looking for gallery hanging system

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JBergelin

JBergelin

CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
Joined
Dec 14, 2004
Posts
374
Loc
Big Rapids, Michigan
I have a customer who is opening a restaurant and wants to have gallery rods that disappear under the art - her walls have a fragile surface that is not repairable so holes for hangers are not an option - the holes for will be there forever -

She does not like the metal rods that I use in the store.


Suggestions?

(did I mention that it is a historical building with 10 - 12 foot ceilings? :icon11:)
 
Another option, depending on the decor of the restaurant, is to put in crown mouldings and hang the frames from the crown mouldings. Do a google search on victorian picture hanger and see if that kind of decorative hanging system fits.
 
Be wary of arakawa style systems

The previous owner of this shop had a wire system put in (not sure if it's Arakawa but it's similiar) and I can't stand the way the pictures hang. Sometimes they pull away from the wall and then the picture twists to the side until it makes contact with the wall. They look crooked all the time even if they're not and they're very easy to knock askew (or off the wall completely). If the pictures will be within reach of customers or on walls with doors that slam open and closed, I would not recommend a wire system.

just my 2 cents
 
Peter from Arakawa here. I hope it's OK to make some technical suggestions here. I've contacted this poster off list as well, but we recognize and can alleviate some of the issues mentioned here. I'm not comfortable posting commercial issues, but want to make sure that the technical benefits and limitations of the Arakawa Hanging System (and by association, cable systems in general) are known and understood.
The nature of a cable hanging system is to support "gallery style" viewing, which will have art angling slightly away from the wall. This angle depends upon several factors, most of which can be controlled by where the cable attaches to the frame.
Art being knocked askew can be resolved by hanging framed art from two points at the back of the frame. This does require more hardware, so will increase your cost.
The twisting comes from stacking art on a single cable, in which case the bottom frame pulls the cable away from the wall, and prevents the bottom of the top frame from sitting flat on the wall (that's some tortured English). This can also be resolved with a two cable suspension. A rod system (such as Walker) is rigid, so it won't twist or blow in the wind, so it will resolve this, but it is more visible.
The slamming doors... can't do anything about that, unless you want to go to a system that uses both a top and a bottom rail. Again, increased cost.
I hope that helps. If you have suggestions or are interested in ours, please let me know.
Thanks,

Peter Gutmann
President
Arakawa Hanging Systems USA, Inc.

kdub said:
The previous owner of this shop had a wire system put in (not sure if it's Arakawa but it's similiar) and I can't stand the way the pictures hang. Sometimes they pull away from the wall and then the picture twists to the side until it makes contact with the wall. They look crooked all the time even if they're not and they're very easy to knock askew (or off the wall completely). If the pictures will be within reach of customers or on walls with doors that slam open and closed, I would not recommend a wire system.

just my 2 cents
Click to expand...
 
Peter Gutmann

when I was reading Paul's post my first thought was "beware of twisting frames!" because, in my experience, crown moulding holds the frames too far away from the wal. Even with the hangers made for crown moulding the wires tend, to me, to be held too far from the wall.


What I like about the hanging systems that I have used is that they "hug the wall" better and help to keep the frames closer to the wall than picture moulding. And hanging systems tend to have a "security" model that can afford the restaurant a degree of safety from theft that a picture moulding doesn't have.
 
Bob Doyle said:
Peter Gutmann

when I was reading Paul's post my first thought was "beware of twisting frames!" because, in my experience, crown moulding holds the frames too far away from the wal. Even with the hangers made for crown moulding the wires tend, to me, to be held too far from the wall.


What I like about the hanging systems that I have used is that they "hug the wall" better and help to keep the frames closer to the wall than picture moulding. And hanging systems tend to have a "security" model that can afford the restaurant a degree of safety from theft that a picture moulding doesn't have.
Click to expand...
Bob,
Thanks for the additional input. Good point for all framers to consider when looking at different hanging options. The best solution for one place may not be best for others, so ask your colleagues. They're a wealth of information.
As to security hooks, have you seen our alarm hook (ASHM)? I think it's pretty cool.
Peter
 
The alarm hook looks really neat! It's not something I'd probably have a lot of use for but it's still a really cool device.

As to my issues, I have to thank Peter for contacting me and working with me to find a solution. I don't know why I never thought to contact Arakawa to see if they could help. I'm so glad now that I posted in this thread and am even happier that manufacturers do too.
 
Thanks everyone

This group is a wealth of information - I am going to the site on Friday to close the deal

Commercial jobs are new to me - but lately they have been coming in the door and I am not complaining :D:D:D
 
Before listing my concerns with Arakawa, let me say that I have purchased several hanging systems from them for commercial customers and I think they produce a fine product. I applaud Mr. Guttman for posting on our little forum.

Concerns:

Their products are somewhat expensive, and they do not sell wholesale until you reach a certain dollar-level history with them. I think it's about $1K but Peter may clarify that.

They sell to anyone, so if you have a customer with recurring need, the bright ones will bypass you and buy direct.

Arakawa would get much more business from framers if they were to change these conditions. It is a difficult product to sell even with a small mark-up when we have to pay retail. It's a "Catch 22" in that it can be tough to sell that first $1K. You can't get a decent deal until you sell a certain amount and it's hard to sell that amount unless you get a decent deal.

All that said, I understand that frame shops will never be a large part of their business so we're probably stuck with the current situation.
 
Peter Gutmann said:
I'm not comfortable posting commercial issues, but want to make sure that the technical benefits and limitations of the Arakawa Hanging System (and by association, cable systems in general) are known and understood.
Click to expand...

Peter

Your response is exactly what I like to see from a vendor/manufacturer. You not only answered the question at hand but you were very informative about your product as well as other similar products.

I personally would like to see others step in with informative responses when specifics are in question. Today is the first time that I compared several players in the hanging system game side by side.

We come here to learn and who better to learn from than the person who knows the product inside and out.
 
Doug,

First, thank you for your repeat business.
Second, as of May 2007, there is a new reseller policy that sets the initial bar at $500 prior purchase.
Third, I'm responding to you with more detail off list, but mainly so that I don't fall into the trap of using this forum as a commercial venue. If you feel that the email that I send off list is something worth posting, feel free to do so.
Finally, frame shops are a huge part of our business. But we're always trying to do better.
Thanks,

Peter
 
Arakawa

This is the message from Peter at Arakawa. As noted, they are taking steps to work with frame shops toward a mutually beneficial relationship. Thanks Peter!

Doug,

As of May 2007, there is a new reseller policy that sets the initial bar at $500 prior purchase. By doing this, we hope to do two things: 1. encourage a frame shop to purchase the product for their own use, and 2. set the initial bar high enough to filter out single users.

Step 1. ensures that a framer can show the Arakawa system to their customers who visit the shop and talk with real world experience about why Arakawa is the best hanging system on the market. The framer can explain where the Arakawa Hanging System is best used, and where another option might be better suited.

Step 2. We estimated $500 would outfit a standard frame shop for their own use. If we set the bar lower, than anyone with a business license could buy from us at the wholesale price and never contact us again.

And this is not the type of business relationship that we want to encourage, because the cost of a single transaction is huge. For any customer, we have to educate them about our system, enter them into our sales software, set up payment terms, shipping and receiving and handling all customer service issues. And if they're not professionals in the art field, 99% of the time, we'll never do business with them again.

When we sell through a frame shop, we can develop the long term relationships with you (the framer) that any business thrives on. Framers can offer us the local access to these customers who might only buy one hanging system (either residential or commercial), but will return to you, the framers, for years of repeated business. We help you establish long term relationships in your market, which helps us develop a long term relationship with you.

So we think that this setup will benefit both framers and Arakawa. And I encourage you to examine this option.

Thanks again for your feedback.

Sincerely,

Peter Gutmann
 
Looking for a gallery hanging systerm

Dave from AS Hanging Systems here. Wow, it is always difficult to come into a thread “after the train has left the station”. I would like to address some thread posts and also insert additional insights that I hope will be welcomed. As Peter shared his concerns with appearing “commercial” on these posts, I too write with some sensitivity. Though I have been lurking since Fall of 2004 I seldom post. But this one is too important.

Kdub shared concerns and experiences with a cable-based system. In summary the concerns are:
1. pull away from the wall
2. twisting
3. knocked askew or off the wall

Pull Away – Peter described this as “gallery style” and speaks of controlling where the cable attaches to the frame. Yes, I agree, and with the following embellishments. The framer is in control of most of the solution and we provide an item, which “crosses the t”. Framers usually attach a hang wire on the rear of a frame with the attachment points about a third of the way down from the top and also place an amount of slack in the hang wire. The solution comes in three parts. 1) Remove the slack from the hang wire. 2) Move the attachment of the hang wire high up on the frame and to a point just low enough to hide the gripper or hook that connects the hang wire to the hanging system, behind the frame. These two tactics will move the center of gravity of the piece closer to the wall and lower in the piece. This mitigates the angled hanging of the frame top away from the wall. Finally, step 3) and only if needed, is to deploy a “Frame Stabilizer” on the hanging system cable and locate the stabilizer behind the lower rail of the frame. This will hold the lower portion of the frame slightly away from the wall and push the top back towards the wall. The finished piece floats a bit from the wall and behaves nicely. You may see this product on our web site and it is compatible with cable from Arakawa as well as ours, and just about every cable based hanging system.

Twisting – I often refer to this as “Teeter Tottering”. One lower corner contacts the wall while the opposite lower corner flys free, and away from the wall. This condition is almost always associated by, as Peter so well described, hanging multiple pieces from one cable hanging down the center of a vertical group. Peter described one fix, using two cables to hang the items - one on each of the left and right. Agreed, and another solution is again from a Frame Stabilizer. The items will line up quite nicely and remain quite steady. This also addresses the “askew” concern from #3 of above. However, switching to a rod-based system will not typically resolve this issue. Rods, and rod hooks, being thicker than cables can even exacerbate this dynamic. For that reason we offer Frame Stabilizers for rods as well. Peter, I am surprised you didn’t mention us as a source for rod-based systems in the same breath with Walker Displays. ☺

Knocked Off – We don’t see this very often but is a concern in some applications. To address this issue we have hooks we describe as “security” hooks (as opposed to “anti-theft”). I am pretty sure Peter offers such a thing as well. These are usually designed with a small bail wire as one would see in a carabiner for mountain climbing. The result is an attachment that will survive much bumping and abuse, even earthquakes.

I hope this dissertation is well received by all of you. There is so much mis-understanding in the US about hanging systems and we are here to help you and help you grow this aspect of your business. As a supplier of both rod-based as well as cable-based systems we can honestly address both sides of the discussion.

Dave Veilleux
VP of Business Development
AS Hanging Systems
 
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