"Low wage" whose opinion?

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B. Newman

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Joined
Sep 5, 2001
Posts
4,855
Loc
Kodak, Tn. USA
In the customer list thread, the "low wage" issue came up. Then there was a thread on warped about wages, so I got to thinking. "Low wage" like "don't want to spend much on this frame" means different things to different people.

While trying to stay out of what is too low, I'd like to know, how do you decide just what to pay? Is it simply "minimum wage", or your "market" or what?

A lot is being written in business magazines these days about "open managment style" of managing employees. What this (very simplified) means is making your employees aware of what it actually takes "to keep the doors open". (Sorta like when Jay Goltz talks in his book about employees saying "we".)

So, do your employees know why they make what they make, or do they think you're making a killing while they break their backs?

Betty
 
It has been my observation that no one is being paid as much as she/he thinks she/he is worth. In my former life, $100,000 salaries were not uncommon, and people griped about being underpaid, not being appreciated, etc.
And my point? No matter what you pay, it isn't enough.

We make sure that our employees get to hear about our $1000 electric bills, our exhorbitant rent, what our "breakeven" goal is for every day (and really moan when the Daily Take isn't enough to cover). Does it make any difference? Probably not.... :rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by EllenAtHowards:

what our "breakeven" goal is for every day (and really moan when the Daily Take isn't enough to cover). Does it make any difference? Probably not....
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You know, when I was working for someone else, I knew what the store had to take in to "make it" per day. And when we didn't, I felt bad about being paid that day. Once, I even turned down a raise because I knew we were running close every day. Oh well, I have been called a strange duck!

Betty
 
Did I just hear that major league baseball players, who average a million/year, are considering going on strike again?

When I was an employer, long-term full-time employees - the kind of people who could run the shop for two weeks if I had to be gone - knew as much as I did about what was going on financially. (Looking back, that was frequently not nearly enough.) While they were not comissioned, they felt they were invested in the success of the business. Annual wage reviews were supplimented by bonuses and sometimes unexpected perks and gifts. And when times were lean, they were paid before vendors, the tax man or me.

I don't advocate this as a way to run a business, by the way.
 
A company has to make money on its employees' efforts or the company goes out of business soon. If an openness strategy is adopted, this is usually a real eyeopener. :eek:

Therefore, the case can be made that no employee ever gets paid what they were worth or the company simply would cease to exist. (Observe the employee-owned United Airlines saga for a treatise on how NOT to do it)

From thence come business owners out of framers, perhaps...... :confused:
 
Betty,

Our employees, myself included, as I am not the owner, know or have some idea of what it takes to run the business. The pay level is based on a combination of what other retailers and manufacturers are paying in our area.

Hey Ron, when I started coaching Little League baseball about 10 years ago, I lost all interest in Major League ball, and I was a HUGE Phillies fan. Let them go on strike; :mad: I’m not coming back. The kids play for the love of the game. :cool:

Sincerely,
Jack
 
Betty,
On an earlier thread, a few people seemed to think that their employers were getting rich, and not paying them what they are worth. While I am sure that this does occur, all business owners are not greedy insensitive pigs. I confess when I read those posts I got a bit miffed. I am paying my employees 7.50 an hour, which is absolulely all I can afford. I wish it could be more, but honestly, we live in a small town and the wages are pretty low everywhere. I try to make up for it by having a flexible work schedule, and little perks & bonuses. Basically their duties are cutting mats and fitting, and occasionally waiting on customers. I do all the difficult jobs, cutting frames, waiting on customers, pricing, etc. I have tried to expand their duties, but they just don't seem to catch on. I spend lots of time fixing mistakes. Now, these are ladies who have been framing for a few years! If I could find someone who could do my job, I perhaps would then be able to make enough to cover a higher wage...but not that many people are suited for this work, and are willing to do it my way. ( I once hired a trainee who forgot to mention that she was legally blind, but that's another story) Over the years, when times were slow, the employees and vendors were paid first. Like Ron, I don't advise this as a smart business move.

Leslie
 
Originally posted by JackBingham,CPF:
The kids play for the love of the game.
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Just like framers frame!

All six of us are probably underpaid - plus no bennies - we're all here for the environment we have. If the new owner can maintain that, we'll hang in there.

Matoaka... and a crew that just loves to frame!
 
I think I'm a better business person than I am a framer. I've owned the shop for 7 years (bought it without ever having framed a picture); so I learned quick, went to framing school, and decided to hire the most experienced help I could afford. And I kept raising the bar on "experienced"; and on what I pay. My current employee has 17 years experience, has owned her own shop and doesn't want to go back there, and knows a lot about how the financial situation is for the business. I pay us first and the rest follows. Times have been lean for the last three months, but I keep squeezing those pennies and it's beginning to pay off because we are coming out of the slump. I feel very fortunate to have her working for me, and even if I can't pay more right now, I let her know how valuable she is to me, and she knows that better times are on the way. Rarely do I let a customer know that our framing orders are down. They just think our efficiency has improved so their framing is done in 8 days instead of 12.
 
I think I might add that when times get tough and I have to make the hard decision of who stays and who goes I base my judgement on who are the best people for my organization and then make those cuts. This is probably not agreeable to those that don't make the cut.
 
Originally posted by Sherry Gray:
I think I'm a better business person than I am a framer.
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Great post Sherry! I know I'm a better business person than framer. I keep seeing ways to build the business, and then I realize "Hey, now I have to do all this stuff!!!"

I really wish I could find someone to "grow" with me. Let me sell, and you frame, and man, we could go to the moon!

Betty :eek:
 
I really do think that most owners pay what they can afford, and most don't make a gazillion dollars. It's great that so many loyal employees realize that and do "hang around".

But what if most owners became much more skillful at running their businesses? Wouldn't it stand to reason that they would probably make more? And if they made more, they would probably be able to pay their employees more? If they truly do pay what they can afford (and I really think they do), then maybe the answer is to become better at the one area that seems to be lacking in a lot of framer/owners?

Just a thought
 
I have to say that if my employer were always mentioning/whining about their astronomical electric bills, their unreached per diem, etc., etc., I wouldn't be grateful for my paycheck so much as frightened that I was going to be out of work soon. (And thus begin hunting for another job.) And I am not being facetious or sarcastic; I think there's a fine line between ensuring that your employees know that you are paying them what you can afford, and making them think the whole thing's about to collapse.

Food for thought.
 
Originally posted by Audrey Levins:
I have to say that if my employer were always mentioning/whining about their astronomical electric bills, their unreached per diem, etc., etc., I wouldn't be grateful for my paycheck so much as frightened that I was going to be out of work soon.
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I'm not talking about whining, I'm talking about a "we're in this together" attitude. A difference between "you and me" and "us".

I guess I've just lived a sheltered and naive life. I know my motives are open and honest, and I just expect everyone else's will be too.

Betty
 
Having been an employee, the employer and back to employee again, I have to agree that is a good idea to share costs with employees. It enables employees to see where their job fits in with the over all goals of the company, in other words, "the big picture".

I also think employers need to "give back" to the community that supports their business. One of the biggest ways to accomplish this is to pay and educate employees so that they in turn can be dignified and productive members of the community: pay their bills, raise children, buy from other local businesses, support schools & churches, volunteer etc.

Producing content employees speaks volumes to the people they interact with in their lives and it will eventually come back to the employer in the form of sales. It's a matter of doing the right thing, "what goes around comes around". In order to accomplish a goal such as this, an employer needs to follow the advice of Bob Carter. His prior post says it all:

"I really do think that most owners pay what they can afford, and most don't make a gazillion dollars. It's great that so many loyal employees realize that and do "hang around".

But what if most owners became much more skillful at running their businesses?
Wouldn't it stand to reason that they would probably make more? And if they made more, they would probably be able to pay their employees more? If they truly do pay what they can afford (and I really think they do), then maybe the answer is to become better at the one area that seems to be lacking in a lot of framer/owners?"

Being a good framer just isn't enough anymore. Surviving in this business climate requires business skills. After that, I would venture to say that being a good framer and being good at sales are pretty much equal. If you don't have lots of sales, then you don't need framers.

Jo
 
A pay rate can be perfectly fair and not meet an employee’s expenses. I had a lovely job managing a small shop. Things were fine until I was divorced and my (insert the worst epithet you can think of here) of an ex-husband decided he didn’t need to pay child support. Then all of a sudden it took 3 of my paychecks to cover the rent and 2.5 to cover the daycare and that’s not even addressing groceries and gas and ….

There was nothing wrong with what I had been making under the original circumstances, but I needed to find a job that paid more. It wasn’t out of a lack of loyalty to my employer. It was out of necessity to meet the needs of my son.

Now, as an employer you can’t ask in an interview “Are you on the brink of any major life crises or changes which will make it impossible for you to stay on?” So treat employees as best you can, always fairly. And don’t take it personally if their circumstances change. Promote loyalty by rewarding loyalty.

To my fellow employees I would say, the owners don’t work for us we work for them.
They should pay what the job is worth. It has nothing to do with what we feel we might be worth.

As for baseball, we go to minor league games. The players are just as good (or better), the seats are closer and cheaper, the hotdogs are better and cheaper, and no one leaves after the 8th inning to beat the traffic out of the parking lot.
 
Originally posted by Meghan M:
As for baseball, we go to minor league games. The players are just as good (or better), the seats are closer and cheaper, the hotdogs are better and cheaper, and no one leaves after the 8th inning to beat the traffic out of the parking lot.
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And they cheerfully sign autographs for the kids. We used to have a player with the old Appleton Foxes - now the Timber Rattlers. A friend who knows baseball suggested I take my kids to go see this guy play before he got called up to the Seattle Mariners - something that was expected to happen very soon (and did.) Maybe you've heard of him. His name is Alex Rodriguez.

(Sorry to Frankenthread, Betty, but every time someone mentions low wages I think of Alex Rodriguez.)
 
The players are as good or better than major league? If the one area where the employees dictated terms, it is absolutely Major League. Are you really saying that minor leaguers that never make to the "Bigs" do so out of loyalty or altruism?

Come on, now, Meghan. I know you're trying to make a point, but until you see a Randy Johnson or a Curt Schilling pitch, that's a tough call. They can get that amount because they have convinced someone to pay them that much, and then we have a choice to pay the higher tickets or not. And we seem to do willingly and in record numbers (unless you live in Tampa Bay).

There is nothing that better exemplifies capitalism than this. We were lucky enough to go to the World Series here. Game 7 was the most magical sporting event I've ever been to. I will promise you there wasn't a person in the stadium that didn't feel that the price of tickets was too high, either. It was a once in a lifetime opportunity and I didn't want to look back only to see a few more dollars in my checkbook

The key is every one got their monies worth. And the players, owners, and Major League Baseball all made a bonanza. All because they provided a product that the consumer was willing to pay for at a price that met the market needs.

We should all be so lucky
 
Originally posted by Meghan M:
So treat employees as best you can, always fairly. And don’t take it personally if their circumstances change. Promote loyalty by rewarding loyalty.

To my fellow employees I would say, the owners don’t work for us we work for them.
They should pay what the job is worth. It has nothing to do with what we feel we might be worth.
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In my employee handbook I have this statement, "I believe in the "Golden Rule Management Style" I will try to treat you in the same manner as I would want to be treated in the same situation"

So far it has worked great for me.

Betty
 
(Tounge planted firmly in cheek)

Maybe if I were a gotrocks frameshop owner I could afford world series tickets. However I have to be content to watch the Hudson Valley Renegades soundly thump the Batavia Muckdogs with my fellow wage slaves. ;)

That the players are as good is clearly debatable but, John you must admit that the Batavia Muckdogs is a better team name than anything in the American League or National League.

I might have been hasty in saying that the players are as good - but you can definitely see some great split second double plays and other exciting baseball.

I didn't mean to suggest that no one should go to Major League games. We go to one or two every year. But I can take my son to a Hudson Valley Game for less than it costs me to go to the movies alone. It isn't just the lower cost that appeals to me. I enjoy the closeness of the action. It goes well with my fantasy of living in a simpler time.
 
Heck, Meaghan, I like to watch High School football. There is something pure about. I really understand your point.

But there is something special about seeing the best at whatever do what they do best. It's true in Sports, Theatre, Art whatever.

And who doesn't want to be the best at what they do? And those people that are the best at what they do are perfect candidates for our customers. Those that have truly excelled have the resources to afford what we do, they appreciate the work and quality we offer. The same work and quality we all profess to duplicate. Just like Baseball, business can be in the "minor leagues" or it can be in the "Majors". The guys in the minors work just as hard, sweat just as much. They just don't make as much. The effort is there, the results aren't.

And so it is with appreciating those that have that little extra something that got them to the next level. Be it Baseball, Art, Music, Business or anything else.

Here's the good news:All of us can get there, if that's what we want and are good enough and work hard enough. And I'll always appreciate those above me (and there are plenty) and respect all those behind me. It's really all about respect anyway, isn't it?
 
Originally posted by Bob Carter:
Here's the good news:All of us can get there, if that's what we want and are good enough and work hard enough.
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(Italics added) That reminds me, anybody read Jay Goltz article in PFM this month? It says a lot for us here to remember. A lot depends on what we want.

Betty
 
More than once Grumblers compared their ability to match each other's price for same nominal frame job. Wonder how is it possible that most/so many framers landed in same price ballpark when their cost differ dramatically (wages and rents for instance) from one state (city) to the other?
 
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