Lieberman's isn't Lieberman's anymore

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Bob Carter

Bob Carter

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
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In the spirit of full and open disclosure, I have been a paid consultant (okay, Bruce and I went to dinner a few times and he picked up the tab and provided some trade credits and a few shekels for picking my pea-brain)

I am suprised there has been no discussion (nor public announcement) of Lieberman's being sold to FulcrumGallery.com group

I have known the brothers for a bunch of years and recently offered a little wisdom and advice (too little, too late). They were meticulously honest and never ever competed with their clientele. In a time where it is common practice to do an end run and offer direct-to-consumer websites, they steadfastedly refused my counsel on that move. As much as I disagreed with that decision, I admired their principles

Not sure what the future holds with the new ownership, but I will miss my friend and our weekly "Bob on Poster Bidness" conferences. I think it surely is another sign in the long Burma Shave type signs of our changing industry

No one has made this announcement and since I am longer bound to any agreements of confidentiality, I want to let others know
 
Bob Carter said:
I am suprised there has been no discussion (nor public announcement) of Lieberman's being sold to FulcrumGallery.com group
No one has made this announcement and since I am longer bound to any agreements of confidentiality, I want to let others know
Click to expand...

Wow!! That's big news Bob.

I've been dealing with Lieberman's since they were Gallery Pictures 20 years ago. I'm not familiar with FulcrumGallery.com. I notice they do online picture framing though.

I hope they keep up Lieberman's good customer service that I've enjoyed over the years.
 
Thanks for the heads-up.
It'll be interesting to see what happens.

Hey, that was your 4,444th post!
Good number.
 
It should be in the next round of trade mags, it just happened a couple weeks ago. My experience so far has been good. Most of the same people are there and so far they are doing the same as Liebermans has.

They have said that they will be bettering their service with quicker and lower $ shipping, hopefully that will be true.
 
Tim and i and others did know about it (almost a month, now), but it wasn't public

As Tim states, it should work out for the better for most. They will have quicker shipping and lower rates (don't know why Bruce never used USPS or Fedex ground).

I really only have three complaints: Bruce (and a few other contacts) are gone-I'm a relationship guy; I'm out a Consult gig, and they offer framing on fulcrumgallery.com at 40% off your local frame shop

I guess I'll never get over that
 
40% off your local frame shop?

Who's local frame shop?

40% off what? 40% off French detail mats or paper mats? 40% off 1/2-inch polystyrene frames, or 6-inch hand-carved and gilded frames from Goldleaf Framemakers of Santa Fe?
 
You snooze you lose... better buy now before it's free!

"In just a few clicks, you can receive quality framed art at prices that are 50% less that local frame shops, delivered in half the time, right to your door."
 
How long does the non-compete clause last?
 
Yes they sell to the general public at publishers suggested retail less one penny but they pretty much always have a 20% off sale going. Thier framing prices are not expensive but it is not the least expensive. Some of their prices are easily beaten by my regular prices yet, some of their prices I would not be able to touch at my current prices. If you want a simple black metal or 1 1/4 wood I got them beat. They do have a 30 day 100% no questions asked return policy that includes thier framing and they do honor it, you don't like it, send it back and we will issue a refund. I am sorry to say that that is probably the way our business is headed on the "disposable" art side of things.
 
I think it depends on how overtly they plan on competing with us in the consumer market. Somehow, I think if we all stopped purchasing from them, they might not even notice!
 
There was a thread a few weeks ago, asking what Lieberman's should do to fight the Art.com's of the world.

Little did most of us know they weren't going to fight them, but were going to join them.

I've been ordering posters from Lieberman's almost everyday for the last few weeks, and no one there has said anything about the sale.
I guess they are not allowed to talk about it yet.

I just hope they keep selling wholesale to framers, because it's a pain for me to track down and order prints from all the different distributors that my interior designers pick out.
 
surferbill said:
I just hope they keep selling wholesale to framers, because it's a pain for me to track down and order prints from all the different distributors that my interior designers pick out.
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I think they will. Isn't that Lieberman's whole business model. Wholesale to framers and drop shipping to ecommerce sites?
 
surferbill said:
There was a thread a few weeks ago, asking what Lieberman's should do to fight the Art.com's of the world.

Little did most of us know they weren't going to fight them, but were going to join them.

I've been ordering posters from Lieberman's almost everyday for the last few weeks, and no one there has said anything about the sale.
I guess they are not allowed to talk about it yet.

I just hope they keep selling wholesale to framers, because it's a pain for me to track down and order prints from all the different distributors that my interior designers pick out.
Click to expand...


I wouldn't really say that they joined them since the principals of the company are no longer there, they decided to get out of the business not join them.

As for the employees talking, from what I have been told they are very optimistic. There are things coming down the road that will be improvements for everyone. Remember it has only been a couple weeks, give it some time to see and hear about changes.

They have no intentions of not selling to framers, they intend to ship quicker and at a lower price and their website will have some great improvements over time including a better selection.

Bill why are you ordering every day, wouldn't it be easier and more cost effective to consolidate and only order once a week?

And in the spirit of some other threads currently going on...I am not and have never been compensated by Liebermans, Fullcrum, or any other company in our industry. Though I would be willing to look into any consulting projects for a fee.
 
Jerry Ervin said:
I guess my poster selling days is over.

From today on, my customers have two choices with me. Artaissance and Image Conscious.
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Jerry, how much have you sold in the past year from all of the other publishersand include framing of those prints? Does it really make sense to limit your art choices to those 2? I fully understand Image Conscious, they publish and distribute many good images but what if someone wants something that they don't carry?

If you are going to send them elsewhere, lets set up something where your customers can order directly from my site (which online ordering of prints will be available very soon) and have the orders sent to your shop for the customer to pick up and you get a chance to frame.
 
Hi Tim

Your site looks like you joined up with Fulcrum. Do they offer an affiliate program?
 
What you see is done by the same company that does the programming for Fulcrum. It is not the affiliate type program that you see on Fulcrum, art.com, ect.

I sent you a PM to get more infor from you.
 
Message from Lieberman's new ownership

I’ve been reading some of the posts and thought I would take this opportunity to respond to the comments about Lieberman’s being sold to Fulcrum Gallery. In the spirit of full disclosure, I am one of the new owners of Lieberman’s, and worked for Lieberman’s from 2003 to 2007 and feel very in tune to the issues facing custom framers - including increased competition. I’d like to start by complimenting the Lieberman’s and what they have achieved over the past 30 years and express our respect for the positive way they contributed to the continued success of custom framers and the industry. Metaverse Corporation is the parent company of www.fulcrumgallery.com which is an online art retailer with custom framing solutions. The company was founded over 5 years ago and has been focusing 100% of their efforts in selling direct to consumer exclusively online in competition with online retailers. The reason why we have been pretty quiet about our recent acquisition of Lieberman’s (March 17, 2008), is because not only did we want to demonstrate through our actions that we have every intention of continuing Lieberman’s wholesale business as usual, but we also wanted to make a general announcement when we were in a position to implement the improved services and not just tell you about them in a press release. Now that more than a month has passed, we hope our wholesale customers have not experienced any reduced level of service. We have made every effort to make as smooth a transition as possible. Many of the same people who have been with Lieberman’s for over 10 years have agreed to continue serving in their respective posotions. Because I want to respect the commercial parameters and business integrity established by the Grumble, I will refrain from discussing all the ways we plan on improving on our commitment and level of service to custom framers. It is our intention to build upon the solid foundation of products and services established by the Lieberman’s by combining it with our state-of-the-art operations and technology. We will be spending the next few months going through a comprehensive technical integrating of the two companies, at the conclusion of which we expect to have exciting news announcing all of the improved services and new product lines that will be available as a one stop shop solution. We appreciate all of your patience as we complete this transition. I would like to reiterate it is in Metaverse Corporation’s best interests to empower our customers, custom framers, by making available to you the latest product lines, operations and technology enhancements, and improvements to service, including turn around time. Ultimately, this should allow for custom framers to better compete in both the online and brick and mortar marketplaces. If you would like to learn more or have any comments, feedback, or concerns, please feel free to contact Lieberman’s as we look forward to meeting your needs and continuing to provide the high level of service that has been established by the Lieberman’s.

Jason Foster
VP Business Development
Metaverse Corporation
 
Thank you Jason, for responding to the concerns of us Grumblers. I have been a long time customer of Lieberman's Gallery and I am relieved to know my great service will continue. It's nice to know you are listening.

Lori Tittle
Gallery of Framing
 
Hello Jason

In that spirit of full disclosure, you probably know my affiliation with Bruce

I, too, think that selection, service and speed will probably improve with the new direction

And, may I be the first to say how pleased I am that Fulcrum has dropped the "Save 40% off your local frame shop" banner when selecting the "see it framed" option

I appreciate that while we will still look to continue and build our relationship with you, that "poke in the eye" of we local independent frameshops was a source of irritation. May I suggest that while we are probably a pretty small segment of your future business opportunities, I'm not sure many of us prefer to "compete" with you for the "hearts and minds" of consumers

I really do look forward to your drop shipment fulfillment program

Here's hoping we both grow
 
Bob Carter said:
Tim and i and others did know about it (almost a month, now), but it wasn't public

As Tim states, it should work out for the better for most. They will have quicker shipping and lower rates (don't know why Bruce never used USPS or Fedex ground).

I really only have three complaints: Bruce (and a few other contacts) are gone-I'm a relationship guy; I'm out a Consult gig, and they offer framing on fulcrumgallery.com at 40% off your local frame shop

I guess I'll never get over that
Click to expand...

I've been watching for this announcement for some time now, and nothing, nowhere. The Fulcrum site is certainly a concern. It will be interesting to see where this goes. The Lieberman's service has certainly been helpful over the years. It is the first search engine I take customers to and I'd be a bit lost without it. I hope they can work this out and keep fulcrum.com hidden from the Lieberman's connection or this will be yet another link I have to take off my site because of the framing offered. Thanks for the update Jason.

I hope that Fulcrum will offer a Liebermans type database that we can put on our web sites with the ability to drop ship to our customers. Being undercut by cheap framing is my main concern. Keep us posted please.
 
Customer came in today looking for motivational posters. Retail price plus shipping via Liebermans would be $75. Retail price plus shipping at Art.com was $70, and with the 20% off if you buy it right this very second, the price would be $59.

Two of the prints were a dollar less at Art.com, while the other two were the same price. Shipping was half the usual shipping charge from Liebermans. And then there's 20% off.

How are we supposed to compete? My only shot at competing in this case is that the customer says her company always pays cash. Unfortunately, she didn't have the cash with her today (she just figured she could order now and pay later, riiiiiight).
 
Hey Paul-For what it is worth, I will match any dot com if i am reasonably certain that I will get the framing order

On occassion we will let one get away because it doesn't make sense.

But, i will bend like a willow tree if we will frame the posters
 
Same here, Bob. This was a weird one -- never been in the store before, wanted me to special order the prints but didn't want to prepay (yes, I really need to have those motivational posters in stock...not!). Said she only paid cash, not credit card (which would eliminate Art.com), but only had $20 to put down.

Is she going to buy online instead of through me? Who can say? :icon45:
 
Bob Carter said:
Hey Paul-For what it is worth, I will match any dot com if i am reasonably certain that I will get the framing order

On occassion we will let one get away because it doesn't make sense.

But, i will bend like a willow tree if we will frame the posters
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But how would you ship them? We get periodic framing jobs from the web site and have recently been shocked at shipping prices. We just shipped 10 24 x 36 empty LJ frames to New Jersey and took a loss on the order because we underestimated the shipping.
 
Kirstie,

Did you try calling the manger (Tom) of the LJ NY Distribution Center (in NJ), and ask for a quote to drop off joins on one of their truck routes?
 
Hey Kirstie-Once in great while does a print that we get by matching art.com needs to be shipped. 99% are locals with instore pick up

We have found that price for shipping/packaging the 1% can vary greatly. With some diligent shopping/comparing we go from extreme to excessive.

The most expensive are UPS store and Fedex and the best tend to be the "around the corner" guy that does packing and shipping. Back in the heyday of name mats, we used to ship plenty. Bought bubblewrap and boxes from Uline and had an acct with Fedex ground; not hardly efficeint for once in awhile shipping
 
Pat Murphey said:
Kirstie,

Did you try calling the manger (Tom) of the LJ NY Distribution Center (in NJ), and ask for a quote to drop off joins on one of their truck routes?
Click to expand...

Now THIS is a brilliant idea. But the customer was retail, so his delivery was residential. Of course we had already built the frames, and now they are shipped DHL, but I will have my rep check into this for us in case the situation arises again. DHL has the lowest online quote.

We were just blindsided by our own lack of planning. Small matter, but annoyed at our own stupidity. Now we need to check the shipping weight and rate for all the smaller framed items on our site. This is why we don't have a shopping cart. More complication than I can deal with right now, but the time will come.
 
About ten years ago I received a brochure from them, it had a few prints on the front cover that I figured I could turn over easily. I gave them a call to order a few, they were out of stock. OK, how about one of the other ones, nope, out of stock. OK, how about one of the ones inside the just received brochure, nope, that is out of stock as well.

I then asked if they had any of the ones advertised at all? Well, what are they? I proceeded to give her the numbers and titles of each one, nope, not a one was available.

I never bothered with them again. To be fair, it was not all that long when prints stopped selling completely. I had four flip racks of prints, now I have one. I do not think I have sold anything from it in over a year.

So, I do not believe the sale of Liebermans will have much of an impact on our industry at all. The only hope would be that they follow Bob's advise and do a few end runs. More prints sold on the Internet give more chances of one of us getting a framing order out of it.

John
 
PaulSF said:
Customer came in today looking for motivational posters. Retail price plus shipping via Liebermans would be $75. Retail price plus shipping at Art.com was $70, and with the 20% off if you buy it right this very second, the price would be $59.

Two of the prints were a dollar less at Art.com, while the other two were the same price. Shipping was half the usual shipping charge from Liebermans. And then there's 20% off.
Click to expand...

Paul,
Don't you get the normal discounting at Liebermans plus the additional 5% if you order on line? If you don't have a wholesale account set up with them you will pay retail, but the account is there to be had for a quick phone call. They show retail pricing on everything until you place your order, then the discounts are shown.
 
Kirstie,

If the customer were in my neck of the woods, Sussex County, I would have accepted the shipment at my location N/C, once for a fellow Grumbler, and at any time for a modest commission. It wouldn't bother me at all to have a customer see my shop while picking up your order.
 
Paul, assuming that they were looking at 3 prints at 30 each and shipping was 15 (I am guessing here) You had pleanty of room to be competitive with your LIebermans discount and the extra 5% for ordering online. Plus you could take a small hit on the prints if they frame them with you as an added bonus to them.
 
Wally and Tim,

I quote the Lieberman's prices vs. the Art.com prices because this is what the customer would see when searching for the prints. We were searching from the Liebermans website (way more up to date than Art Explorer), so the prices that show when the customer is searching are the retail prices. Yes, I know that I pay half of that, with another 5% off if I need to. But the customer has now taken her list with her, and may be searching online for the same things. And she'll find them at Art.com for a few dollars less, and we all know she won't be calling us to tell us this so we can match the price. She'll just place the order with Art.com and we'll never see her again.
 
Are you a consolidator or do you have inventory?
 
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