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Rosalyn

CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
Joined
Sep 22, 2003
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374
Loc
Kansas
I was just wondering what some thoughts are on various mat board 'brands' and why you 'shop' where you do. I'm getting ready to make another mat board order and have never heard any one talking about the particular company where I order mat board from. I got catalogs from some of the companies that are discussed here and done some price comparison.

Are Bainbridge and Crescent rag mats equally as good?

Everyone talks about Bainbridge Artcare for mount board. . . is it better than Crescent rag mount board?

Is there a main website for Bainbridge that describes all their products?
 
Mike - Thanks for the site. Can you tell me why you prefer Bainbridge? I've only used Crescent since beginning my business 2 1/2 years ago.
 
I use a combination of Bainbridge, Crescent, Tru-Vue and Artique. If I could only use one, it would be Bainbridge, and here's why.

They have the largest selection of conservation boards - the Alphamats and Alpharags.

Every distributor I have ever used carries Bainbridge, as well as Crescent. Some have dropped, or never carried, Miller/Tru-Vue, and Artique only comes from Larson-Juhl.

I believe in the Artcare Zeolite technology (though I could not personally prove that it works.)

The color wheel system that Kaye Evans put together for Bainbridge has drastically simplified the process of mat color selection and design for me.

There are many things I like in the Crescent line and the company itself has had - and continues to have - some of my favorite people working in it.

But, if I had to choose one, it would be Bainbridge.
 
When I first started out I opted for Crescent ‘cause (at the time) they were about 10¢/ sheet cheaper and had a wider selection of colors. And I liked the thought of having a cotton based product rather than chemically treated wood chips.

It’s sort of like eatin’ peanuts – it’s awful hard to stop once you get going. Now that I’ve got a full inventory of Crescent, I don’t have the space to stock Bainbridge, too, and the phase out process would be headache. … and, what the heck, Crescent ain't bad.
 
I offer all the brands. I stock very few due to space constraints so it realy doesn't matter which company I use. I seem to order the most of True Vue though, not deliberately, just ends up that way.

I recently added all the Crescent Selects and Artiques and I have to say, I need to narrow down duplicate colors though. As an example, all my red colors are about 6 inches deep. I usually grab a color and fan through them. Dang, the greens are probably 8 inches across. I think as my challenge for the week I will thin out one color group each day.....surely you don't need a 6 inch pile of reds....
 
Kathy, if you are a true sample junkie - and I suspect you are - just make more color categories.

Instead of "reds" try "red tints," "red tones," and "red shades." Then "red-orange tints," "red-orange tones" and "red-orange shades." By the times you get to the "red-violet" tints, tones and shades, you'll have that pile down to a manageable size and you can compare samples to see where the real duplications are.

Very few of the Crescent Select colors are unique, so you can use those when you need a price-point alternative to the Crescent rag boards.
 
I started out with Crescent rags only but as time went on, they kept discontinuing colors and the new ones weren't enough to make up for those lost. Looking at Bainbridge, they have WAY more choices of colors than Crescent so I switched over. I found out later that Bainbridge will actually buy back your Crescent stock if you are switching over to their stuff. I had already made a deal with my supplier so it was too late. Check with your Bainbridge rep if you want to switch over. For some reason it seems to make them very happy.
 
Yeah, I have to say Ron, sorting them by tones and tints is the answer. Funny you said that because I did just go through the reds and sorted pinky from orangey etc. My mind just boggles when I start doing that though, then I find myself snagged on whether this is a red orange or a orange red and before you know it half the day is gone....yadayda.

The absolute worst colors to sort out and catgorize is the browns and beiges, too many variances there......I know Bainbridge has theirs labeled on the back by colorwheel, I will use that as my guide, but, oh my, does it tire me out making those decisions......

Part of me(the quizzical part)wonders if it would be possible to get down to one 36 inch long rack of choices. I currently have 72 inches, that would probably be a challenge.....

[ 11-11-2003, 05:10 PM: Message edited by: Emibub ]
 
Framah - I'd love to have a rep of any kind. How do I get one? I've just been thumbing through the catalogs/websites and ordering what I thought I needed . . .

If Bainbridge would buy back my Crescent (of course I'd give my local art teacher first dibs on anything) I'd certainly be interested in going Bainbridge because of what I've read about the archival quality, etc. I'm sure Crescent rag is good too but as has been pointed out, there's not as many colors as Bainbridge and people like colors . . .!
 
Oh, yeah, another question . . . do those who have several brands put all the corner samples together "reds" "pinks" together or do you keep the brand seperate.
 
Rosalyn,

I do keep my diffrent boads separate. ie: Crescent Select is separate from Crescent Rag, Bainbridge is all separate, True Vue etc.

Now having said that..............I really like Crescent Rag and Select. I also have gotten used to the Bainbridge colors. I think Bainbridge does have more color choices right now. I also use True Vue and some Artique.

Here is what I like or dislike about each brand...

1. Crescent Rag does have great colors. I started framing with Crescent and only used Crescent for many years. It cuts like a dream because it is a little softer. I also like the rounded corners that indicate 40x60 boards.

2. Crescent Select has nice colors. It makes a great price point alternative. It also has rounded corners for 40x60 boards.

3. Regular cresenet mat..........yuck, hate the stuff......don't even have samples to bother with. I just use the specifier if necessary.

4. Bainbridge Archival boards are great for color selection and trends. They don't cut as smoothly as Rag. I have to use a #15 blade to get good cuts. However, I like the fact that the board is a little harder and the bevels don't ding up as quickly. However, I am still using the old 2 3/4" samples because I have yet to receive 4" samples without being charged.

5. True Vue samples are good to have on hand because everyboard comes in a white core, acid free, black core and 40x60. An absolute must have because so many times I forget to check to see if a board comes 40x60 oversize.

6. Artique. I take them or leave them. They have some nice colors. However, when you look closely at the bevel, it looks like there is a line running down the center of the bevel. That has always bothered me for some reason. They also come from overseas and I like to buy local whenever possible.

Candy
 
In my case it is a matter of availability. The source I use for mats carries Crescent and if they don't have it in stock (about a 15 minute drive for me), they'll get a special order shipment once a week. I do have a habit of ordering double the amount I need in an effort to build inventory and not to have to make a return trip if I make an error in cutting. Until another product becomes as convenient as Crescent, it shall remain Crescent for me.
 
So - if you were a SMALL time framer with a SMALL time shop area would you chose to carry only one brand?

Considering one must order 25 sheet of something everytime I get a bit stressed out at how to fill the rest of the order. . . and try to recoup the cost . . . I'm doing something wrong I think.
 
Not one has mentioned the brand of Rising or LeVue (is that right). So I shall throw those in for the fun of it. It took me a while being in art first to use acid free boards-like most other cheapies. Now I am a good boy and use all acid free if using a mat. I tend to use the cheapest because I am a poor poor boy, most of you know this. So I do my best. I like Tru Vue/Miller for the 40x60 aspect. I think Bainbridge and Crescent do overlap on colors, so if it were my choice I would eliminate those. I don't have a preference at this point.

d
 
A few years ago I carried both Crescent and Bainbridge; but I figured out that I was adding great percentages to my cost of goods. So I dropped Crescent paper mats but kept the Moorman suedes. And expanded the line of Bainbridge Alphamats and specialty colors. Before moving at the end of last December, the Bainbridge rep came and "bought" my Moorman suedes (he took them out of the bins and let me donate them to the public school art departments). Once I was all set up in the new location, Bainbridge shipped my colors of choice. I like Bainbridge suede and fabrics, but I loved not having to move all those suede mats.
 
Rosalyn, I guess I don't fully understand your dilemma.

Are you ordering directly from Crescent or Bainbridge? That would be very unusual, though it used to be more common.

Most distributors carry at least those two lines, if not one or two others. Normally they don't care if you order an assortment of brands and they rarely have minimum quantities of a particular board.

If they are shipping UPS, the damage can be minimized by ordering full boxes - usually 25 sheets - but many distributors will fill a box with fomecore, which you can usually use.

I like the Moorman fabrics, but Crescent made a very odd decision when they started making 4" samples. The suedes come in 4", but the linens do not. I haven't sold a single Crescent linen since I switched to 4" samples.

Bainbridge does charge for their 4" samples, but you get every c/p board in the line - and there are a bunch of 'em.
 
We work with Bainbridge, Crescent, Artique and TruVue here, but due to size constraints (and face it, if you showed EVERY sample that every manufacturer made, you'd have no room on your table!), we don't have TruVue's samples in the rack, with the exception of the metallics. If I absolutely need to get a particular color in black core or a 40x60, I have the specifier kicking aorund the shop that I can order from.

When we first took on Artique, our rep, very nicely I might add, took it upon himself to research the other three brands and printed up labels cross-referencing the colors. He even offered to come in and pull the matched colors for me. But as a rule, no one touches the wall or my mats but me :D . I spent about 4-5 hours going thru everything, pulling the dupes and attaching the labels. My rep did a pretty good job, but in some instances, he was way off, so I had to make my own calls on what matched and what didn't. TruVue came out, Artique went in, Bainbridge and Crescent were pared down to just the colors that didn't overlap each other, and everything fits. Life is good.

Except... now we are being asked to take on Crescent Select, which look great, don't get me wrong. But there's only so much space in my mat racks, AND in my back room, to store the colors that I am carrying now. I don't think I could take on another line without having to move to a bigger place, and right now that is certainly out of the question. So those samples will stay in the garage for now.

I don't really have a preference of one over the other. The all have their good points, and their bad. Bainbridge's rag line seems a bit firmer, IMO, though that can be a pain in the butt when cutting, as I sometimes have to stick the blade WAAAAY out to get a clean cut the first go. Crescent's rags seem to be much softer, and so are much more prone to damage. I like Crescent's suedes a bit more, though. The boards are very sturdy, and I believe come in a wider array of colors than Bainbridge. I have no issues with Artique, save that their color selction isn't as large as the others. They cut beautifully, so no issues there. The only bad thing IS that they only come from Larson Juhl, so unless I have an order from them for the week, the Artique color may be subbed with one of the other guys. No issues with TruVue either. They have a HUGE selection, everything is available in acid-free, 40x60, AND black core. I would show them more, but like I said, no room. But it's good to know I can get them if I absolutely need to.
 
Ron - I guess what has started this topic is, I had a lady come in with a nice print and a 1950 'SE Post' cover. After she left I realized I had allowed her to choose Crescent regular mat. Now I can't find anything in Crescent rag that comes remotely close to what she picked. Crescent is the only samples I have . . .

I just wondered if there was a better 'blanket' brand of matboard for a SMALL time shop to carry just one and have more colors cross over from reg to rag. . . Maybe it's not possible.

AND then I'm thinking of phasing out all the Crescent reg I have and going with more rag of some kind. . . preferably with lots of colors.

I order crescent matboard from Presto in Hendersonville, NC. It comes 25 sheets to a box which is sometimes more than I need.
 
Originally posted by Rosalyn:
I order crescent matboard from Presto in Hendersonville, NC. It comes 25 sheets to a box which is sometimes more than I need.
Click to expand...
Good gracious! Isn't there a dealer somewhere closer to you than that! There are 2 here in Knoxville that would be a couple hundred miles closer. ;)

First of all (IMHO)hunt for a closer supplier, then get all the samples of all the lines you like. Order what you need and an extra or two. Your stock will gradually build up with the items you use most (face it, we all have our favorites!)

Whew, that's a long way off....

Betty
 
Betty - uummmmm? Close is a relative term where I live . . . United is in NY and FL . . . Decor in NY . .. Closer I don't know.
 
I use Bainbridge boards pretty much exclusively now.I changed over last summer.Its a good enough range for me.I used to use Daler boards which were alright but nowhere near the same quality.
 
Reynard - I ordered a set of Bainbridge Alphamat corner samples today. I'm hoping I can come close to matching the samples my customer picked in Crescent regular . . . the reason for this whole query to begin with.
 
Roslyn, go to Crescent (or any of the mfrs) website and look for distributors. I looked for Kansas and you have a couple in Utah, but when I looked in Missouri, there were 4-6. That's a bunch closer than North Carolina!

I hope this helps.

Betty
 
Good grief, Rosalyn, why don't you just tell us the number of the Crescent mat you want to match and some good soul - maybe even me - will tell you what the closest equivalents are in the conservation boards?

I keep all the regular samples in the back room to cross-reference for just that type of situation.

If you want to cut back on SKU's, I'd recommend you do what Bainbridge is doing and what a lot of us have already done - phase out the regular mats in favor of rags and Alphas.
 
Betty - Call me stupid - or maybe just 'unaware' but what will a closer distrib do for me? Save me shipping? That would be great! What do I ask when I call? "Uh, hi, help me." doesn't sound to professional nor does "which matboard is the best?"
 
I'm sorry Rosalyn, I thought not having to buy so much at a time was part of the issue. (oops)

Anyway, I would just call and say, "Hi, I'm so and so with such and such frame shop. I'm looking for a closer supplier for my business. Could you please send me a catalog?"

In fact I do sometimes call my distributor and ask which other matboard might match some discontinued board. That's what a good relationship with your supplier will net you. (Less shipping cost is good too! Shoot, Less will probably chime in now
. Let's just say "not paying as much for shipping is good!)

Betty
 
Yes, not having to buy as much is an issue . . but isn't 25 sheets pretty much a standard shipment.
 
Rosalyn: I think this issue on distributors came up for you once before on glass so I'm guessing that New West couldn't help you. Try Colorado Moulding. You can get their number at www.wdainc.com. We ship one matboard. Just fill the box with other stuff you may need like foam, cardboard for packing, mount board excetera. You do NOT have to order 25 sheets. Also, this may seem boring but you can never go wrong with white and off white.

Now the original question...we have customers that prefer each including Rising. You should get a rag mat from everyone and cut some mats, most people tend to like the board according to how it cuts. Firm, soft, ect.

And...there are tooooooo manyyyyyyy matboard sku's period.
 
Rosalyn,

TCMoulding out of MN would be closer to you. You would probably get next day shipping from them. I only order the boards that I need and have the box filled with foam core (I think someone mentioned this). This is the most economical way to order boards unless you can get delivery. They have a good frame selection, too. (If you need their phone no., please let me know.)

If I were in your shoes, I would definitely find someone closer so you can reduce shipping costs and cut delivery times. If someone can't get it out to me the sameday and in my shipping zone, I probably won't order from them. Speed is as important as cost.

Candy
 
Interesting juxtaposition, eh?

Candy, meet John Richards, VP of Sales and Marketing at TC Moulding, MN.

Or did you guys rehearse that ahead of time?
 
You know if it's a question about mat board I just MUST post. Number one, I'm opinionated and number two I'm an education consultant for Bainbridge.

Now for education:
Regular matboard has very little use in most custom framing businesses because it offers no protection for artwork beyond separating the art from glazing and in fact can itself cause damage to art. Cotton pulp or purified wood pulp boards that meet FACTS standards for preservation framing are a better choice. (But you all knew that)

In the October DECOR magazine, Jim Druzik, senior scientist at the J. Paul Getty Museum of art, better know as The Getty, the richest museum, I believe, in the world, has done extensive research on pollutants and the damage it can cause to art or objects. He says Artcare technology works. Read the article because it is full of good information. You won’t have to guess, you’ll know. Bainbridge is the ONLY board on the market that has Artcare, or zeolites in both the cotton board (Alpharag) or the purified wood pulp, (Alphamats). For that reason alone I would chose to use Bainbridge boards. (some of these posts sounded like some of you didn’t realize this info)

When I stopped carrying several companies and only use one, I noticed that I was saving time during the design process, the time spent ordering from companies, the paying for the boards, storing, keeping track of, I was saving time in every way. I don’t know about you, but if I can save a minute, I want to do it.

Yes, but then I don’t have enough colors to chose from! Many times, instead of matching a color perfectly, you would be better off using a color that is slightly darker than the color your trying to match. The eye, or attention of a viewer goes to the lightest brightest contrast, or the deepest darkest contrast in the total composition and the matting and the frame become part of the composition of the art when it’s framed and you don't usually want the attention pulled away from the art. In some cases, even using the complement in a darker tone works very well.

At any rate, there’s my two cents


Nona Powers, CPF
www.nonapowers.com
San Diego, CA

[ 11-14-2003, 06:21 PM: Message edited by: nona powers ]
 
Excellent information. Thank you everyone very much. I will certainly look into the other companies.


You all talk about your Rep doing this and that and I'm jealous. Maybe some day I'll find my Rep. . .
 
If you want the name of my TCM rep, PM me and I am sure he would try to help you. I know that you are out of his territory, but I am sure he could help you get set up or something.

Ron,

No, that wasn't set up with John Richards. However, I speaks the truth about my experience with TCM. :D :D :D I wonder is he needs any reps for his company? :D :D :D
 
Nona is right about preservation. I always go to Bainbridge first for most jobs, and exclusively for maximum preservation (with an occasional exception for a Crescent rag color). That said and because I do not inventory any mats, I carry samples of Bainbridge, Crescent, Artique and TruVue, all of which are available for free once a week delivery from Larson and a local distributor that I like to support. Even with four different lines, I cannot satisfy, without compromise, all of the nuances of color that I would like. As far as ease of cutting goes, I feel that it is my responsibility to perfect technique so as to satisfy whatever mat cutting need that good design and preservation require.

Note: I have a small shop in an 1850 gristmill antique center - inventorying mats is not practical. With a customer base derived from antique shoppers, I sell more high end frames like Munn's antique reproductions than anything else. Therefore, mat profits are "relatively" unimportant.

Pat :D
 
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