MAT MARGINS. Opinions please!

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Audrey Levins

MGF, Master Grumble Framer
Joined
Apr 9, 2001
Posts
545
Loc
San Antonio, TX
Hey Grumblers!

It's Audrey again, with another In Depth, Probing Question.
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I work with six other framers, and obviously I frame a lot of my own designs, as well as theirs; I can't help but notice that all but two seem inordinately fond of VERY slender mat margins.

How do those of you who do a lot of designing see mat margins? Frankly it drives me insane to see a 16X20 portrait with an inch and a half mat; it looks cheap and pointless and "ready-made," like the kind of art you buy at Hobby Lobby. I always encourage customers to get at LEAST a two/three inch mat; 90% of the time it looks a lot more professional--in my opinion it lets the artwork "breathe," particularly when the frame is thick and/or ornate. My rule of thumb is that the mat should be wider than the frame, at the very least, but I seem to be in the minority at my shop. LOL

What is you guys' opinion? And what kind of training do you give your employees, based on your own design opinions? (I know that every framer will inevitably develop their own "style," and that's fabulous--it's why people ask for certain employees--but what kind of guidelines do you suggest? Or do you, at all?)

After framing yet another piece of artwork today with 1 1/4" margins, I just had to log on to the Grumble and take a poll.
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I don't care what color your sofa is.
 
Audrey,

I like to use large mat margins, minimum 3” and up to 6” and even bigger.
I also recommend at least a mat margin 1 ½ times the width of the moulding I’m using.
Most frame orders I take in also get triple matted and some other embellishment. (Ex. fillet, v-grooves, French lines, marbled papers, etc.)
The sky is the limit.
Our entire staff uses their own ideas, but we are always discussing them with each other while we work.

Jack.
 
You won't go wrong starting with the width of the mat corner sample out of the rack. More than a few consumers will give you a hard time about it but the mumbo-jumbo about good design rhythms and ratios can win some over. The framed examples on your walls need to back you up in this matter or you're sunk. But as you may have found, your coworkers need to be on the same page or the clients will be baffled as to what the "real deal" is. Better brains than mine are sure to point out how much more money the shop will make for every extra half-inch of mat width in the frame sale. Good luck.
 
I too like wider mat margins. Generally a 2 1/2" margin is as narrow as I go (with some rare exceptions). I have found that lately the average mat margins in my designs are closer to 3 1/2" - 4" range. The customers seem to like the wider margins also, especially when combined with other enhancements.

jkol
 
Since there's been a lot of grumbling about trade mags recently, I thought I'd put in a plug for PFM -- this month there are a couple of articles on proportion & scale and mat widths.

I liked the drawings showing the mat widths a lot -- but whomever came up with a much larger weighted top mat width (not outer mat) than the lower side (what is often the weighted side)is beyond me. I know I've fitted a weighted mat upside down sometimes -- but on purpose?

I prefer to not design with downright skinny mats--but do try and look at proportion and appropriateness for the purpose of the job.
I, too feel that when the mat is too thin many designs look cheap or shoddy....and have forever eeked out the mat widths right in front of my clients!

I read somewhere that the mat should either be wider or thiner than the width of the frame---and I have found this to be true.
 
The Bainbridge 4" & Artique 4 1/4" corner samples make designing with larger mats much easier.... not to mention easier to grab than those samples that appear skinny.

Kathleen has 4 similar pieces of artwork framed on the "idea walls". The first has mats with 1.5 inch reveals & plain, skinny moulding; the 2nd with 3 inch reveal & upgraded moulding, the 3rd with 3 inch reveal, fillet & upgraded moulding; the 4th with 4 or 5 inch reveal, fillet & really spendy moulding. When someone wants a skinny mat, many times all it takes is to point out the examples.

And.... sometimes the artwork only needs a small mat.

Rick
 
There have been many posts lately complaining about coworkers and looking to us to justify those opinions. In my experience when I had that attitude it made problems for me. If the coworkers think they are being criticized they will respond with resistence. May I suggest another attitude. You might start remarking how proud of yourself you were when you upsold a client on a bigger mat and how wonderful you think that will look on the customers piece. Unless you are working for a large chain, you can trust that the boss knows who is selling the fillets, large, mats, expensive frames and french lines. He knows who is adding to the bottom line and who is not. Pat yourself on the back when you add to the bottom line. When others see you quietly and proudly producing they may decide to jump on the bandwagon with you. Try being part of the team. Ask the boss for help. Start remarks to the boss with I like working here and I would like to see your business grow...



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Timberwoman
AL
I cut the mat, I pet the =^..^= cat.
 
The next time your designing a framing job, set up a mat design, hand the customer a simple wood corner sample and watch what they do with it. They will set it on the mat corners so that 1 - 1 1/2 inches of mat is showing. There is a reason for this phenomenon. When your working with mat corner samples, showing narrower samples helps the customer visualize it around the image.( That makes me question the need for wider samples, but what do I know.)
At this point of your sales presentation, a narrower mat looks better to the customer (client) and is an easy sell.

Have framed samples of paper art hanging within eyesight of your design table. Have wide mats, narrow, medium, none, etc. displayed.

OK, here is a "Rule of Thumb". The wider the mat, the more important the picture will appear when it is displayed. The narrower the mat, the more it will look like it was cut so the picture will fit in the frame.

You have to explain these things to your customer, and show them the samples on the wall, so they can see for themselves.

There are many more issues when selecting mats for a picture that go beyond widths and colors. It's the mood, or feeling that the piece is conveying. Is it masculine, feminine, modern, antique, light and airy, dark and somber etc. etc. Your mat and frame choices have to keep this feeling alive when the job is complete.
When your at the design table, always have the picture facing the customer, it should always be facing away from you. This is not only so the customer can see it better, it is also so YOU can see it better. Looking at a picture with the top toward you, helps you to "see" it in the abstract. Your dealing with color and mood and balance, not the subject matter. Your designs will be better and the customer will think your considerate of them.

John
 
Hello fellow framers!

On the topic of mat margins, I absolutely refuse... let me say it again... REFUSE to use a mat width that is smaller than 3". Most mats that I use are 3 and a half or more. Being that I typically use a double, triple, quadruple mat, and a fillet or two, depending on what would look best for the piece, anything smaller than 3 would look rediculous. Double mats with a fillet ALWAYS get MORE than 3.. usually at LEAST a 4, depending on the size of the piece, 5 or 6. If the piece warrants it, do it. I have had customers say to me "You wont do it even if that's what I want?" and I reply, "No, I'm sorry, it's professionally incorrect, and we pride ourselves on our quality." If they are trying to fit the piece into a small space, I use double frames without matting. Perhaps a nice wider outer framer, with a stained burl frame inside, with a fillet to trim off the lip. Remember that when a customer takes YOUR frame home, others will be wondering were they framed it. Don't sell out your name for the sake of money.. make sure they PRAISE you.. I tell my customer's TRUST ME,and I stand firm. Perhaps sometimes I may come across snobbish or pushy, but I know my trade..and they keep coming back.
I wont even use a paper mat--suedes, linen, silk, and rag. THATS IT! <and folks, I don't even own the store! <G>

Happy Framing!
Egon
 
Back in the days when I had my own retail store I noticed the same problem with customers wanting mats that were too narrow for the art. So I tried an experiment and set up the wall surface behind the counter so I could put the customers print up on the wall and clip the mat and frame samples over a corner. Sure enough...the same customers started wanting wider mats. My theory is that when you have the art on the table the customer is looking at the scale of the table top and sizing the mats to suit. If you place the art on the wall it's a much larger scale and the customer can see the difference. It also helps if the customer is able to back off a bit and look at it from a normal viewing distance.
 
Thank you for all the justifications of my theory....
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WIDER IS BETTER.

Artlady, I appreciate your candor, but I have never openly critiqued my co-worker's designs; I am one of the newest framers at the shop, and I'm not stupid.
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Instinctively I like wider mats, and I do all I can to encourage them; I think my co-workers' main problem is that when people begin questioning the price of the framing, their first response is to shrink the mats to reduce the price....I don't ever offer or even suggest that, because to me it's pointless and it encourages people to think that skinny mats are an invaluable way to save money, instead of what they are--a shame. LOL I have seen a few pieces that look lovely with slim mats, but most of the time they look cheap and skimpy, like no one could afford more.

I actually had one lady today who had been encouraged by my co-worker yesterday to add a mat to a 16X20 piece....in a 16X20 frame! "He said we'd do an inch, and 3/4's would show--don't you think that would look NICE?" she said.

I nearly pulled my hair out.

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I don't care what color your sofa is.
 
audrey jim miller has a great site that answers your question.go to www.ARTFRAMEit.com .you could show it to your other framers and educate them without having to beat them over the head <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Audrey Levins:
Hey Grumblers!

It's Audrey again, with another In Depth, Probing Question. :)

I work with six other framers, and obviously I frame a lot of my own designs, as well as theirs; I can't help but notice that all but two seem inordinately fond of VERY slender mat margins.

How do those of you who do a lot of designing see mat margins? Frankly it drives me insane to see a 16X20 portrait with an inch and a half mat; it looks cheap and pointless and "ready-made," like the kind of art you buy at Hobby Lobby. I always encourage customers to get at LEAST a two/three inch mat; 90% of the time it looks a lot more professional--in my opinion it lets the artwork "breathe," particularly when the frame is thick and/or ornate. My rule of thumb is that the mat should be wider than the frame, at the very least, but I seem to be in the minority at my shop. LOL

What is you guys' opinion? And what kind of training do you give your employees, based on your own design opinions? (I know that every framer will inevitably develop their own "style," and that's fabulous--it's why people ask for certain employees--but what kind of guidelines do you suggest? Or do you, at all?)

After framing yet another piece of artwork today with 1 1/4" margins, I just had to log on to the Grumble and take a poll. ;)

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
 
Audrey,as you can see from previous message(and my first on the forum) i managed to make a mess of the reply.this a apology to any one else who looks at it and rolls their eyes.peter
 
Happy Fathers Day, all.

Wider mats,( within reason) for the most part will always look better.

Let's not forget what we are though, we are CUSTOM framers. We are not formula framers.
People come to us for several reasons, to get better looking framing, to have their artwork protected, to have a frame made the way THEY want it done, to have a frame made the way WE want it done. To work with us and come up with a design THEY can live with, to get something unique, or because their picture would not fit in a ready made frame. There are probably many more reasons than that, but you get the picture
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When your working with a customer I would advise that you climb on down off that horse and get at eye level with them. Your sales and your reputation will start a distinct upward movement.

Over the years I've seen several excellent frame shops go out of business because their owners refused to listen to their customers. They preferred to dictate, and insist, that they know much more than their customer, about what their customer would be happy with.

It is OK to have principals, in fact it's honorable, but remember, they are YOUR principals, NOT your customers. If you are going to be a dictator perhaps you should take the word "Custom" off your sign and advertising. You could do something classy with it like call yourself " A framer of pictures" or " A fine framer of artwork". That way you won't be misleading your customers.

John
 
All points well taken, particularly the last post. The client, while being mostly of the mind that "I don't know squat about art, but I know what I like", has in mind their space and decor when they walk in your door. The deficit you face is not knowing that space, only the art the client presents.

Just as in Graphic design, the thin line has its place along with the bold. There is much to be said for the thinner mat, in the correct application. The most important thing to remember is to balance your knowledge and preferences with the desires of the customer in order to produce a mutually satisfying (and financially rewarding) relationship.
 
I don't have a set formula that I use...the 16 X 20 that I put a 3" mat on one day, could get a 6" or a 1-1/2" mat the next time around, depending on the frame, customer, decor, and how I feel!
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I've been known to go 6" on a 5 X 7 and be thanked by the customer later.
As far as a rule of thumb, I'd say go with your gut...you're a framer!

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Seth J. Bogdanove, CPF
22 years framing and still loving it
 
I'm like the rest of you. I don't like skinny mats either. In most cases, the customer does not know the difference between a 1 3/4" mat and a 5" mat at the design table, but can see the difference when the work is finished. Our job as custom picture framers is to design a frame job that the customer will love, even if the customer really doesn't know what they want. Yes, sometimes we have to be mind readers. Plus, it is very hard for most customers to look at the corner samples and imagine what it will look like when the job is finished.
 
Hi Audrey,
If a customer insists on a small mat i.e., less than 1 1/2" suggest using a Filet instead. We have used this approach successfully when the customer insists they know what they want. Better price point for using a filet vs matboard. Bottom line however, as John says we can only inform and educate the customer, they are the ones to make the final decision. If, after showing and explaining the options, they still insist,just grin and bear it.
 
John--

I do see your point.
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However, I believe my frustration was with my fellow framers, not with the general public. I have never had anyone come back with something I designed and say, "You know what? I HATE these wide mats we discussed--I'd like something a lot thinner." They are thrilled with the way their artwork looks, and most people thank me for my guidance.

So no, I don't just get up on a high horse and demand that people pay for wider mats just because I happen to like them. LOL A customer who really wants a smaller mat/frame because of space limitations, or because they have many similar pieces that are matted this way, or for any reason, is of course encouraged to do whatever makes them happy. I do indeed understand the meaning of the word "custom."
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My main Grumble was that my fellow framers seemed to be obsessed with thinner mats, not the general public. From my own experience at the design table, I know just how pliable the average customer is, so it's the framer who is encouraging these tiny mats, not the customer.

I was just curious as to why, and what you guys' design philosophy on it is.
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Most of you seem to agree with me that wider is generally, although of course not always, better.

I think we can all agree that WHATEVER the customer eventually decides is what is right for their piece; my question was more concerning everyone's own design convictions.
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I don't care what color your sofa is.
 
I have found that as the "Framing
Consultants" experience and confidence grows so grows the mat width. Our software (frameready) allows us to enter a default mat width, which is 3.25". I have been told that for every inch of mat width you gain 10% of profit.

Wider mats just look better on most items, make the shop more money, and give the art work a more impactfull appearance on the wall.

I would suggest going out of your way to encourage and compliment your fellow framers when they do sell larger mats. Anything that you and/or your employer can do to build confidence in your staff will benefit the whole shop.
 
"I would suggest going out of your way to encourage and compliment your fellow framers when they do sell larger mats. Anything that you/or your employer can do to build confidence in your staff will benefit the whole staff".

I could not agree with you more. There is always more than one way to approach a situation. Approach is so important. This is an opportunity for Audrey to work on her management skills. There is nothing better than a cooperative staff.

Besides we could all use a pat on the back and a good job comment now and then.

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Timberwoman
AL
I cut the mat, I pet the =^..^= cat.
 
Hi Audrey, my response about horses was aimed at another person who also responded. I also addressed why your fellow framers push narrower mats.
When your working with corner samples, a narrower mat always looks better to the customer. It is easier for a customer to visualize it going around the picture when a narrow sample is used. Consequently a narrow mat is a lot easier to sell than a wider mat.
With a wide mat you have to take the time to explain why wider looks better on the finished piece. Usually you have to show the customer some framed samples of wider mated finished pieces. All this takes effort on the salespersons part.
I think your fellow framers are just lazy and more inclined to complete an easy sale than a correct sale.

John
 
High horses, narrow mats and Audrey puting it bluntly we often get off subject a bit and really don't care what your original question was. is! Have a good one.
 
JRB... I have a feeling that when you were talking about high horses your were talking about me, and my lack to back down. Yes, we are there to "make the client" happy. BUT.. we are also picture framers, consultants, and PROFESSIONALS. I don't get pushy with people, and if I made it sound that way, that's not the way it is. We don't frame with paper--if we can help it-- we don't frame with small mats, and we refuse to do a frame if we think it's structurally too small for the piece. We have standards, and we aren't about to compromise those standards just to make $80 or LESS on a frame selection which looks hideous with OUR sticker on the back. I'm sorry, but if they want that, go somewhere else--go to walmart, kmart, mr. Basement framer, frame and save... wherever. I wouldn't ask an Amish furniture maker to cut corners on quality and professionalism just to save me a few bucks. I can appreciate your view point, this is just how we operate.. and our clients love us!


Just my thoughts.
Egon
 
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