Left speechless, almost

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thehadmatter

CGF, Certified Grumble Framer
Joined
Oct 19, 2007
Posts
199
Loc
Central USA
I am left feeling very ignorant and inexperienced at the moment. Had a customer come in and ask about our hangers. She has a 50 lb. piece to hang and asked if the hangers we carry would really hold that weight. Sure I respond, haven't had any complaints in the year I have been here and the framer before me had been ordering this brand for several years. She then asks for an explanation, how could something this small hold when it's nailed into sheetrock? I'm stumped. After a moment of silence I tell that I just don't know. I explained that I've taken classes on how to cut mats, build frames, etc., but have never questioned or been advised on how these little pieces of molded metal will hold a 50 lb. frame on a wall.
In the end she seemed satisfied and bought the hangers.
One obstacle overcome today!
 
Although simple, that's a tricky question.

Yes, those wall hangers will 'work' if they're put into a wall material that supports itself. Tap it into a wall stud and you'll never have a problem...given the hanger is adequate for the weight of the frame.

On the other hand, heavy frames and mirrors should always use a wall anchor, if they're hung 'off stud'...especially in sheetrock. So are those hangers really designed to hold that much weight? Absolutely..but it depends on what wall materials you're up against and whether or not you're on a stud.

I don't sell hangers in my shop (or give them away) just because there are so many people who would use them incorrectly and result in injury...or worse. I also can't give advice on hanging based on what people tell me. Knowing the weight of the frame isn't enough.

We do installations for just this reason.

Here's some info for you:
http://www.dannylipford.com/diy-hom...cor/testing-wall-anchors-and-picture-hangers/
 
It's the way that the floreat hanger rests against the wall and supports the nail that helps to give it strength. Far stronger than just a nail alone. That said, it's wise to heed the above advice. With hanging heavy art, a little overkill is preferable to having something fall off the wall. There are security hangers, z-bars, french cleat methods and others that will really secure it better than just a floreat hanger. We give out floreat style hangers at our shop, but we also sell the sturdier things on jobs that need them.
 
janetj1968 said:
I don't sell hangers in my shop (or give them away) just because there are so many people who would use them incorrectly and result in injury...or worse. I also can't give advice on hanging based on what people tell me. Knowing the weight of the frame isn't enough.
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OK I am not trying to start anything here but really lets be real here, you say there are so many people who would use them incorrectly and cause injury or worse???????

Been in the business since 1991 and would say that a good educated guess would be that we have given out over 20,000 hangers with pictures and never have I heard of someone being injured by them. I am sure that maybe someone has somewhere at sometime but to say you don't give them out becuase people may injur themselves??????????
 
Tim, I can get hurt cleaning glass, I'm sure i can hurt myself hammering nails into the wall!

I think I have in fact. Turned around and took a step, while standing on a chair. The jarring crash with the floor didn't feel that great! Hammered my finger while holding the nail. Safety tip, don't hold the top of the nail steady with your finger. When hammer in a long nail be sure there is no electrical wire inside the wall!

OK j/k but Janet if you aren't giving away hangers because you are afraid your customers will nail it in wrong, the frame will drop and someone will get hurt, don't worry. 85% of the frames that come back in because they fell off the wall still have the hanger pack stapled to the wire! Of the 15% that don't I am pretty sure the hanger was taken off just as the customer was walking into the shop to complain about the hangers!

The majority of frames that come in that have fallen off the wall have fallen because the wire and/or screw-eyes have failed. Either the wire was too tight, got frayed and snapped or the wire was too tight and the screw-eyes pulled out of the frame. Or the frame was too thin, and the screw eyes pulled out. The hanger rarely was the culprit. When it was I am willing to wager that the customer was provided with 2 hangers, due to the weight f the frame, were told to use 2 hangers, and then only used 1. And the extra hanger is probably still stapled to the wire!
 
A wall hook is rated by the amount of weight it will support, not by the amount of weight the wall will support. So, if a 30-pound wall hook is pounded into a spackle-patched spot of sheetrock wall, it probably will not support 30 pounds.

FACTS standards recommend two wall hooks with a wired frame, so the 30 pound hangers would need to support only about half of that weight.

We always review hanging instructions with customers when they pick up finished frames. If there is any doubt about the wall hooks supporting the weight of the frame, we will provide screw anchors or modify the hanging system. Our WallBuddies require two wall hangers and are hard for ignorant, unwary, uncaring customers to abuse, but sometimes we use Z-Bar instead.
 
As to WHY they work, it is because the angle of the nail pushes the part of the hook that touches the wall firmly against the wall. This spreads out the force against the entire surface area of the hook back.

The only time I have had them fail is when we were hanging not-so-heavy artwork into a government building that had obviously been built by the lowest bidder. I have never seen sheetrock that was so flimsy both in thickness and in amount of plaster suspended between the paper facings. Those hangers would actually cut a groove in the wall as downward pressure was exerted.

We had to use those dandy screw-in-the-wall anchors for 16x20 pictures!
 
Some People

janetj1968 said:
I don't sell hangers in my shop (or give them away) just because there are so many people who would use them incorrectly and result in injury...or worse.
Click to expand...

In our litigious society I'm surprised the packaging doesn't caution the consumer not to ingest, do not stick in eye, wear eye and ear protection when installing, etc. etc.etc.

To reinforce Janet's concern, I think the biggest danger with these is that some people don't realize the nail goes in at an angle. They try to pound it straight in without the back of the hanger placed against the wall. As Jim says, it's good to explain the installation to some people. I was going to say especially women but I won't.
 
Doug Gemmell said:
As Jim says, it's good to explain the installation to some people. I was going to say especially women but I won't.
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Good decision, Doug. :shutup:

Besides, some of the men who buy framing are less mechanically-intuitive than women. The worst I ever met was a psychiatrist; he probably couldn't tell the difference between a screwdriver and an awl. Not that that's a bad thing...it's just unusual.
 
Jim Miller said:
Good decision, Doug. :shutup:

Besides, some of the men who buy framing are less mechanically-intuitive than women. The worst I ever met was a psychiatrist; he probably couldn't tell the difference between a screwdriver and an awl. Not that that's a bad thing...it's just unusual.
Click to expand...

Yea but I bet he could tell when a screw was loose!:party::shutup:
 
Chicken or Egg

Agreed. The few psychiatrists I know are crazier than a coon in a cider barrel. Except the one woman. She seems pretty normal.

I've always wondered if the job made them that way or if whack jobs are drawn to the profession.
 
95% of all frames we get back in here (either to switch out a photo or match the framing) still have the hangers we supplied on the back. Recently a repeat customer brought in a picture that fell off the wall and needed to be repaired. When I flipped it over, the hanger was still on the wire. I wiggled it and asked him what he used and he sheepishly said "just a nail":icon19:. It wasn't very big or heavy (less than 5 lbs.) Needless to say, I'm sure he used the hanger this time.
 
The hanging questions seem to come more and more these days - and frames and mirrors are getting bigger.

My first question to the inquiring customer is "How much does it weight?"

They never know or they guess so I ask them to go and weight the frame - amazing how many will call back and tell me it's 12 pounds and they're not worried any more - they had guessed 50 pounds.

We have a scale and weight the big ones so we can give good advise. We have a piece of drywall on 3 studs in the back and can actually show them how to put the anchors or nails in the wall. New drywall now and then.

We can also put a hanging system in the drywall and hang weights on until it fails - then we know the real deal.

The line in the sand for us is 60 pounds - no just in the drywall - French cleat - Z bars - something in studs period.

When we price big mirrors we include installation which seems to be a selling feature - hung 3 in a new home the other day.
 
Wall Buddies - Some customers love em and some hate em (I want to be able to move my art around) but I have a few complaints, about them.

1) I wish the screws weren't in a line - a good woodworker staggers screws to for less splitting.

2) Biggest complaint is just how little the frame has to be lifted to fall off the wall. I've been putting washers on screws in wall anchors for hanging Wall Buddies so it has to be lifted a good half inch before the bracket clears the hanger screws. I do this if the frame is hung where people can bump it - not needed behind the couch.
 
Jim Miller said:
The worst I ever met was a psychiatrist; he probably couldn't tell the difference between a screwdriver and an awl.
Click to expand...

Worst I met was a sex therapist - said the difference was bugger awl.

(There goes another worst joke, but screw it)
 
I guess I've decided to err on the side of caution...however, for a $.10 hanger it really doesn't seem like worth the risk to me.

I guess this comes from working for a gallery that had a similar policy. Although they gave away goodwill hangers with every order, the disclaimer stapled to it looked utterly ridiculous...

Call me silly... :)
 
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