drastically changed my thoughts on that. I just brought in several pieces my mom did years ago and had framed without glass. They've yellowed and are dusty and dirty. A lot of work to clean and reframe them.
So, yesterday a woman brought in a beautiful emoroidery piece that she did and a competitor framed, angry at the result. Suede mats were reversed, not even, and had been mounted crooked and on a sticky backing. She didn't know that part. Anyway, it also had no glass. White fabric. Dark blue suede mat. She was very adamant about not wanting glass because it "makes them look hard", none of her other ones at home had glass and "I don't smoke, so it shouldn't be a problem". I showed her my mom's pieces, and talked about the dust that was already on her dk blue mat and she hadn't even taken it out of the bag to hang it yet. This is Nevada, where dust is our greatest commodity!Then I walked over to one of the shop windows with a paper towel, swiped it and showed her the brown spot. I had just washed those windows last week. No-one smokes in there either. I also talked about The Grumble and all the info supporting glazing. I said 2,000+ framers can't be all wrong!
She's having her embroidery remounted, rematted and non-reflective UV glass, and will bring in the others to put glass on them too.
I think I'll leave one of Mom's pieces as it is and in the shop for a why-you-need-glass lesson, and keep talking about the Grumble! Thanks everyone!
 
Originally posted by Baer Charlton:
If they want it to look like a oil painting...they should either

1) hire a painter to paint an oil
or
2) have the photo printed on canvas with a UV laminate to protect it. Then it can be stretched and framed like an oil.

We have found that the costs of printing on canvas and stretching is slightly less than ConClear. But the UV laminate actually enhances the color luminosity and looks great.... Then we can talk about a very nice fabric liner and CC frame.
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We sell the laminates all the time....they do look great.

I say if the cost of glass is an issue then the cheapos get what they deserve if the mats buckle & the pictures get dirty. :rolleyes:
 
I say if the cost of glass is an issue then the cheapos get what they deserve if the mats buckle & the pictures get dirty.
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You bet they get what they deserve, so long as they know the consequences when they make that decision -- and remember doing so later, when the damage shows up.

For example, if the customer notices the dirty, buckled mat five years later, she may look at the sticker on the back of the frame and decide not to go back there, not rememebering that when the framing was done, the framer told her the deterioration was likely.

Hence, the blameless framer gets the blame unjustly, simply because he/she failed to convince the customer of the problem at the crucial moment that it could have been prevented.
 
Originally posted by Val:
She's having her embroidery remounted, rematted and non-reflective UV glass, and will bring in the others to put glass on them too.
I think I'll leave one of Mom's pieces as it is and in the shop for a why-you-need-glass lesson, and keep talking about the Grumble! Thanks everyone!
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Val, we too, do always suggest glass. The problem with non-reflective glass is that it tends to obsure the details in needle-art. They put so much time and effort into it, it deserves the best. Suggest Museum Glass. Maybe you can leave one of your Mom's samples unglazed and do one with Musuem Glass . Leave them both at your shop to enjoy, you'll probably like most of us spend more time there than at home anyhow!
 
I've never done it but I have never had to "refuse". I'm not sure if it got down to it, if I would mat it or not.

I do frame photos all the time with no glass if they have been laminated. If not I have used non-glare for the oil look.

I did get that line from the photographer the other day but I don't remember how I addressed it. I think I said "Well they often laminate them and those don't require glass. That’s not to say that you don't NEED glass. You could just go either way. However the mat does NEED glass." If that’s what I said, it worked.

I sooooo don't get the anti-non-glare glass crowd. ITs the one single most requested glass at my shop. Many swear by it. I only remember refusing to sell it one time on a shadow box. They want it, we got it, why not sell it?

Carry on
 
Oops, I meant museum glass. Isn't "non-reflective UV glass" the same as "museum glass"? I agree, regular non-glare gets too "fuzzy", especially with a double mat. Great for some things, not for others, and needlework is one.
Good advice about keeping Mom's beautiful needlework at the shop, so everyone can enjoy it, one with museum glass, one left as-is and unglazed.
And yes, jPaul, I do spend more time there than at home, expecially lately. Planned on being there today to paint, but came down with a nasty cold, or a case of the tireds, not sure which, so I will heed everyone's advice and stay home today. Painting can wait.
 
Years ago, I walked into a frame shop / gallery. There was a framed, matted print sitting on the floor up against an easle. No glazing. I asked why no glazing? I was told, "so the costomer can select the glazing they want". I quietly left moments later in disbelief of how they would display print this way to collect dust and get poked and prodded by customer's and kids fingers.

Another time, a frame shop had my finished piece out in the showroom ready for pickup. Some kid stuck is greasy finger on it. Windex and a rag was all that was needed to clean it.
John
 
Val, actually Tru-Vue does have a UV filtering non-glare glass called AR glass (Anti-Reflective).

It's cost is not that much cheaper than Museum glass and I wouldn't be surprised if it was dropped soon. I sell it, but rarely because someone who wants these qualities and is knowledgable enough to understands its features is an easy upsell to museum glass.

Dave Makielski
 
Dave,

To clarify - True-Vue AR is not sold as UV filtering as its inherent level of UV filtering - about 65% - is not up to conservation standards. Tru-Vue's "non-glare" is branded as Reflection-control and is available with or without UV protection. It helps to maintain a distinction between the etched (non-glare or reflection-control) and the coated (anti-reflection) glasses to avoid confusion in our description to customers.

Pat :D
 
Originally posted by Val:
...Isn't "non-reflective UV glass" the same as "museum glass"? I agree, regular non-glare gets too "fuzzy"...
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The terms used to describe glazing products are confusing, so here are a few tips:

1. There are two substrates suitable for framing; glass and acrylic. Styrene and acetate are not suitable.

2. There are three finishes that apply to both glass and acrylic -- clear (plain, regular, standard); non-glare (etched); and anti-reflection (optically coated). Acrylic has one more, the unique "AR" surface finish, meaning abrasion resistant (not to be confused with "AR" anti-reflection glass).

3. All three finish types are available with, or without, UV filtering.

4. UV filtering on glass is done with a coating; on acrylic, it is in the plastic formulation - not a coating. It's easy to find the UV-coated side of glass with a water-marker or by scratching a corner with a blade. To confirn whether you have UV filtering acrylic, you need an ultraviolet light source.

5. "Non-Glare" (etched) glazing has a microscopically-bumpy surface, which diffuses the image along with reflected light, which is why it looks "fuzzy". The more air gap under non-glare (etched) glazing, the fuzzier it gets.

6. Optically coated "anti-reflection" glass transmits 98% of light/image. Ordinary glass transmits 91%. Anti-reflection glass looks clearer than ordinary glass because it really is.

7. "AR" in Tru-Vue terminology means "anti-reflection", optically-coated glass, and it does not have a UV filter. Museum Glass has the same optical coatings, plus the UV filtering coating.

8. "AR" in Cyro acrylic terminology means "abrasion resistant", and this has nothing to do with reflections. Tru-Vue Optium Acrylic is made of Cyro AR-FF-3 with anti-reflection coatings. Museum Optium Acrylic is made of Cyro AR-OP-3 with anti-refelection coatings.

9. Static charge is an issue with acrylic glazings, except Optium and Museum Optium Acrylics. The anti-reflection coatings make the static charge of these acrylics similar to that of glass.

10. About cleaning: Glass should be cleaned with non-ammonia glass cleaner, not acrylic cleaner. Acrylic should be cleaned with acrylic cleaner, not glass cleaner. EXCEPTION: Tru-Vue Optium amd Museum Optium Acrylics have the same coatings as glass, so they should be cleaned with glass cleaner, not acrylic cleaner.

In New York there will be a two hour class on all of this, plus information about the light spectrum, handling & storage, cutting/edge finishing, acrylic scratch removal, and dealing with static. It's free, sponsored by Tru-Vue.
 
Oh, and one more thing:
Tru-Vue also offers "Perfect Vue", a uniquely-finished hybrid glass that has the "non-glare" etching on one side, and "anti-reflection" optical coating on the other side -- with or without their UV coating.

OK, still one more detail:
"Tru-Guard" is the name of the UV coating for all Tru-Vue UV-filtering glass products.
 
Dust in the high plains, industrial smog on the
costal areas, and household cooking oils everywhere, there is no where safe to display
paper or fabric-based materials without glazing.
The glazing should be held away from the framed
material, but it should be there.


Hugh
 
How nice it must be to have samples to show your customers! I went to the lv show and met with Tru-Vue and the rep bent over backwards to tell me she was sending me all these samples and even include a special shadow box museum glass sample. I did feel special. But alas, I have received nothing. I will have to make my own samples, shame on Tru-Vue.
 
Jim, thanks for the clarification...I can see clearly now. :D

What I was referring to is actually Tru-Vue's "Conservation Reflection Control".

Ruth...Call up True-Vue. Sometimes at shows things get lost. I'm sure they'd be happy to send samples to you.

Dave Makielski
 
Yeah, TruVue is very generous with their handout materials. I called when I first opened to get a set of mat corner samples. It was like Christmas opening the box. Pens, calculators, gloves, informational handouts. a set of glass samples, displayers. There hasn't been much time since the Las Vegas show, give them time to catch up. They are great people.
 
Originally posted by Jim Miller:
1. There are two substrates suitable for framing; glass and acrylic.
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sub·strate Audio pronunciation of "substrates" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sbstrt)
n.

1. The material or substance on which an enzyme acts.
2. Biology. A surface on which an organism grows or is attached.
3. An underlying layer; a substratum.
4. Linguistics. An indigenous language that contributes features to the language of an invading people who impose their language on the indigenous population.


I think you may have ment to say "There are two glazings suitable for framing . . . "

Wouldn't want a MCPF to be missunderstood. :D
 
Thanks for the info, Jim. Wow, that was almost as good as taking the class, which I can't, by the way, as New York is practically on the other side of the world from here.
I know Perfect Vue glass very well. It was our default glass of choice at M's, Very expensive, but nearly invisible. Once they started making it available in smaller lites, we sold a lot more of it. MUST wear cotton gloves. We called it the Pain-In-The-A**-Glass, because once a fingerprint got on it, it was nearly impossible to get off. Customers called a lot to ask how the heck do you clean that stuff? Had to Haaah on the glass and rub with a towel instead of using cleaner. But it's great for the invisible look.
So, Jim...is No.7 the answer to my question about non-reflecting UV glass is or is not the same as museum glass. If not, what IS "Museum Glass" then?? I'm still confused here!
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Jim is using the term "substrate" as it is used
in the conservation community. This usage seeks
to distinguish upper layers from lower, usually
supporting layers, as per your #3 definition. This
usage draws attention to the layered nature of so many glazing materials in use today.


Hugh
 
Thanks for your clarification, Hugh.

Originally posted by Baer Charlton:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Jim Miller:
1. There are two substrates suitable for framing; glass and acrylic.
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sub·strate ...
3. An underlying layer; a substratum.
...I think you may have ment to say "There are two glazings suitable for framing . . . "</font>[/QUOTE]Baer, your #3 definition is the one in reference here. That is, for all of our glazing products, there are only two suitable substrates (underlying layers) for the coatings; glass and acrylic.
 
Val, you may be confusing Museum Glass and Perfect Vue Glass.

My understanding is that Museum Glass has a UV coating on one side and an AR coating on the other.

Perfect Vue is (simplified view I think) Museum Glass with an Acid Etching similar to what's used on Reflection Control.

Hope that helped?
 
Why do these things have to be so confusing?

There are so many fancy names and descriptions that many framers don't / can't recall what has what coating, UV / non UV/ Glare / Non glare and combinations and varieties of all of the above!

All those names and descriptions should be really simplified / toned down or made less cryptic.

If one cannot tell what a kind of glass really is behind "Perfect Vue", for example, without consulting a manual each time a customer asks for glazing - how is one supposed to sell it?
 
Jim, the glass or acrylic in that case would be classified as the "carrier", as the glazing carrier in the case of ConClear is not "under" the coating but "in front"; but still the carrier.

Of course, this is one of those little discussions that classify us as "framing nerds".

And I'm sure you also wasted your time in High School taking those same stupid (to others) classes called "Semantics" and "Logic". And maybe one of those throwback classes like Mr Arnold's "Speaking Clearly" class....

But I do think, seriously, that it is important that the proper terms be used to avoid the kind of confussion that Paul is talking about.

The "Snappy Smart A$$" answer to Paul's question is, "If you don't know, don't sell."

The "Sadder, but truer" is "If you don't know, then you can't sell confidently or competently."

I think it would behove Tru Vue [are you listening Tru Vue], to publish a small booklet explaining in drawing form WHERE the coatings are, and EXACTLY WHAT they do.

Of course this may also cause them to look at the museum glass they they keep sending me with the "score other side this side toward artwork" printing on both sides so you can't read it. :D
 
Well Baer, I sure am glad you know all the nuances and varieties of every glass on the market.

But reading the above posts, I see many in a similar quandary where there is no real correlation between the glass name and what it really does, or what differentiates from another fancy name.
 
Baer,

I believe I read such a missive from TV about 4 years ago. Then, I cornered the rep and asked him to explain it. About three times later I was beginning to get it. And that was just TV!

Paul,

I suspect it would not be in their best interest (read glass competition) to make it too obvious. Then it might just come down to price!
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Originally posted by Paul N:
Why do these things have to be so confusing?
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Paul:

It's not as difficult as many framers think it is. Re-read my "tips" post above. If some of it doesn't make sense, ask specific questions and you'll get specific answers.

If the names are confusing, then disregard them and call the glazing choices by their generic terms. And in that case, you shold refer to the Tru-Vue catalog for the names that go with the descriptions.

Step-by-step, here's how to specify framing glazing:

1. Do you want glass or acrylic?
2. Do you want UV-filtering?
3. Do you want clear, etched non-glare, or optically coated anti-reflection?

If you call any framing glazing supplier and give the answers to those three questions, you will receive the glass you need.

How hard is that?
 
Thanks for your reply Jim.

Maybe I should clarify: What I find confusing is that sometimes the same term is used by different companies to denote 2 totally different meanings:

The "AR" term in your # 7 & 8 post is a perfect example.

The same applies to "Anti-reflection", "Reflection Control" and "Non-glare". They could easily be the same product but they are not.
 
Here's how that conversation would go with new customers in our shop:

1. Framer: Do you want glass or acrylic?
1A Customer: What?

2. Framer: Do you want UV-filtering?
2A Customer: What?

3. Framer: Do you want clear, etched non-glare, or optically coated anti-reflection?
3A Customer: What?

It really helps to have visuals for the explanation. Tru Vue's "Tassell" display is ok but we have better success with our homemade display, which consists of a nicely framed print with 3 pieces of glass (regular, non-glare, and museum) installed vertically. This dramatically shows the "look" of the 3 types. Below that, there's a Tru Vue "Protect Your Framed Art From UV Light Damage" display which we refer to when explaining the UV issue.
 
Originally posted by Paul N:
...What I find confusing is that sometimes the same term is used by different companies to denote 2 totally different meanings:

The "AR" term in your # 7 & 8 post is a perfect example...
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The two definitions for "AR" are easy to remember and keep separate:

For glass, "AR" is Tru-Vue's trade name for anti-reflection (optically coated) glass without the UV filter.

For acrylic, "AR" means abrasion-resistant.

It might help if you understand that until Tru-Vue and Cyro partnered last year, all of the glazing companies were competing, not comparing notes on nomenclature. I think this is the ONLY terms that has two meanings, fortunately.

... same applies to "Anti-reflection", "Reflection Control" and "Non-glare". They could easily be the same product but they are not...
This is getting easier, isn't it?
"Non-Glare" means etched.
"Anti-reflection" means optically coated.

"Reflection Control", is the trade name for Tru-Vue's non-glare (etched) glass finish.

Any more questions? Let's put all your glazing troubles to rest.
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Originally posted by Doug Gemmell:
...It really helps to have visuals for the explanation...
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Amen to that.

We use all kinds of glass on our gallery models, so they work as displays, too.

The tassle displays (we have both - for acrylic and glass) are handy and have great visual impact. But we often use the Tru-Vue 8-1/2" x 11" sample lites of glass mounted in black cardboard "frames". They are handy to hold over the customer's art, side-by-side, so she can see the visual difference in her own example. That is another Tru-Vue display you can get on request.
 
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