Looking for advice, willing to pay (I'm not a leach)

rickwtx

Grumbler in Training
Joined
Apr 20, 2021
Posts
13
Location
Arlington, Texas
Business
Artist (painter of canvas art works
I'm a traditional artist that paints on canvas and sells them very cheaply (typically $150 for a 36x48)... I have a small following and I've sold almost 80 canvases since January. I want to offer a simple frame to buyers that I can build and apply on the spot. This means I need a plan to be able to put a frame around a piece in say 15 minutes.. outdoors, with only cordless tools. I currently have NOTHING except cordless drills. So... I need a plan... here is how I have figured this would work: I buy a mitre saw and cut 24", 30", 36", 40", 48", and 60" pieces of 2.25x.5 ash (or something similar and light), buy a Kreg setup and predrill pocket holes, stain 1/3 of them natural, 1/3 a honey color, and 1/3 black, buy small L brackets I can attach to back of canvas frame and then to frame and assemble on the spot. Am I crazy or would this work? I have a small art trailer so I can take along four+ of each size, since I don't expect to ever sell more than 2 frame setups per trip out. I sell in a downtown area twice a month and on a typical day I will sell 8-15 canvases. My frame has to be affordable since I can't charge more for the frame than I do for the art. Ideas?
 

Attachments

  • dallas.jpg
    dallas.jpg
    648.4 KB · Views: 56
Here's a bit of advice...

If you sell a 36x48 for $150, it's no wonder that you have sold almost 80 since January!!
Double your prices!!!!
Then you can actually afford to keep doing this, cover materials expenses AND even pay yourself more than a pittance.


As for framing like you are considering, better to consider buying frame kits that only need a wedge and glue to join then use offset clips to join art to frame.

il_794xN.1272837955_c53b.jpg


Don't forget the wire on the back.
 
... Am I crazy or would this work?
Yes, your plan should work, and "work" is the operative word. That is, work carefully to keep high standards in your finishing, cutting, and joining of these frames, in order to avoid degrading your good work on the canvas. As you develop your processes, you will find ways to improve, of course.

Yes again, you are crazy for selling your original art so inexpensively. As others have suggested, increasing your prices would probably be a good idea. Sure, you may sell less, but you'll enjoy it more, and your customers will respect you in the morning.
:thumbsup:

My frame has to be affordable since I can't charge more for the frame than I do for the art.
Actually, professional framers routinely sell their custom framing for higher prices than the art that goes into them. Yes, it's hard, but you, too, can do it.
 
With 2.25" x .5" ash would not be my suggestion.
Which thickness are you planning to see from the front.
If you were to cut them .5" wide, they could be used as edge strips.
If you cut them 2.25" wide, there is no easy way to attach them. At .5" deep, it is easily possible to screw through the front with a Kreg system.

Traditional frames have an area cut out for the art to go, This area is called the Rabbet.
If you are willing to buy a table saw or router, you could take thicker frame stock, at least .75 thick", and cut a 1/4" Rabbet to about 1/8"-1/4" set back from the front.
Something like the upper two on this page:
To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Occasionally a lumber yard, or hardware store will have frame moulding with this Rabbet already cut.

Then you can stain and cut them to size.
It would be easiest to have the corners of your frames ready in advance, so that you can place the art in them, and then use offset clips as Framah suggested.

Best of luck.

Brian
 
Hi Rick,

Welcome to the G! All are welcome here and we never ever ask for payment for advice. So no worries, we are all here to learn and help each those who have a genuine interest in framing.

First of all, your art looks fantastic! Do you have a website? Second of all, you are underselling yourself.

As framers, the frame (and design) usually costs more than the art. In fact, right now I am framing 4 small postcards (which cost maybe $15 total) for a little under $500

A good beautiful frame will enhance any art. A good framer will pull out different choices and show the customer what each choice does for the art. There is no one size fits all when it comes to true custom framing.
I personally like to point out elements in the art that correspond with the elements in the frame.

My advice to you:
Raise your prices, your art is worth it.
Don't devalue your beautiful art by putting an amateurish frame around it. It is better to sell it unframed.
Make friends with a good framer and refer your customers to them. I have similar set ups with interior designers, where a percentage will be paid out to the interior designer for referring their clients to me.
Something similar can work for you as well.
 
1) is someone pays 140 - they will also pay 195...or 225...
2) consider using metal frames such as Nielsens floater frames (profile floater 14) or a straight lip frame profile 13 (not a standard cove) ...

Easy to assemble, and transport the corner hardware

***I ask the artists I work with this questions: do you want to sell art or be a framer? Focus on what you do the best, as yu'll never be able to provide "the options that a framer does", and if you can't provide the "right frame...you have the possibility of loosing the art sale....***

and welcome to TG
 
I buy all my art supplies and canvases used so I'm still making a profit, and I have a few pieces for $300, but that's my max. I have a job so this is a side adventure. I didn't know that made pre-cut framing kits.
With 2.25" x .5" ash would not be my suggestion.
Which thickness are you planning to see from the front.
If you were to cut them .5" wide, they could be used as edge strips.
If you cut them 2.25" wide, there is no easy way to attach them. At .5" deep, it is easily possible to screw through the front with a Kreg system.

Traditional frames have an area cut out for the art to go, This area is called the Rabbet.
If you are willing to buy a table saw or router, you could take thicker frame stock, at least .75 thick", and cut a 1/4" Rabbet to about 1/8"-1/4" set back from the front.
Something like the upper two on this page:
To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Occasionally a lumber yard, or hardware store will have frame moulding with this Rabbet already cut.

Then you can stain and cut them to size.
It would be easiest to have the corners of your frames ready in advance, so that you can place the art in them, and then use offset clips as Framah suggested.

Best of luck.

Brian

I was guessing on the wood size, but no more 1/2" from the front. And that makes perfect sense now that I consider how tiny a screw would have to be not to poke thru a 1/2/less at an angle.. so no kreg.
 
Hi Rick,

Welcome to the G! All are welcome here and we never ever ask for payment for advice. So no worries, we are all here to learn and help each those who have a genuine interest in framing.

First of all, your art looks fantastic! Do you have a website? Second of all, you are underselling yourself.

As framers, the frame (and design) usually costs more than the art. In fact, right now I am framing 4 small postcards (which cost maybe $15 total) for a little under $500

A good beautiful frame will enhance any art. A good framer will pull out different choices and show the customer what each choice does for the art. There is no one size fits all when it comes to true custom framing.
I personally like to point out elements in the art that correspond with the elements in the frame.

My advice to you:
Raise your prices, your art is worth it.
Don't devalue your beautiful art by putting an amateurish frame around it. It is better to sell it unframed.
Make friends with a good framer and refer your customers to them. I have similar set ups with interior designers, where a percentage will be paid out to the interior designer for referring their clients to me.
Something similar can work for you as well.
I plan on raising prices a bit over the summer, right now I'm still learning and selling a lot is good way to keep momentum. My website is gallerywallace.com. I bought almost 100 48"x60" canvases for $10 each so I'm doing better than breaking even, but when they are gone reality will set in. I think if I frame some of my better large pieces I can raise those to $350.
 
Sounds like I need a wood solution closer to 2" x 1/4". The frames I sell the most of are cheap... ex department store canvases that had preprinted art on them - so a real frame will help give them some depth and value. Luckily the canvases have a lot of rear supports. The canvases I have 1-1/8th thick. Sounds like I should set up a router table
 

Attachments

  • frame.jpg
    frame.jpg
    351.6 KB · Views: 10
Think about selling the existing inventory at the current replacement cost when pricing your work. The reality won't be as harsh when the time comes.

Maybe better that you keep a small assortment of framed pieces in the varieties and sizes you want to offer and simply swap the frame out if a buyer wants one one that is unframed with a frame or wants another option. Show your work in both options.
Traditional rabbeted frames are better for this kind of option. The narrower floater or strip frames are a bit more specific to each canvas and fast is usually not one of the options in the cheap, fast, and good trifecta.
 
Rick, I just browsed through the website.

Please, raise your prices now! You should be able to easily sell those at $350, unframed.

You have sold many pieces, that makes you a professional artist in my book. But you do have to raise your prices.

I can see so many options to frame them, please don't do the universal look. It would not do them justice.

Have one framed at a good professional frameshop who is all about design. Have them show you options, be amazed about how the right frame gives it the right feel.

I wish you were closer, I would love to discuss options with you in my shop.

Now for your website: you will have to do something about categories to make for easy browsing. Do you sell through your website? It would be a good option for sure.
Separate the ones already sold from the ones available. Make sure all of them have a price. You might consider shipping as I do believe there is a market for your paintings. Think big!!!!!!
 
Your art is amazing.

RAISE YOUR PRICES!!!

And let your customers find their own frames.

You need to spend your time painting - not fiddling around with frames.

Make friends with a framer and have one framed professionally to show your buyers what is possible. And make sure the back is not too finished so you can remove the frame if someone wants THAT painting. Or sell it framed and double the cost of the frame in addition to your price for the painting.
 
Hi and Welcome Rick. 😁

When I started out, I used to take a sheet of matboard, cut it in 4 and do 4 watercolors. When I had
ten I would pack them up and send them to a wholesaler @ 18GBP each. I could do ten a week no bother.
£180 a week. It was good at the time (1980s). I eventually got then up to 40 each. Even better. I did 100s. :p
later on I got to know a good dealer who did exhibitions in all the 'right' places. I let him have two of these paintings
which I had framed up on sale-or-return. He sold them both for £575. Even with his slice off I got 300+. The penny dropped
then and I dropped the wholesaler. Never looked back.

As for your present idea on framing.... Do one in a jaw-breaker frame for people to marvel at and sell the others unframed.
Artists very often use minimal 'exhibition' frames knowing that the buyers are likely to have them re-framed later to their own taste.
Trying to frame them on-the-spot sounds a bit irksome and it sends a few wrong messages to a customer.

One more thing.... put your prices up! :cool:
 
My frame has to be affordable since I can't charge more for the frame than I do for the art. Ideas?
FWIW, Back in the day of limited editions, we had the opportunity to frame many of the originals from the artists represented by Mill Pond Press. Robert Bateman, John Seery Lester----.
When we sold a print we would offer to frame it in the same frame as the original for a total reproduction. Frame and art created by the artist. So, we had a $350.00 print in a $3500.00 closed corner hand crafted frame, you be surprised how many chose that option, it was always an awesome look.

You may also consider a signature frame, meaning all frames being the same, designed by the artist.
Example: a Canadian artist named Trisha Romance had her own galleries. All her limited edition prints offered in those galleries were framed in the same frame, soft neutral gold frame. Always a triple mat, always 8520 cream outside mat with V-Groove and two accent color inner mats. This created a complete package by artist design.
Just a thought.
 

Attachments

  • 51731D5C-CB35-4A62-9DC9-65066AFADF96_4_5005_c.jpeg
    51731D5C-CB35-4A62-9DC9-65066AFADF96_4_5005_c.jpeg
    27 KB · Views: 20
Last edited:
I sense a theme running thru the replies here.

I think it is:

RAISE YOUR PRICES!!!!!!!

If no one buys them at the higher price, you can always lower it back down.
If you raise them and they keep selling like hotcakes, raise them again till you finally get a balking at the price. That's how you know where your pricing should be.
As well, if everyone balks then you raised it too high and lower it a bit.

Just because you got the materials for almost nothing, you are also selling your talent, which does have value as well.

Also, understand that almost all of us on here have seen and worked with artists starting out and ones that are established and have seen the pricing dance over and over.

I remember an artist who had almost 50 pieces that she was considering selling and had most prices set at 50 - 100. I told her to double it. She did and still sold almost everyone at a month long show.
 
I do have a semi-longterm-plan to eventually have two lines of art, one signed "wallace" and priced so that nearly anyone can afford it (younger people, retirees, casual art viewers) and then another line that is better/different and signed by my full name and priced like other artists do. With my job that is 60-75 hours a week I don't have a ton of time to paint/market. Great advice here, I'm going to frame 3 to 6 pieces and have the option onsite of switching them out. Love the idea of a signature frame, probably dark wood with bottom strip painted a dark gray with my signature in silver.
 
There's a lot of good advice above. I might add (if I didn't miss something) that it might be more profitable and easier to find a nearby frame shop, and ask if they'd be willing to give you a referral fee for each customer who makes a purchase of framing one of your paintings. This way, a frame shop might be glad to give you a percentage of the sale, which they might be more successful selling a more expensive frame too. Just an idea.
 
I do have a semi-longterm-plan to eventually have two lines of art, one signed "wallace" and priced so that nearly anyone can afford it (younger people, retirees, casual art viewers) and then another line that is better/different and signed by my full name and priced like other artists do. With my job that is 60-75 hours a week I don't have a ton of time to paint/market. Great advice here, I'm going to frame 3 to 6 pieces and have the option onsite of switching them out. Love the idea of a signature frame, probably dark wood with bottom strip painted a dark gray with my signature in silver.
Rick,

You are the professional artist, no question there. Not sure if the idea of two lines is worth it, but you'll find out if it works or not.

Most of us on here are professional framers. We have seen art, we work with artists, but more important, we frame for people who actually buy the art.
Most customers are not interested in the frame the artist puts on the art. Most artists don't know how to frame their art.
I am a good amateur artist. I cannot frame my own work by myself as I simply don't see what looks good. Probably because I am so involved with creating the art, that I can't be objective anymore.
Do not put a signature on a frame.
What is meant by a 'signature frame' is something that the artists uses on all work, but not with an actual signature.
Dark wood only looks good on certain art but in a lot of cases it is distracting. You don't want it to be about the frame, it needs to be about the art. I bought a piece of art, where the artist actually painted the frame and made it his own. Elements of the art were repeated in the frame. They are gorgeous but time consuming and he priced it accordingly. As he should.

Find a framer. Bounce some ideas back and forth. Have the framer design one of your pieces and see how that goes over with your customers.
If you were closer, I would happily trade my design and frame for one of your art pieces.
 
Many years ago I put my paintings in a local 'open to all' exhibition. It was staged every year at a nearby farm
where they cleared out a few outbuildings and hung close to 1000 paintings from local artists. These were a mixture
of 'happy dabblers', kids and a few well established pros. It was a good event. Nice atmosphere.
I remember one chap (who was an art teacher) who sold all his paintings within minutes of the show opening.
They were little oils framed in a chunky ornate gold moulding. It was no wonder they flew off the wall as they
were £40 each. 😆 The exhibition charged 12½% commission. so he got £35.
Pick the bones out of that - paint/paint board/moulding/sundries and the cost of transporting the paintings
to the exhibition and he just about broke even.

I priced mine at full retail. From about £500 to over 1000 for a biggish one. (You were allowed 6) I never failed to
sell at least three and one year I sold the lot. Happy Days. 😁
 
Yeah, those look like wholesale prices to me. Get 'em while you can!
 
I'm following a lot of advice here. To be honest the advice here is better than I have gotten from art groups - its like the view from the other side of the fence.
 
To be honest the advice here is better than I have gotten from art groups
Psst - here's a secret - most artists don't know a damn thing about framing. FYI :cool:
 
Just to have a saturday project that doesn't involve paint and canvas I'm pulling my miter saw/table out today and I'm going to mockup one frame myself. I might even try routing a 1" groove to inset the canvas bit, but my routing patience is not always great. I haven't done in woodworking since the 1990s either.
 
I'm following a lot of advice here. To be honest the advice here is better than I have gotten from art groups - its like the view from the other side of the fence.

I love that you are open to a different view. I appreciate all 'my' artists but they know to leave the framing to me. Just like I leave the creating of art to them.


So how do we buy your art?????
 
I can mail anything, but it does get a bit challenging above 36x36 since Fedex bases shipping on total square inches. In the case of selling to a framer, I can remove the canvas from the frame and ship it in a tube. I did visit a framer yesterday, a nice lady from Korea and an older traditional shop run by a couple of retirees, but neither wanted to do floater frames in my main size of 48x60. The second shop suggested I go to Rockler and buy a dowel drill kit/jig, which I did, but even Rockler didn't have wood in the size I was looking for. So they suggested I go to Brazos Wood and have custom 5/16x3" ash or poplar cut/planed. I really don't mind making some frames myself, and then finishing them in some "signature" way (probably just white or black) with a single 1/2 exotic wood plug somewhere on the frame with a small puffin carved into it (I'm from Newfoundland). My website is www.gallerywallace.com, but it won't be updated with updated art until May 9th.
 
Large canvases are often shipped off the stretchers. The stretchers can be broken down and shipped with the canvas as well. Use two mailing tubes, one for the stretcher to be inside of, and then roll the canvas, paint side out on the same tube and finish with a sheet of glassine. This entire package gets a bit of padding from foam or bubble wrap for a snug fit in the outer tube. The inner tube should be short enough so padding can be added to the ends of the larger tube as well.

At some point you are gong to have to outsource. Working the hours you do and then painting doesn't leave much time for woodshop. You will experience a fairly big (re)learning curve when it comes to making your own mouldings. The wood generally available from the home shelter stores or from the woodworking specialty stores are going to be sub-par in the first instance, and expensive in the second. You might want to have a talk with one of our sponsors, David Waldmann at Vermont Hardwoods, just to see where the economies are in DIY vs. outsourcing. I have a fairly complete woodworking shop that is at the high end of amateur and I often resource products and labor from others because of that time/money conundrum.
 
A note on the rolling of a canvas - always do this with the paint facing out - otherwise, depending on how thick the paint has been applied, the surface can crack when unrolled.
 
WPFAY is right on the money.

You have to decide whether you are a painter or a framer and which side of the business puts the bread and butter on the table. You do good work as a painter and, to my mind, this is where your attention should be directed.

Good framing will not improve your art but shoddy framing will detract from it and trying to make up your own mouldings with basic tools and hardware store timber will almost certainly result in disappointment.
 
Hi, Rick. :)

With float frames, it's important that the stretched painting be in square, with the sides in parallel. Before ordering one, it's a good idea to make sure it is. I've had artists bring in canvases to float that were over 1/4" narrower across the center (due to improper or missing bracing), and that really shows in a float frame. Also, I can see from your FB page that you have a fun set-up in a public space. Right now, I'm guessing folks just buy them and walk away, to wherever they're parked. Do you also have easy access for parking, if they want to pick up a framed piece that way?
 
if you're still looking for an inexpensive DIY option, look for this at Home Depot. With a little bit of work at the table saw you can make some nice simple frames. it's already surfaced on all 4 sides so it needs only minimal work before applying a finish. Just be prepared to spend some time sorting through their stock to find the straight boards.
 
The boards Matthew links to are one's I use regularly, in a smaller profile, for strainer frames. They work quite well for that application, but my experience in milling them isn't all that good. They are a little too high in moisture content and tend to warp toward the kerf as they are being ripped on the table saw. I have a Powermatic model 66 saw with a 10" rip blade from Quinn and I still get warp. Cutting a rabbet with a table saw or a router table will generally have like results. The heat generated during the cutting/milling will differentially dehydrate the adjacent wood causing a warp toward the cut. David Waldmann wrote about this effect in another thread not long ago, and he mills a lot of wood.
 
The boards Matthew links to are one's I use regularly, in a smaller profile, for strainer frames. They work quite well for that application, but my experience in milling them isn't all that good. They are a little too high in moisture content and tend to warp toward the kerf as they are being ripped on the table saw. I have a Powermatic model 66 saw with a 10" rip blade from Quinn and I still get warp. Cutting a rabbet with a table saw or a router table will generally have like results. The heat generated during the cutting/milling will differentially dehydrate the adjacent wood causing a warp toward the cut. David Waldmann wrote about this effect in another thread not long ago, and he mills a lot of wood.
That's interesting to hear. I personally haven't had that experience but it's good to know. I typically use the poplar from the big box stores for strainers. I like the Claymark pine since it's already pretty smooth and they sell a 5/4 thickness which can be milled for a simple cap moulding in just 2 passes across the table saw. i've also resawn that same stuff right down the middle and joined the two halves at 90 degrees to make a floater frame.
 
Well, maybe being less than 1000' from the Atlantic Ocean has some effect. Maybe. The woodshop is aptly named "The Sauna" in the summer.

Point being that the OP could buy finished stem stock in a couple colors by the box and spend about the same amount of money or less per foot as he would for the raw material footage.
 
Back
Top