Question Lecture for Artists
- Thread starter Less
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Baer Charlton
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Speak slowly...... and show them pictures that were taken in the Louvre.....
not in an art book.
All of their education (or lack there of) was from a book that had
few, if any, pictures of paintings in their frames.
I would powerpoint the image in the book, and fade in the image
as seen in the museum.
Point out that there is no serious museum where the art is unframed.
Even the three pieces that I personally know were painted in "gallery wrap"
format by Roy Lichtenstein that hand in the PAM, are framed......
(not to my taste or one that does the art justice - - but framed)
The local booster club may give out certificates that are "suitable for framing,
and noticeably not"..... but the White House and any body presenting something
of value, does so framed nicely.
The fastest way to depreciate your art, you talent and your name - - is to apply
none or cheap frames.
IMHO
not in an art book.
All of their education (or lack there of) was from a book that had
few, if any, pictures of paintings in their frames.
I would powerpoint the image in the book, and fade in the image
as seen in the museum.
Point out that there is no serious museum where the art is unframed.
Even the three pieces that I personally know were painted in "gallery wrap"
format by Roy Lichtenstein that hand in the PAM, are framed......
(not to my taste or one that does the art justice - - but framed)
The local booster club may give out certificates that are "suitable for framing,
and noticeably not"..... but the White House and any body presenting something
of value, does so framed nicely.
The fastest way to depreciate your art, you talent and your name - - is to apply
none or cheap frames.
IMHO
Jeff Rodier
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Mine has always been "If you don't show that you value your work why would a consumer consider it to have value".
Recommend me when someone with money buys it!
D_Derbonne
PFG, Picture Framing God
Is this for an art organization?
If they have guidelines for juried shows, you should familiarize yourself with those guidelines.
You could talk about what galleries are looking for in framed art, what makes a cohesive looking show, perceived value of art...the list goes on.
It depends on the group and what you're trying to accomplish.
Take some samples to show the difference between matting choices and frames.
good luck
If they have guidelines for juried shows, you should familiarize yourself with those guidelines.
You could talk about what galleries are looking for in framed art, what makes a cohesive looking show, perceived value of art...the list goes on.
It depends on the group and what you're trying to accomplish.
Take some samples to show the difference between matting choices and frames.
good luck
Before I went into the aspects of framing, I would give a sermon on signing their works anywhere away from the very edges of the piece so that when framed or matted, their full sig will remain visible. We deal with a lot of amateur artists, and this is an ongoing problem.
preservator
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Artists
A group of images that illustrate the damage that bad art and framing materials cause is a great starting point.
Hugh
A group of images that illustrate the damage that bad art and framing materials cause is a great starting point.
Hugh
C
Cliff Wilson
Guest
Less,
I am giving a talk next Monday (6/11/12) at the New England PPFA meeting about talking to groups.
We're in Sturbridge this time. There are two others giving talks about improving business in different ways. Certainly THEIR talks will be worth listening to!
One thing you should do is to ask them what they might be interested in.
There are many things YOU will want to tell them. and should, but you need to make sure you cover what they might be interested in. That can help get attendance up. They tend to have the same problems we do with getting people to come.
I am giving a talk next Monday (6/11/12) at the New England PPFA meeting about talking to groups.
We're in Sturbridge this time. There are two others giving talks about improving business in different ways. Certainly THEIR talks will be worth listening to!
One thing you should do is to ask them what they might be interested in.
There are many things YOU will want to tell them. and should, but you need to make sure you cover what they might be interested in. That can help get attendance up. They tend to have the same problems we do with getting people to come.
Framar
WOW Framer
I am working on a presentation entitled "Just because it is white does not make it safe" to show artists that stuff like white matboard an white foamboard and white tape do not have preservation properties just because they are white or say "acid free" on the package.
Last week a customer brought in a set of three of the most gorgeous watercolors by a really fine artist. She painted on 400 pound paper, used rag matting, and mounted each on acid free foam with nice glossy white tape, in the corners and on the edges of the front of the artwork. I am preparing a tutorial for this artist too! Oy vey.
Last week a customer brought in a set of three of the most gorgeous watercolors by a really fine artist. She painted on 400 pound paper, used rag matting, and mounted each on acid free foam with nice glossy white tape, in the corners and on the edges of the front of the artwork. I am preparing a tutorial for this artist too! Oy vey.
I would try to say Less as possible 
Seriously, unless your artists are different from mine...they are not very interested in hearing what we framers have to say. Exception for very professional artists who are willing to have the framer do what s/he knows best and are willing to at least look at options.
Is this is a group ready to be educated?
I would present a lot of visuals. Different framing of same art (cheap poster) to point out differences (you can also do this with a powerpoint so you don't have to carry all the actual samples). Get your audience involved by voting for their favorite.
Show what goes into a good framing package. Explain about glazing options. Bring samples samples samples of good and bad framing. (again, you can do this powerpoint as well)
Most important thing is getting your audience involved. Visuals and Q&A work well and keeps their attention.
Bring a piece of art and mats/moulding samples. Pick someone out of the audience and have him/her design. Then show other options or let someone else try.
Good luck!
Seriously, unless your artists are different from mine...they are not very interested in hearing what we framers have to say. Exception for very professional artists who are willing to have the framer do what s/he knows best and are willing to at least look at options.
Is this is a group ready to be educated?
I would present a lot of visuals. Different framing of same art (cheap poster) to point out differences (you can also do this with a powerpoint so you don't have to carry all the actual samples). Get your audience involved by voting for their favorite.
Show what goes into a good framing package. Explain about glazing options. Bring samples samples samples of good and bad framing. (again, you can do this powerpoint as well)
Most important thing is getting your audience involved. Visuals and Q&A work well and keeps their attention.
Bring a piece of art and mats/moulding samples. Pick someone out of the audience and have him/her design. Then show other options or let someone else try.
Good luck!
blackiris
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
This situation back fired on my a few years ago when I spoke to an Art Guild.
First off..... they didnt want to be told the RM mats they were cramming their work into were not good for their artwork........
Secondly......... they seriously do NOT CARE ABOUT THEIR WORK!! they told me right up front that NO ONE will pay for their pieces if the framing costs so much.
Thirdly...... They wanted me to critique their framing......
Of course when you say truthful honest answers........ people get all defensive........ WHATEVER.
FORTH........ after that .... a bijillion of them wanted to show thier work in my gallery............ UGH....
Fifth..... use small words... they did NOT know what glazing was. and they started getting that vacant look in their eyes and droolling when I was talking about conservation.....
6th..... GOd forbid they just get out of a college art class.... cuz their professors KNOW everything about frameing........
My opinion..... waste of time..... You are better off educating the customer when they bring the work in.
Artists are CHEAP.
First off..... they didnt want to be told the RM mats they were cramming their work into were not good for their artwork........
Secondly......... they seriously do NOT CARE ABOUT THEIR WORK!! they told me right up front that NO ONE will pay for their pieces if the framing costs so much.
Thirdly...... They wanted me to critique their framing......
Of course when you say truthful honest answers........ people get all defensive........ WHATEVER.FORTH........ after that .... a bijillion of them wanted to show thier work in my gallery............ UGH....
Fifth..... use small words... they did NOT know what glazing was. and they started getting that vacant look in their eyes and droolling when I was talking about conservation.....
6th..... GOd forbid they just get out of a college art class.... cuz their professors KNOW everything about frameing........
My opinion..... waste of time..... You are better off educating the customer when they bring the work in.
Artists are CHEAP.
C
Cliff Wilson
Guest
This situation back fired on my a few years ago when I spoke to an Art Guild.
First off..... they didnt want to be told the RM mats they were cramming their work into were not good for their artwork........
Secondly......... they seriously do NOT CARE ABOUT THEIR WORK!! they told me right up front that NO ONE will pay for their pieces if the framing costs so much.
Thirdly...... They wanted me to critique their framing......
FORTH........ after that .... a bijillion of them wanted to show thier work in my gallery............ UGH....
Fifth..... use small words... they did NOT know what glazing was. and they started getting that vacant look in their eyes and droolling when I was talking about conservation.....
6th..... GOd forbid they just get out of a college art class.... cuz their professors KNOW everything about frameing........
My opinion..... waste of time..... You are better off educating the customer when they bring the work in.
Artists are CHEAP.
Sorry, I completely disagree.
If you're interesting and informative they listen.
Then, even if they don't come to you for their own framing, they send people.
It might be a patron buying their art that wants to reframe it, or even a relative or friend.
When you stand at the front of a room and tell people about a subject, you become the expert and they rememebr you.
Often, they will give you a stipend for talking. Seriously, they pay you to market yourself and your business.
How can you not jump all over that?
Funny, about 'glazing'
I got an email inquiry from a photographer, with very limited information. So I sent a friendly email with questions (size, what kinda frame, mats?), and what kind of glazing he would like.
He went all high and mighty about that and he had never heard of someone using the word 'glazing'.
Never heard back from him. I am not broken up about that.
I got an email inquiry from a photographer, with very limited information. So I sent a friendly email with questions (size, what kinda frame, mats?), and what kind of glazing he would like.
He went all high and mighty about that and he had never heard of someone using the word 'glazing'.
Never heard back from him. I am not broken up about that.
Cliff, it depends so much on what group Less is talking to. I understand Nic's situation (because we all get those kind of 'arteests' as well) but as I said, I frame for a few very professional artists and they love to be educated. So, such a group, yes, absolutely worth doing a speech.
Maybe one day...when I'm brave enough to face an audience......shudder. (I really wished I could come on Monday......I really wanted to!)
Maybe one day...when I'm brave enough to face an audience......shudder. (I really wished I could come on Monday......I really wanted to!)
Jeff Rodier
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
I've given many talks to the groups and here is what I have found. I sell standard paper mats and that's what they mostly buy so no big deal since they are much better than even a decade or 2 or 3 back. They now hinge work rather than using a half roll of masking tape etc. I don't try to force them into conservation materials but they do know the difference now and can make educated decisions. I refuse to sell white core basics because if my name is on an item with a white core that is an assurance of conservation matting. No need to force anything, just educate and get them to use something that compliments the work so it doesn't look like Wal-Mart framing.
blackiris
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
I did. I'm giving you the RESULTS of what my experience was.
I have one lady ..... ONE out of that group that comes to get UV glass from me to use with her RM frames and store bought mats.
Artists are CHEAP.... from thier mouths....... they will NOT pay for custom framing because they want people to buy their art. I've been dealing with commisioned art for 5 years now..... its the same agrument with every single one of them. Maybe its different where you are.
Sometimes Less is More. :smiley:
If you think your ginormous pastel will need dry-mounting, do it before you execute the work rather than after.
If you don't want to spend a fortune on frames, don't make life difficult for the framer.
If you think your ginormous pastel will need dry-mounting, do it before you execute the work rather than after.
If you don't want to spend a fortune on frames, don't make life difficult for the framer.
Less, I thnk you need to be more specific about the artist, or group of artists involved. I prepared a talk on framing for a Camera Club thinking that they would have some basic knowledge. Boy was I wrong. Rather than talking about preservation framing as I had planned, I ended up doing a basic design theory lecture. They knew how to operate the equipment, but had no clue about composition, color, etc. I did talk a bit about framing, but downplayed it a bit, because the examples that they had on display had little if any redeeming artistic value.
On the other hand, I had to spend some time in research (using the G as well) to talk with an artist at a pretty technical level about framing their art. The difference being is the latter was deeply concerned about every detail of the framing and presentation of her work, and it was a conversation, not a lecture.
On the other hand, I had to spend some time in research (using the G as well) to talk with an artist at a pretty technical level about framing their art. The difference being is the latter was deeply concerned about every detail of the framing and presentation of her work, and it was a conversation, not a lecture.
Jeff Rodier
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
The most prosperous lectures I have done have been how they can control the costs of framing. Handed out charts showing sizes they should work in so they don't end up in high cost sizes and dimensions.
Not only would I talk to them about protecting their hard work, and creative outlet, I would also talk to them about the fact that as an artist, the framing is part of the art.
I had a greeting card that was a picture of Washington DC in winter, and I mounted it with corners on a backing board of Acid Free Foam core... then I cut five different choices of mats. All of them fit in an 8X10. this way I could show how all of the choices looked good with the print, and all of them pulled your eye to different things in the image. Then I had one mat cut with wider borders, and made it fit an 11X14. Each time I pulled it out, I showed how different color choices could change the feeling of the picture, and I showed how a wider mat can make a small picture look more dramatic.
Something like this would be a good thing to show artists that they should look at framing as a way of enhancing thier artwork, as well as protecting it for the future.
If you can, take some small samples for them to take with them. any time they walk away with something in their hands, they tend to listen and remember you better.
I had a greeting card that was a picture of Washington DC in winter, and I mounted it with corners on a backing board of Acid Free Foam core... then I cut five different choices of mats. All of them fit in an 8X10. this way I could show how all of the choices looked good with the print, and all of them pulled your eye to different things in the image. Then I had one mat cut with wider borders, and made it fit an 11X14. Each time I pulled it out, I showed how different color choices could change the feeling of the picture, and I showed how a wider mat can make a small picture look more dramatic.
Something like this would be a good thing to show artists that they should look at framing as a way of enhancing thier artwork, as well as protecting it for the future.
If you can, take some small samples for them to take with them. any time they walk away with something in their hands, they tend to listen and remember you better.
Bob Doyle
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Cliff, I agree with you, but Nicole has some very valid points 
I spoke for a couple of arts groups. They have monthly meetings and had asked me to speak at a couple for them. Wanted to have their framing validated not critiqued. Wanted to have their use of rm mats and frames validated, not critiqued. But really wanted to have me there so that they could come to my shop and say "we met at the ....meeting, I'd like to hang my work in your gallery". Some of the works were great, some were "not". The great artists were not the ones that came to my shop
But I did bring in artwork that had been framed in ready mades. I did show them the acid burns on the artwork. I did cut out the images and show them the quality of work the artist covered up because the ready made mat opening wasn't the proper size. I did tell them that properly displayed art does sell better and at a higher price than slapped together ready mades. They didn't want to hear it. BUT the ones that did hear it listened. And they all were happy to hear that if a customer brought their art to me I would give them a 10% discount. Sadly I think that only validated their use of cheap materials for framing.
I spoke for a couple of arts groups. They have monthly meetings and had asked me to speak at a couple for them. Wanted to have their framing validated not critiqued. Wanted to have their use of rm mats and frames validated, not critiqued. But really wanted to have me there so that they could come to my shop and say "we met at the ....meeting, I'd like to hang my work in your gallery". Some of the works were great, some were "not". The great artists were not the ones that came to my shop
But I did bring in artwork that had been framed in ready mades. I did show them the acid burns on the artwork. I did cut out the images and show them the quality of work the artist covered up because the ready made mat opening wasn't the proper size. I did tell them that properly displayed art does sell better and at a higher price than slapped together ready mades. They didn't want to hear it. BUT the ones that did hear it listened. And they all were happy to hear that if a customer brought their art to me I would give them a 10% discount. Sadly I think that only validated their use of cheap materials for framing.
C
Cliff Wilson
Guest
This is the post I typed yesterday, but it got lost. Thank you Wally for telling me how to retrieve it. ...
First, Ylva, the number one fear people have according to the Book of Lists is "Fear of Public Speaking;" "Fear of Dying" is 5th on the list. So, you are not alone. There are ways to reduce the anxiety. Too bad you're not coming.
Nic, my artists are no different than your artists.
I think you both are slightly missing my point.
No matter how "cheap" they may be, or how little direct business you get from them, they remember you.
If you're professional and informative (like most of us are at our design counter) they will tell others.
Most shop owners say the number one source of NEW business is from word-of-mouth. Other than just doing a good job, talking to groups of ALL kinds is probably the best way to positively effect word-of-mouth.
I've talked to high school art classes, college art classes, night life art classes, artist groups, historical societies, the ladies group at the country club and even a retired men's club to name just a few. ALL help!
It is important to try to get a handle on what they are looking for and make sure at least some of the talk is directed in that direction. Ask them for a list of questions ahead of time.
P.S. Bob, I wasn't and aren't saying what Nic experienced didn't or won't happen. What I am saying is in the long run it will be worth it. Re: exhibiting in your gallery. Just say no. politely of course.
... Artists are CHEAP.... Maybe its different where you are.
First, Ylva, the number one fear people have according to the Book of Lists is "Fear of Public Speaking;" "Fear of Dying" is 5th on the list. So, you are not alone. There are ways to reduce the anxiety. Too bad you're not coming.
Nic, my artists are no different than your artists.
I think you both are slightly missing my point.
No matter how "cheap" they may be, or how little direct business you get from them, they remember you.
If you're professional and informative (like most of us are at our design counter) they will tell others.
Most shop owners say the number one source of NEW business is from word-of-mouth. Other than just doing a good job, talking to groups of ALL kinds is probably the best way to positively effect word-of-mouth.
I've talked to high school art classes, college art classes, night life art classes, artist groups, historical societies, the ladies group at the country club and even a retired men's club to name just a few. ALL help!
It is important to try to get a handle on what they are looking for and make sure at least some of the talk is directed in that direction. Ask them for a list of questions ahead of time.
P.S. Bob, I wasn't and aren't saying what Nic experienced didn't or won't happen. What I am saying is in the long run it will be worth it. Re: exhibiting in your gallery. Just say no. politely of course.
Dave
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
These are subtle suggestions but I believe well worth presenting to the artists and may actually garner your shop some business. They are things I learned from working in a relatively high end gallery for the past few years and will help them either get gallery representation or show better at art fairs and other venues.
~ Settle on two or three standardized frame mouldings, liners, etc. for your frames and frame everything you do in one of these designs.
~ Settle on custom standard sizes. By this I mean use several sizes that are custom to you, not the standard sizes that readymades come in. You might use 19X24, 20X30, 30X30, 36X36 and 30X40 for instance.
It will accomplish several things for you.
When you show your work, either in a gallery or any other venue, your work will have a cohesive look. In a gallery the work will easily be identified as yours because the frame design will help to "group" the work. It also will not be standard "standard sizes" and will differentiate your work from others. The pieces will both look and be custom.
You can sell the artwork framed or unframed and re-use the frame on another piece because the frame was not created unique to the piece. Or a customer may choose another one of your other framing designs and you will have that frame on hand to quickly switch out and close the deal.
If you choose to adopt that which I outlined above, talk to your framer about your plan of using only a couple different frame designs in a few different sizes. Work with them to find what designs work best with your work and then commit to ordering a number of frames in these designs and sizes. Ask them to give you their best price on your initial order and find out what additional frames in the designs and sizes chosen will cost you in units of one, three and six. A framer should be willing to work with you to get you the best possible price ongoing with the program.
(Cliff... here's where you say that you would be more than happy to discuss your "Artist's Program" with anyone interested in this concept.)
~ Settle on two or three standardized frame mouldings, liners, etc. for your frames and frame everything you do in one of these designs.
~ Settle on custom standard sizes. By this I mean use several sizes that are custom to you, not the standard sizes that readymades come in. You might use 19X24, 20X30, 30X30, 36X36 and 30X40 for instance.
It will accomplish several things for you.
When you show your work, either in a gallery or any other venue, your work will have a cohesive look. In a gallery the work will easily be identified as yours because the frame design will help to "group" the work. It also will not be standard "standard sizes" and will differentiate your work from others. The pieces will both look and be custom.
You can sell the artwork framed or unframed and re-use the frame on another piece because the frame was not created unique to the piece. Or a customer may choose another one of your other framing designs and you will have that frame on hand to quickly switch out and close the deal.
If you choose to adopt that which I outlined above, talk to your framer about your plan of using only a couple different frame designs in a few different sizes. Work with them to find what designs work best with your work and then commit to ordering a number of frames in these designs and sizes. Ask them to give you their best price on your initial order and find out what additional frames in the designs and sizes chosen will cost you in units of one, three and six. A framer should be willing to work with you to get you the best possible price ongoing with the program.
(Cliff... here's where you say that you would be more than happy to discuss your "Artist's Program" with anyone interested in this concept.)
What Baer, Jeff, and Dave said. Especially the "speak slowly", us arteests are such mauroons. 
One of my thoughts:
Your art will always be in some context, subject to the whims of its environment. If you choose to not frame your art than all control of its environment will be in the hands of others. If you frame you have some control over the immediate environment that your art is in.
One of my thoughts:
Your art will always be in some context, subject to the whims of its environment. If you choose to not frame your art than all control of its environment will be in the hands of others. If you frame you have some control over the immediate environment that your art is in.
Dave
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Exactly! Like this.
Puppyraiser
PFG, Picture Framing God
I teach a class called "Thirty Years in Thirty Minutes", in which I share what I have learned about framing.
1. The difference between paper mats and rag mats "The good stuff ain't cheap and the cheap stuff ain't good"
2. How to properly hinge/ attach art and 'booking the mat'.
3. How changing the color and width of the mats can change the look of the art.
4. How to use 'garage sale' frames to produce a pretty good look. ( measure frame, touch it up/paint it well, figure mat sizes, THEN produce the art to fit in the package.)
5. Standard sizes of ready made frames.
6. How to sign your art so the framer doesn't hate you.
7. Fitting a frame.
8. Suggest that they frame one piece spectacularly and the rest adequately. When someone asks how much the art is without the frame reply "The frame is my gift for you. It will protect the art until you can get it to your custom framer."
9. Hand out certificates for 10% off framing.
Yeah, it has made me money....
1. The difference between paper mats and rag mats "The good stuff ain't cheap and the cheap stuff ain't good"
2. How to properly hinge/ attach art and 'booking the mat'.
3. How changing the color and width of the mats can change the look of the art.
4. How to use 'garage sale' frames to produce a pretty good look. ( measure frame, touch it up/paint it well, figure mat sizes, THEN produce the art to fit in the package.)
5. Standard sizes of ready made frames.
6. How to sign your art so the framer doesn't hate you.
7. Fitting a frame.
8. Suggest that they frame one piece spectacularly and the rest adequately. When someone asks how much the art is without the frame reply "The frame is my gift for you. It will protect the art until you can get it to your custom framer."
9. Hand out certificates for 10% off framing.
Yeah, it has made me money....
Bob Doyle
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Ellen, great tips. one more and it would be a top ten things to do for an art show/auction... Or make a great check list for an art auction.
JWB9999999
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
I love Ellen's list.
As someone else suggested, it's important to establish what your audience wants to hear about. I was asked once by a group to speak to them.
I said no.
Why? Because what they wanted was for me to teach them how to frame, so they could all order direct from my distributors and do their own framing. The people asking me weren't even customers of mine. But they all agreed that getting something framed at a frame shop is definitely too expensive and they could certainly do just as good of a job by themselves.
I've given a couple of talks to civic organizations. In those cases I showed some examples and explained some of the options in framing, like different kinds of mat and glass. Nothing too complicated, because their eyes would start glazing over. Honestly, the fact that frames come in gold AND silver colors is already a great surprise and kind of overwhelming to some. So I try to give just enough detail to help them understand that framing is more than just 4 sticks of wood. I've also found that they also like to be told about unusual things that you have framed.
As someone else suggested, it's important to establish what your audience wants to hear about. I was asked once by a group to speak to them.
I said no.
Why? Because what they wanted was for me to teach them how to frame, so they could all order direct from my distributors and do their own framing. The people asking me weren't even customers of mine. But they all agreed that getting something framed at a frame shop is definitely too expensive and they could certainly do just as good of a job by themselves.
I've given a couple of talks to civic organizations. In those cases I showed some examples and explained some of the options in framing, like different kinds of mat and glass. Nothing too complicated, because their eyes would start glazing over. Honestly, the fact that frames come in gold AND silver colors is already a great surprise and kind of overwhelming to some. So I try to give just enough detail to help them understand that framing is more than just 4 sticks of wood. I've also found that they also like to be told about unusual things that you have framed.
EMcBride
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
I'd like to tell them not to run to their local office supply store with their pretty little picture, run off 50 copies on the cheapest paper they have, slap a number and a signature on it and call it a limited edition.
Bob Doyle
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Hey! That's exactly what my customers do too My first landlord used to pride herself on the number of customers she sent to me. All artists that wanted the show piece framed up to go with the 300 "prints" she ran off her color copier for them.
My first landlord used to pride herself on the number of customers she sent to me. All artists that wanted the show piece framed up to go with the 300 "prints" she ran off her color copier for them.
Framar
WOW Framer
Ellen - I love your list - especially #6 and #8.
I have one really great artist who spends weeks on each digital piece, beginning with catching his image in just the right lighting conditions, then manipulating it in PS, having them printed on the finest art paper, embellishing with color pencil, and having me place lovely Artcare matting around them - only to stick them in those awful BB composite frames with the masonite backings and the swivel hooky-doodles on the back. Not even any room for a rag backing, barely enough room for a mat.
You know those big glossy frames with the damage hidden under lovely cardboard corners?
Every year I tell him that his frames are garbage - he may as well Xerox his work onto newsprint.
Grrrrrr......
I have one really great artist who spends weeks on each digital piece, beginning with catching his image in just the right lighting conditions, then manipulating it in PS, having them printed on the finest art paper, embellishing with color pencil, and having me place lovely Artcare matting around them - only to stick them in those awful BB composite frames with the masonite backings and the swivel hooky-doodles on the back. Not even any room for a rag backing, barely enough room for a mat.
You know those big glossy frames with the damage hidden under lovely cardboard corners?
Every year I tell him that his frames are garbage - he may as well Xerox his work onto newsprint.
Grrrrrr......
Bob Doyle
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Mar I do the local framing for a photographer in NC. His images are 30 by 32, finished glass size 40 by 42. 8 ply rag mats, nice thick deep moulding. He gets $5000 for his framed work. Never heard a customer complain, and I know the gallery owner would tell me if there was a problem
Another photog whose OCD is nearly s bad as your artist's sounds like won't print above 13 by 19, because that is the largest his printer will go. Talks to me for hours about the lighting, the paper, how he has to send away to Belgium to get the right inks, fresh squeezed from albino tortoises lactating under a crescent moon I think he said. Wants me to use black wood frames or the same ones you talked about.
If he would just let me go crazy and frame it up as I want I know he could be getting more than the $100 he's asking. He should be doing what the NC photog does, and when he saw a finished frame all he could do was critique the fiber count in the paper....
Another photog whose OCD is nearly s bad as your artist's sounds like won't print above 13 by 19, because that is the largest his printer will go. Talks to me for hours about the lighting, the paper, how he has to send away to Belgium to get the right inks, fresh squeezed from albino tortoises lactating under a crescent moon I think he said. Wants me to use black wood frames or the same ones you talked about.
If he would just let me go crazy and frame it up as I want I know he could be getting more than the $100 he's asking. He should be doing what the NC photog does, and when he saw a finished frame all he could do was critique the fiber count in the paper....
Framar
WOW Framer
To expand on this brilliant suggestion, for artists who are displaying in outdoor shows, I suggest clear bags for matted pieces which avoid the expense for framing. Photographers especially tend to have way too many items to display and bags are the perfect solution.
Many customers bring me bagged matted items for framing. I save and reuse these bags, passing them along to the next artists who need them.
free2beme
CGF, Certified Grumble Framer
Let them know to leave a natual border to their art for what the frame/mat will cover up. The importance of conservation framing for preframed art they are selling, don't they want thier art to still look good years down the road? More often then not I have to beg an artist to properly frame/mat something, they just want it done cheaply as possible, not correctly, my biggest peave.
Bob Doyle
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
I have quite a few artists that write on their work, with pen, where they want the mat to cover. Usually when they grab for the pan to start marking their art i can grab the pens, but not always
I have gotten their work in after a customer buys it and when the customer sees the work that the artist covered they want me to show it. Some of the best work gets covered so that the artist in question can fit it into a smaller mat and frame. She also used to just grab a knife and cut the painting down to size. I was able to talk her out of that habit, but never could stop the pen, or the multiple signatures......
I have gotten their work in after a customer buys it and when the customer sees the work that the artist covered they want me to show it. Some of the best work gets covered so that the artist in question can fit it into a smaller mat and frame. She also used to just grab a knife and cut the painting down to size. I was able to talk her out of that habit, but never could stop the pen, or the multiple signatures......
And then you have the customers who want to keep the artists' lines so you can see them.
(meekly holding my hand up to ask a couple questions)
Recently I visited a local framer about having work done. He told me what he would do with the work but referred me to this site for more information about my project. I started reading threads and have learned a lot so far.
Several threads have indicated a problem for framers when the artist does not leave enough blank canvas/paper/fabric for framing. What would be an appropriate amount to leave?
Also, in our family we have kids learning on the (cheap) preprimed, wood stretched canvases we buy at Michaels, Hobby Lobby, etc. Are those canvases suitable for framing, ever? Or are they basically throw-aways, just for practice?
Polly
Recently I visited a local framer about having work done. He told me what he would do with the work but referred me to this site for more information about my project. I started reading threads and have learned a lot so far.
Several threads have indicated a problem for framers when the artist does not leave enough blank canvas/paper/fabric for framing. What would be an appropriate amount to leave?
Also, in our family we have kids learning on the (cheap) preprimed, wood stretched canvases we buy at Michaels, Hobby Lobby, etc. Are those canvases suitable for framing, ever? Or are they basically throw-aways, just for practice?
Polly
Jeff Rodier
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
None of the signature should ever get closer than 1/2" from the edge of the artwork but 3/4" is safer. Buy the Fredrix brand canvas since the promotional ones are often times out of square and have warping problems. You can find them on sale regularly for almost the same cost as the cheapest but if you have a canvas that is out of square you may end up spending a bunch of extra money getting it framed. Out of square canvases often times won't fit into ready made frames.
Welcome to the Grumble
Welcome to the Grumble
JWB9999999
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Ok, first, there is unstretched, rolled up canvas, and then there are the pre-stretched canvases.
For an unstretched canvas:
Different framers will use different stretching techniques and different kinds of stretcher bar. In my shop, we ask that artists leave 1 1/2" of blank canvas around to do a proper stretching. More is fine. Less is not so much. But there are techniques that some framers use to actually add "blank canvas" to the sides of the canvas when a canvas has been painted all the way to the edge. This adds to the cost of the stretching, of course, but can be done if necessary.
For the pre-stretched canvas:
There are better brands, and cheap brands that are best suited as fireplace kindling. Fredrix, as Jeff mentioned, is a good one. I've seen the regular ones from HL and M's and they are also fine in my opinion. But there are also ones that come from deep discount stores that are just terrible; I tell my customers to avoid the ones from those places. If they fail to heed my advice, it's usually only a few times and then they start to notice how badly many of them are out of square, wrinkled, in need of re-stretching, etc., and then they do take my advice.
For an unstretched canvas:
Different framers will use different stretching techniques and different kinds of stretcher bar. In my shop, we ask that artists leave 1 1/2" of blank canvas around to do a proper stretching. More is fine. Less is not so much. But there are techniques that some framers use to actually add "blank canvas" to the sides of the canvas when a canvas has been painted all the way to the edge. This adds to the cost of the stretching, of course, but can be done if necessary.
For the pre-stretched canvas:
There are better brands, and cheap brands that are best suited as fireplace kindling. Fredrix, as Jeff mentioned, is a good one. I've seen the regular ones from HL and M's and they are also fine in my opinion. But there are also ones that come from deep discount stores that are just terrible; I tell my customers to avoid the ones from those places. If they fail to heed my advice, it's usually only a few times and then they start to notice how badly many of them are out of square, wrinkled, in need of re-stretching, etc., and then they do take my advice.
Jeff Rodier
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
I have been seeing for several years now that Windsor Newton which has always been the premium canvas has major issues. The canvas is the same but they are using some swampwood as stretcher bars for pre-stretched canvas. This is some of the worst lumber I have ever seen in my life and I've been at this since the 70's.
Welcome Polly. :smiley:
Good question and it comes down a lot to thinking ahead. I often have artists insisting that they want to see the maximum image area which sometimes means very fine tuning of the frame size, working to the sight size rather than the rabbet size of the frame. Now if the artist had left maybe 1/4" 'no-man's-land' on the edge, knowing that it would have to go into a frame, all the better for all concerned. I often get drawings to frame were the artist has done the work in one corner or one end and drawn a few lines round to delineate the bit that he wants to show. Which is helpful, even if I do have to trim the paper (with permission). Even have one artist who will do several oils on a big board and gets me to saw them out. Well at least I can saw square.
Professional artists generally present their work in an easily frameable form. There is a lot of craft as well as art involved and the practical aspects need to be considered. It's the 'art college divas' that usually come up with nightmare framing jobs. And they don't want to spend a lot.
From an artistic point of view, it is desirable to paint beyond the image area. Particularly on landscapes. You can follow though the brushstrokes on the extremities and then come in a bit with the mat or frame. Painting right up to the edge and stopping gives a subliminal impression that the prospect is confined to the frame and there isn't anything beyond.
As for pre-stretched canvases, they vary. Some are OK, some have bars made of weird wood that can bend alarmingly in the middle. What really is a pain is that most are 'gallery wrap' type bars that can be 1 1/2" deep. Even small sizes. And when the artist decides they would like a 10x12 in a deep scoop frame with a liner you have to explain that it will stand off the wall to silly degree. Of course I can remount these on standard depth bars, but that would work out dearer than buying a 'proper' canvas in the first place.
Good question and it comes down a lot to thinking ahead. I often have artists insisting that they want to see the maximum image area which sometimes means very fine tuning of the frame size, working to the sight size rather than the rabbet size of the frame. Now if the artist had left maybe 1/4" 'no-man's-land' on the edge, knowing that it would have to go into a frame, all the better for all concerned. I often get drawings to frame were the artist has done the work in one corner or one end and drawn a few lines round to delineate the bit that he wants to show. Which is helpful, even if I do have to trim the paper (with permission). Even have one artist who will do several oils on a big board and gets me to saw them out. Well at least I can saw square.
Professional artists generally present their work in an easily frameable form. There is a lot of craft as well as art involved and the practical aspects need to be considered. It's the 'art college divas' that usually come up with nightmare framing jobs. And they don't want to spend a lot.
From an artistic point of view, it is desirable to paint beyond the image area. Particularly on landscapes. You can follow though the brushstrokes on the extremities and then come in a bit with the mat or frame. Painting right up to the edge and stopping gives a subliminal impression that the prospect is confined to the frame and there isn't anything beyond.
As for pre-stretched canvases, they vary. Some are OK, some have bars made of weird wood that can bend alarmingly in the middle. What really is a pain is that most are 'gallery wrap' type bars that can be 1 1/2" deep. Even small sizes. And when the artist decides they would like a 10x12 in a deep scoop frame with a liner you have to explain that it will stand off the wall to silly degree. Of course I can remount these on standard depth bars, but that would work out dearer than buying a 'proper' canvas in the first place.
Dave
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Welcome to the "G", Polly.
Thanks for asking the questions you are asking. If more artists and instructors were concerned about such things then their art would last longer and be easier, and thus less expensive, to frame.
The quality of most stretcher strips that are mass marketed have sadly deteriorated over the years as has the quality of many canvases. Even Frederix and Winsor & Newton's, two premium brands, are not what they were decades ago. I used to stock regular Anco strips up to 96" and rarely found a warped strip. Now even a 12" stick can be somewhat warped.
Thanks for asking the questions you are asking. If more artists and instructors were concerned about such things then their art would last longer and be easier, and thus less expensive, to frame.
The quality of most stretcher strips that are mass marketed have sadly deteriorated over the years as has the quality of many canvases. Even Frederix and Winsor & Newton's, two premium brands, are not what they were decades ago. I used to stock regular Anco strips up to 96" and rarely found a warped strip. Now even a 12" stick can be somewhat warped.
Jesse
CGF, Certified Grumble Framer
Excellent thread. I've enjoyed reading this. I love the line about the price with out framing, the frame is my gift. Love it.
preservator
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Artists
This is an excellent thread, indeed, and it reminds one the possible synergy that might be developed between artist and framer, with the framer maximizing profit by selling materials and the artist minimizing costs by providing labor.
Hugh
This is an excellent thread, indeed, and it reminds one the possible synergy that might be developed between artist and framer, with the framer maximizing profit by selling materials and the artist minimizing costs by providing labor.
Hugh
Jeff Rodier
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Providing materials to artists is at least half my business. In the last 2 weeks I have cut at least 20 boxes of high end mouldings into ready made frames for an ongoing sale I have in place right now. I've sold over 200 frames and 150 stretched artist's canvases in under 2 weeks and traffic has been very low because temperatures have been near 100 degrees.
I began selling Fredrix canvas because of how low the quality of the cheap canvas they were buying was. I sell the standard Red label for general painting, the Blue label for portraits and the new Brown label Pro Dixie for those that want better canvas. I always sell the Fredrix at 50% off of retail so they don't but the promotional junk at the craft stores or online.
Canvas creates frame sales and ready made frames create canvas sales. I keep at least 1,000 ready made frames at all times and give a 50% discount to members of art guilds and camera clubs. I make ready made frames from some of the best mouldings in the world that I buy in large quantities. I never make cheap black frames because my only goal is that the artwork sells for the artist. I make it clear that if they sell the art they need another frame.
I have had to deal with a lot of resistance from artists who have been taught to use cheap looking frames so it doesn't detract from the artwork. Teaching the artists that the frame is part of the final presentation and helps determine whether the work will sell takes some effort. I'm selling these artists 2"-5" wide hand finished or fine finish mouldings in place or the typical 1" black they would use and have them priced at close to the same price or less than a cheap frame. Once they make the switch and the artwork begins selling at a good rate they are convinced that what they were taught about the plain cheap frame was wrong. I'm selling to art guild members in 4 states on a regular basis with groups as large as 300 members.
Most buyers of decent original art know how much framing costs. My pricing is such that an artist can buy a $500 retail price frame for $60 (currently the highest price to the artists) or less at the 50% ready made discount I give guild members. Working with artists can be difficult but they are the most regular frame buyers out there. If you are going to work with them you should offer discounts to entire art guilds or camera clubs. The sale I'm running which has sold over 200 frames and 150 canvases is the result of one single e-mail I sent out. Once I have more frames built I will send the sale to the other guilds and add the camera clubs.
I began selling Fredrix canvas because of how low the quality of the cheap canvas they were buying was. I sell the standard Red label for general painting, the Blue label for portraits and the new Brown label Pro Dixie for those that want better canvas. I always sell the Fredrix at 50% off of retail so they don't but the promotional junk at the craft stores or online.
Canvas creates frame sales and ready made frames create canvas sales. I keep at least 1,000 ready made frames at all times and give a 50% discount to members of art guilds and camera clubs. I make ready made frames from some of the best mouldings in the world that I buy in large quantities. I never make cheap black frames because my only goal is that the artwork sells for the artist. I make it clear that if they sell the art they need another frame.
I have had to deal with a lot of resistance from artists who have been taught to use cheap looking frames so it doesn't detract from the artwork. Teaching the artists that the frame is part of the final presentation and helps determine whether the work will sell takes some effort. I'm selling these artists 2"-5" wide hand finished or fine finish mouldings in place or the typical 1" black they would use and have them priced at close to the same price or less than a cheap frame. Once they make the switch and the artwork begins selling at a good rate they are convinced that what they were taught about the plain cheap frame was wrong. I'm selling to art guild members in 4 states on a regular basis with groups as large as 300 members.
Most buyers of decent original art know how much framing costs. My pricing is such that an artist can buy a $500 retail price frame for $60 (currently the highest price to the artists) or less at the 50% ready made discount I give guild members. Working with artists can be difficult but they are the most regular frame buyers out there. If you are going to work with them you should offer discounts to entire art guilds or camera clubs. The sale I'm running which has sold over 200 frames and 150 canvases is the result of one single e-mail I sent out. Once I have more frames built I will send the sale to the other guilds and add the camera clubs.
I had quite a nice painting in a week or two back done on a cheapo 'gallery wrap' canvas. The customer wanted it in "one of those frames that doesn't cover up the edge." Fair enough I have the technology. Made the frame. Checked the rails against the canvas so they were a nice not-too-tight-not-too-much-gap fit. Hand-finished the frame. Came to put it together this afternoon. The canvas is about 1/4" out of square. Guess who is getting up early tomorrow to re-stretch it?
:icon9:
:icon9:
Framar
WOW Framer
Since I do not wish to reinvent the wheel by starting a new thread or by making up a chart like this, dearest Rickie - would you care to share your chart with poor beleaguered Lucy?
I am giving a talk to a group of artists on May 10.
Thanks!!!
Jeff Rodier
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
I am speaking to the guild again early June so will have a new one very soon I can hit you with. The guild has opened a 3,600 sq ft full time gallery in one of the most expensive shopping complexes here. The chart is composed of ideal sizes in canvas art as well as paper and photo sizes. I base it on the frame sizes I stock as well as canvas I sell.
I have a large number of artist/photographers fitting their own art using ready mades for a custom look. I use my custom frame moulding to make a huge number of ready mades as I try to keep around 1,000 at all times. Many are cutting their own mats so I sell full sheets of mat board and mat several times a weak. I sell Fredrix canvas at 50% off retail at all times so they know if they buy the canvas from me I have that size frame.
There will be sizes you won't need since it does not make sense without having the ready mades so you can just delete them from the chart. I'll get it together in plenty of time for you to use it.
I have a large number of artist/photographers fitting their own art using ready mades for a custom look. I use my custom frame moulding to make a huge number of ready mades as I try to keep around 1,000 at all times. Many are cutting their own mats so I sell full sheets of mat board and mat several times a weak. I sell Fredrix canvas at 50% off retail at all times so they know if they buy the canvas from me I have that size frame.
There will be sizes you won't need since it does not make sense without having the ready mades so you can just delete them from the chart. I'll get it together in plenty of time for you to use it.
Framar
WOW Framer
Thanks, Jeff!
I have been trying to tell artists to use standard sizes for years and most of the time they look at me blankly as if I had just suggested painting their watercolors with spatulas.
I have been trying to tell artists to use standard sizes for years and most of the time they look at me blankly as if I had just suggested painting their watercolors with spatulas.