Mat carving ...

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CAframer

CAframer

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
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Anyone adept at artistic FREE-FORM mat carvings? I'm not talking about what you can do on the Wizard. I can do that just fine. I'm talking about stuff the Wiz can't do because of size, shape, etc.

I need to cut representations of several objects from the art that is being framed. i.e. similar in concept to remarques.

I've got a full complement of X-Actos, and a cube cutter but its ages since I've used it, and I never have practiced enough to be expert.

Any suggestions on technique or possibly subcontracting would be welcome!

Thanks in advance.

P.S. I don't have a Wizard Debosser ... but wondering if this might be an option. Thoughts?
 
I've watched Brain Wolfe do it with an exacto knife. The key besides lots of practice was holding you hand down on the same pivot point and unlike cutting a mat, you want to take multible passes when carving.

He has some books out and maybe you can contact him through Wizard International on their website. If he does sub it out he might be kinda expensive, but he is the master:smiley:
 
Eclipse produce a couple of router mat cutters.... unbelievable results.
what are you trying to carve?
Mask may be your option?
 
Baer Charlton said:
Eclipse produce a couple of router mat cutters.... unbelievable results.
what are you trying to carve?
Mask may be your option?
Click to expand...
  1. Eclipse 'router mat cutters' - don't have one! - is this different to an Eclipse CMC?
  2. These are Wysocki prints - he wants me to pick items / characters from the prints and carve into mat. Examples include owl in flight, horse & buggy, certain people. Apparently he used to know a mat carver who did similar items for him, but he has long gone. He said that the previous mat carver started out simple but over the years developed an amazing skill. He is bringing me some samples. He has had me do several interesting pieces and is a valuable client. So I would like to please him. Plus I would like to develop another skill.
  3. What do you mean 'mask'?
 
CAframer said:
. Apparently he used to know a mat carver who did similar items for him, but he has long gone. He said that the previous mat carver started out simple but over the years developed an amazing skill. He is bringing me some samples. He has had me do several interesting pieces and is a valuable client. So I would like to please him. Plus I would like to develop another skill.
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Andrew, make sure that he understands that your experience is limited and not going to be up to someone who had taken years to develop that skill. He should understand by his own words, but his expectations might still be too high.
 
j Paul said:
Andrew, make sure that he understands that your experience is limited and not going to be up to someone who had taken years to develop that skill. He should understand by his own words, but his expectations might still be too high.
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Thanks ... Already done that!
 
I used to carve some designs and calligraphic text in mats. Nothing comparable to Brian Wolfe's work, but my customers were thrilled. Still, today I probably would not consider hand-carving for the application you describe.

If I wanted to simulate some detail of the artwork, I would treat it as a logo: scan it, trace it in Corel Draw, and convert it to a cut file. That way a CMC could cut any design in a mat, in any size. Using my Valiani MatPro 150i, it could be cut as a series of openings or as V-grooves, or debossed.

I'm sure you could do something like that with a Wizard, Gunnar, or other up-to-date CMC, as well. If you don't have one of those, you probably know framers who do.
 
lots of #11 blades and have fun. You can cut whole forms out or do it in v-groove lines (you do not need to go to the table with these)
small curves take the most practice not to get a ripple, skip, kind of jiggle in the cut. If you break even a tiny bit of the point toss the blade and get a new one. Change blades often. Do trials on several kinds of mats some cut more easily and smoothly than others.
 
Thought you might be interested ... I was! My client brought in an example of what his old framer used to do ...beautiful work ... very fine, very delicate ... not the sort of thing you can do on a Wizard!

IMG_2598.jpg


IMG_2597.jpg


IMG_2596.jpg
 
Wow. That's good work. After taking a class with Brian Wolf years ago I tried some carving but was never really satisfied with the results. Brian just had "the touch", using a regular X-Acto knife and holding it in a particular way with the blade resting on the end of his ring finger. I've done some free-form openings using the Dexter Mini blade holder which worked out pretty well. Now I just let the Wizard do the work. Better accuracy for sure. But, as you say, not designed to do some of the subtle designs shown with dynamics of thickness etc.
:cool: Rick
 
CAframer said:
My client brought in an example of what his old framer used to do ...beautiful work ... very fine, very delicate ... not the sort of thing you can do on a Wizard!
Click to expand...

That certainly is beautiful work, obviously done by a skilled craftsman. He may rival Brian Wolf.

Cuts of that sort actually could be made on some CMCs. I believe the Valiani CMC in my shop would cut with adequate precision, after the designs were scanned and imported into Corel Draw or created in the program, and then converted to cut files.

Trouble is, first the designs would have to be produced by someone with the artistic talent to create them. But once the artistic work is done, anyone proficient with Corel Draw (or whatever design program is compatible with the CMC) could do the technical work.
 
The close up images would be adequate for a test on a CMC. Perhaps Mr Miller would have time to take them into Corel and give it a try. It would be highly interesting - might just be time for CMC's to move up to a higher level.
 
Bandsaw said:
The close up images would be adequate for a test on a CMC. Perhaps Mr Miller would have time to take them into Corel and give it a try. It would be highly interesting - might just be time for CMC's to move up to a higher level.
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The actual cut size is very small. I know my Wiz can't do anything like this. Would like to know if another CMC can.

I looked at the actual cutart thru a 16x loupe. The craftsmanship is unbelievably good. Amazing.
 
Jim Miller said:
Cuts of that sort actually could be made on some CMCs. I believe the Valiani CMC in my shop would cut with adequate precision, after the designs were scanned and imported into Corel Draw or created in the program, and then converted to cut files.
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Jim, can that machine do the variation in line thickness such as the way it tapers to a point at the ends of the curls? Seems this would be tantamount to a varying-width v-groove.
:cool: Rick
 
Rick Granick said:
Jim, can that machine do the variation in line thickness such as the way it tapers to a point at the ends of the curls? Seems this would be tantamount to a varying-width v-groove.
:cool: Rick
Click to expand...

Rick:

I'm speculating here. I have not produced artistic designs like this but from my experiences with logos, animals, and other imported shapes, I'd say it can be done.

Variations in line thickness would not be difficult, I believe. Yes, I agree it should be like cutting a variable-width v-groove, but the shape would be cut as an opening, not as a V-groove. That is, the blade would go up one side and down the other, following the design just as you or I would cut it with a #11 X-Acto knife.

I have cut 1/4" diameter circles on my CMC, so the small radii should be OK. If the size of the shape is such that full beveled edges will not work, the blade depth could be set at about .75 mm, and then the cut-outs could be lifted off, leaving the shape in the mat board's core color.

This sort of detail mat-cutting is on my to-do list, but I'm still on the low end of the learning curve with Corel Draw. Each shape's cut-file might take an hour or more to create in the program, but then it would always be there, and scale-able, and rotate-able, and skew-able.

The technology in the frame shop these days just boggles my mind.
 
To get the varying depths feathering out to a point you need software that will enable ramping in and out of the cuts and z depth control, not just down pressure. You need a full z axis machine to do this.
I can do it on my cnc router but not with my wizard. I actually talked to wizard about this option a couple of years ago before I bought mine and they said no it would not do it.
Even varying width of v-groove still stops with a blunt end.
Randy
 
Hi guys,

Based on one of your photos Andrew, I was able to work my magic and punch this out of a Gunnar F1 CMC...

I tried to use similar mat colors for comparision...

So hopefully that will answer the "can this be cut on a CMC" question a bit...

Sorry - don't have time to do them both... :)

Cheers,

Jared
 

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Randy is correct - transitioning properly from a closed to open v-groove requires full control of the Z / plunge axis. CMCs can attempt it but the closed bits are cut at full depth, and are especially problematic when they abut other nearby cuts and compromise the structural integrity of the matboard..

However, I've been pretty successful at getting extreme detail with a Wizard by cutting the entire design from the front as a v-groove and at v-groove depth (using PathTrace and the "outgroove" bevel type). The open portions I simply peel the surface paper and as much of the core plys out as I can, and then "finish" the cuts by hand with an exacto - the CMC cut creates a nice guide and the critical cut along the surface paper is nice and clean.

I've also done embellishments by hand on normal openings - cut a v-groove design near a normal opening, and then connect the two by hand in a few strategic areas. So you could take the nice cut Jared just made, and then extend by hand the bottom open groove into another closed v-grove cut by the CMC. Sometimes that's even faster than drawing it out in CAD or PathTrace.
 
Randy and Steve, I'm having difficulty understanding the need for variable blade depth. With fixed blade depth, I believe that when the width of the v-groove narrows to a hairline, the cuts would simply cross below the visible surface of the mat. In cross-section, that should look like an "X" has been cut, with a narow fallout on the face and a wider fallout on the back. When the width of the v-groove gets to more than twice the bevel's width, then the cut would show as an open v-groove.

I understand the part about through-cuts crossing on the back and weakening the structural integrity of the board, but maybe the designs could be configured to minimize that issue.

If it makes any difference here, my CMC cuts everything face-up.

I'll try to work this concept on the machine later today or tonight.
 
I am impressed and dismayed

Andrew I am impressed at the intrigue carving on that work , But i didn't notice any Bevels . Are they done on Black Core and as such the bevel isn't too visible?

Also I am trying to get some ides of the scale/ Size of the Ducks , but more importantly the Light house since the real amazeing cut is the Flag on it.

Way back when i was Framing i did some cuts very similar to the Ducks and actually posted them In a Photo Gallery "Buddy's Picture Gallery" but I was horrified to see that that link doesn't exist any longer and as such all the images are gone forever since the actual work was washed away in Katrina along with the Photos.

What i did was cut some doves and Blue Birds to accent a couple of Cross stitched angels that had the same Birds in the pattern.

I agree with the comments that Wizard didn't default to small enough Images ( seldom less that 2 inches and hardly ever below 1 inch and the birds where cumulatively smaller than that.

I used to use a Dexter Mini cutter to cut from the rear and then trim out the UNDERCTS with an exacto knife from the front. I did this because the Dexter could leave indentations on the face or smear any pencil markings as i cut. I had to remeber never to come any closer than 3/16 in. to another cut , when cutting on the reverse less that overlap. I may have a disc from a former customer whose work I was always given free rain to design . ( Unfortunately she is also no longer stitching since she has a neurological disorder and moved away as well.

But I f i find any and can transfer them i will let you know what MY work look like.
But I totaly agree that work is wonderfull.

BUDDY
 
BUDDY said:
Are they done on Black Core and as such the bevel isn't too visible?

Also I am trying to get some ides of the scale/ Size of the Ducks , but more importantly the Light house since the real amazeing cut is the Flag on it.
Click to expand...


Yes - black core

The body of each grouping was maybe 2" x 2" or perhaps a little more.

Very tiny flag. Truly great work!
 
Here are photos of an "engrossing" design I created from scratch in Corel Draw Sunday afternoon. I would have scanned and imported a design, but could not find one I liked.

When I tried to cut completely through the mat, the ovals fell out (Duhhh), so I tried several cutting heads; 40 degrees, 45 degrees, 90 degrees, and the debossing head. With some "tweaking" I think this sort of design could be quite useful. It can be scaled or rotated, of course. I guess the minimum size would be about 4" x 1-1/2" if cut, but debossing might look good as small as 3" length.

Designs that are more linear, which could be cut as V-grooves parallel to mat openings, would be more useful, because they could be scaled to any size and used horizontally or vertically. Corner cutouts would be handy for V-grooves, too.
 

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Wow, those look great. For the ones that are cut as opposed to debossed, I guess you would have to align, place and affix each one of the little "puzzle pieces" within the design onto a bottom mat. Would you just use dots of glue for doing that? Reminds me of Brian Wolf's old mosaic technique for doing deco corners by inlaying little chunks of mat with two adjacent corners reverse bevelled. I think they were called "inlaid onlays".
;) Rick
 
Yes Rick, it would be a mosaic if cut completely through the board. I had trouble with that in these first cuts, though...the cutout pieces fall into the blade path and get sliced. I will experiment with a temporary adhesive to keep the cutouts in position, then they could be spot-glued to a background mat of any color, which would show where the white shows in the photos.
 
Or maybe this would be a situation where cutting from the back would be an advantage. If your CMC is mounted in a relatively flat position (unlike mine ;)) maybe the bevels would keep the "fallouts" from shifting around as much.
:cool: Rick
 
In a way, it is a little disturbing to see that someone can spend years mastering a skill, that sets him apart from all others, then discovering that a machine can replace that entire effort.

It also seems that the Gunnar F1 CMC is the way to go if you want to be able to do that. http://www.gunnar-europe.com/index.php?id=9

John
 
John's comment is what I was thinking. We all love and embrace technology, but somehow, knowing how to program the machine to do it doesn't equate to this work or Brian's.

We could probably duplicate the Sistine but it's just not the same.
 
MerpsMom said:
We could probably duplicate the Sistine but it's just not the same.
Click to expand...

Your lament about giving up the manual skills of framing certainly is true, but the consequences of that truth are nearly all good.

Similar concerns probably came up when powered miter saws and choppers replaced manual sawing with a miter box. And again when straight-line matcutters replaced cutting mats with a hand held knife and a straightedge.

Historically, new tools exceed manual skill, in that they produce results that are more durable, more professional, more efficient, faster, or more profitable than most us could ever accomplish manually. Here we go again with innovative machines that replace and exceed manual skill.

Probably fewer than 1 in 100 framers possess hand-cutting skill that would be considered proficient and professional. Perhaps only 1 in 1000 could compare with the artistic results of Brian Wolf. But with investment in a CMC and development of the skills required to use it, all of us can profit from the resuts.

For most of us, framing these days is more about earning a living than about showing off our manual skills. Tools enable us to accomplish more and better results in less time, which translates to improved profit. I'm all for that.
 
Compo replaced hand carving as the general rule in 1830,
Paper mats replaced linen gesso mats in 1850
Stick moulding replaced crafted frames about 1860s
Choppers replaced miter box and craftsmanship about 1890
"rail cutters" replaced hand cutting about 1920
Pre-finished replaced finish knowledge 1950s (sorry folks, but Black is not a finish)
Production stops on rail cutters replaced layout knowledge and the weighted bottom disappear as well as the knowledge as to why... 1970s
1980s brought us the chop saw mentality..... and the need for knowledge about wood disappeared.
CMC leveled the field for mat cutting skills and the hand skill knowledge went away.
Chop service in the 1970s started the wave of "making a frame" is picking up a phone and saying "hi, I'd like to order a chop".... and the knowledge of cutting, shaping, finishing, toning, aging, wood species movement and qualities went away.

When picture framing is totally reduced to push a button to design, push a button to mfg, swipe the card and funds are automatically transferred, and the frame job handed naked (because paper and plastic or outlawed) into the customers thumb drive.... oh did I mention that all knowledge and skills, in the pursuit of the all mighty profit, have been eliminated..... oh wait, then the job can be totally off-shored and never have to decimate a forest in southeast Asia again, never have to ship supplies burning 120lbs of oil an hour, and never have to risk a paper/razor/glass cut again.
And we can change the Picture Framers Grumble to Out of Work Grumble.

I hear a lot of grumbling and hate towards the Big Boxes . . . but without the skills, knowledge, talent, understanding, apprentice style training, hands-on classes..... all the "profitable" framing will be at Micheal's and JoAnne's.
 
Baer Charlton said:
Compo replaced hand carving as the general rule in 1830,
Paper mats replaced linen gesso mats in 1850
Stick moulding replaced crafted frames about 1860s
Choppers replaced miter box and craftsmanship about 1890
"rail cutters" replaced hand cutting about 1920
Pre-finished replaced finish knowledge 1950s (sorry folks, but Black is not a finish)
Production stops on rail cutters replaced layout knowledge and the weighted bottom disappear as well as the knowledge as to why... 1970s
1980s brought us the chop saw mentality..... and the need for knowledge about wood disappeared.
CMC leveled the field for mat cutting skills and the hand skill knowledge went away.
Chop service in the 1970s started the wave of "making a frame" is picking up a phone and saying "hi, I'd like to order a chop".... and the knowledge of cutting, shaping, finishing, toning, aging, wood species movement and qualities went away.

When picture framing is totally reduced to push a button to design, push a button to mfg, swipe the card and funds are automatically transferred, and the frame job handed naked (because paper and plastic or outlawed) into the customers thumb drive.... oh did I mention that all knowledge and skills, in the pursuit of the all mighty profit, have been eliminated..... oh wait, then the job can be totally off-shored and never have to decimate a forest in southeast Asia again, never have to ship supplies burning 120lbs of oil an hour, and never have to risk a paper/razor/glass cut again.
And we can change the Picture Framers Grumble to Out of Work Grumble.

I hear a lot of grumbling and hate towards the Big Boxes . . . but without the skills, knowledge, talent, understanding, apprentice style training, hands-on classes..... all the "profitable" framing will be at Micheal's and JoAnne's.
Click to expand...
Gee,that actually makes me happy to be a "dinosaur"..even if I do make up my own rules,techniques,and recipes... L.
 
Wow, Baer really summarizes it well...

Imagine how all the old blacksmiths making horseshoes felt, when Henry Ford started rolling out the first affordable motor cars off his assembly line?

Just one major industry changing revolution Baer missed in his impressive list.... In the late 1970's Cassese invented the world's first v-shaped wedge and underpinner - which has revolutionized our industry to a point where an "unskilled" framer can now make well more than 6 frames a day... which was actually an achievement if you had to rely on "drilling and nailing..."

I have thing but the greatest admiration and respect for our industry's most talented and creative craftsman, like Brian Wolf (and Baer!).... They're awesome! That artisan talent & skill must not be forgotten, but understandably... it will be harder to make a living out of this type of talent in the future, even if you possess the rare skill to create such.... because the world keeps changing, technology catches up too fast, and consumer expectations change as well.

Keep in mind, these "lost skills and jobs" actually make way for new skills and job fields to emerge...... for example, which you consider hand mat carving" making way for CMC's - some the "new" talent and job fields that are created out of this are: mechanical engineers, software programmers, graphic designers, technical support, electronic engineers, web developers, etc, etc...

Here's some advice I've heard Gordon Ramsay quote many times in his Kitchen Nightmares program to numerous owners of crumbling restaurants....

"Change with the times, or the times will change you..."
 
Jared Davis CPF GCF said:
.... In the late 1970's Cassese invented the world's first v-shaped wedge and underpinner - which has revolutionized our industry to a point where an "unskilled" framer can now make well more than 6 frames a day... which was actually an achievement if you had to rely on "drilling and nailing..."
Click to expand...

Sorry, I have to strongly disagree with that one. My guess is that you have never done any serious drilling and nailing. When I used that method of joining frames, it usually took less than a couple of minutes to go around the frame. In the frame factories, the guys doing slip joins could join over 100 three inch wide frames in a shift. They would then be sent to the touch up person who did that job in less than two minutes per frame.

When I first started my business I "drilled and nailed" mini frames when I didn't have framing to do. I sold them to craft stores for $1.50 each, which generated me over $300.00 per month. My rent on that shop was $125.00 per month in those days.

Todays framers can join considerably more frames than that, using underpinning machines.

John
 
I agree partially

I agree that Technological advances did and will make the less skilled more competitive and even Brian Wolf has joined forces with the CMC manufacturers. But CMCs and other advanced pieces of equipment are still tools and the best tool in the hands of someone who doesn't perfect the necessary skills will not rendor as good/ equal products of those who do, CMCs included.

That said did anyone notice that as good as the CMC is their defults aren't able to produce as small an image as some do with Exacto knifes. ( look real close at the Light house and realize it is 2 in at biggest) the notches and flag are much smaller . Unless i am mistaken the CMC blades won't allow turns that small with out some "CREATIVE/ IMMAGINATIVE improvisations and then CMC makers don't suggest you do them.


I remeber seeing a Computerized Frame assembler at one of my last shows that would cut, assemble and stack BATCHES of frames . But I doubt very seriously if it can turn out the Imaginative wood work of Baer .Nor would that fit the reason for it's ability.

IMHO the best tool still can't produce what a Imaginative and skilled CRAFTSMAN can . Ther is a huge difference between PRODUCTION ( even improved) and Creativity in the same hands of those who care to perfect their Craft. But if we choose to compete on the level of Mass Producers ( wham bam thank you Mame) Money Grabbing BBs then you best give up now because there will always be Improvements.

BUDDY

PS I am still trying to post an image of my years ago work in which I cut multple Doves in a mat that where less than 1 in total size and they had segments to each. And I couldn't hold a candle to the likes of Brian or any of his imitators.

This reminds me of a Slogan a dear old friend and coworker used when i worked at GM.

he said," I may not have seen it done FASTER but I sure have seen it done BETTER>"
 
Jared Davis CPF GCF said:
Wow, Baer really summarizes it well...

Imagine how all the old blacksmiths making horseshoes felt, when Henry Ford started rolling out the first affordable motor cars off his assembly line?

Just one major industry changing revolution Baer missed in his impressive list.... In the late 1970's Cassese invented the world's first v-shaped wedge and underpinner - which has revolutionized our industry to a point where an "unskilled" framer can now make well more than 6 frames a day... which was actually an achievement if you had to rely on "drilling and nailing..."

I have thing but the greatest admiration and respect for our industry's most talented and creative craftsman, like Brian Wolf (and Baer!).... They're awesome! That artisan talent & skill must not be forgotten, but understandably... it will be harder to make a living out of this type of talent in the future, even if you possess the rare skill to create such.... because the world keeps changing, technology catches up too fast, and consumer expectations change as well.

Keep in mind, these "lost skills and jobs" actually make way for new skills and job fields to emerge...... for example, which you consider hand mat carving" making way for CMC's - some the "new" talent and job fields that are created out of this are: mechanical engineers, software programmers, graphic designers, technical support, electronic engineers, web developers, etc, etc...

Here's some advice I've heard Gordon Ramsay quote many times in his Kitchen Nightmares program to numerous owners of crumbling restaurants....

"Change with the times, or the times will change you..."
Click to expand...
IRONY..... farriers are in demand more now than ever,it`s a dying skill that not so many young people want to learn now....Even though there are still millions of horses needing(expensive!!!) shoeing.The farriers making/installing shoes now are very busy.....L. (BTW. if anyone can do something doesn`t it lose at least a little value? The rare and unusual are always treasured....)
 
A good friends daughter took a ferrier's course about 7 years ago. Still Ferriers, but it only brings her in about $50K a year. Her real money is black smithing.... which brings her in about $180-200k a year in Los Angeles area.

Of course it pays to be connected with the studios and those rich people.....
but she doesn't want to even speak to those people. She still holds a grudge with me that I showed her my rubber hammer with a fiberglass armiture that was in her favorite (then) movie.. ruined her life I did... she really thought those people were being really killed in those movies. :icon11:
Then her dad showed her a real "snuff" movie.... she loved it..... I was the snuffee. :D Yeah, she still has it.
 
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