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Shayla

Shayla

WOW Framer
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Joined
Apr 5, 2008
Posts
35,844
Loc
Washington State
What is something that was difficult for you when you first began framing,
but at which you have improved greatly over the years?

I suppose it could be something you've done all along & gotten much better at,
or something that you only learned after you'd been around awhile. It can be
about running the business, a certain technique, whatever.
 
I started this because I've been chatting with a Grumble friend about learning the business.
When I first started designing picture framing, it was hard for me to quote people the framing
prices. It helped that I wasn't the owner, so I hadn't decided them, but I still felt bad asking
for people's money. I finally had to just pretend to be someone different and fake it 'til
I made it. Or, as I told my friend, I pretended to be the future me, the one who was at
ease with giving out quotes. That helped a lot.

I'm curious what helpful advice you might have for newbie custom framers. Obviously, the
Grumble is filled with just that, but a new person can have a hard time knowing where to find
it. Thought that an encouraging thread might be in order.
 
My difficulties

The first was selling Museum glass. Once I finally realized it was a real benefit for customers, I started selling a lot more.

The second was mat decoration. This ranged from wrapped bevels, paper in open v grooves, painted bevels, gold leaf bevels, etc. I had a commercial customer where I had to mat "retreat photos", about 20 different ones in 3 or 4 days, and I could decide on the mat design and colors. So every year I would have a different design theme; one year was V-grooves, the next was panels, the next paper wrapped bevels, etc. after having to do so many at one time, I got rather good.

Now I have some kind of mat decoration on probably 90% of the Paper based framing i do, probably more painted bevels than anything else. And most other framers don't sell this benefit to the design. It takes a little time but the results are worth it. It is definitely worth the additional cost to the customer.
 
Sales with regard to framing structure. Decades ago, when something unusual came in, an oversize rug for example, I would rely on a key staff member to design the project. I was busy helping to run the business and also raising very young children. Reentry to framing after the easy and simple framing decades of the 70s and 80s was challenging in the 90s after a few year's break. Over the years I became comfortable with any project and now most of my staff turn to me for design advice on difficult projects. Now I welcome these because I know the various design solutions and I love being a problem solver. And if I don't know, I know how to find out.

How did I get from there to here? I read PFM (and Decor) from cover to cover. I took WCAF and PPFA classes, I read all of the major PPFA framing books, and finally, I read both the PPFA forum and the Grumble on a regular basis. It is amazing what we all pick up over time by casually reading about solutions to framing challenges here. We really are quite an educated bunch here on the forum, and we should all give ourselves a pat on the back for our continued interest in framing education.
 
You may laugh, but one of the first things I had trouble with was cutting glass! I understood the principle, but I just couldn't get it to snap!Thumb on either side of the score, roll the wrists out... nothing!

I do better these days....
 
On the business side: making money. It has gotten tougher over the years, but I've gotten enough better at it to stay ahead.
Other than that, I used to get absolutely tongue-tied talking on the phone to customers and vendors. A bit more comfortable now.

On the craft side: mat embellishment. What used to be hours of taping and measuring and drawing has been replaced with a few homemade jigs, some really good brushes and ruling pens (still looking for the holy grail of ruling pens) and a much steadier hand (confidence) so the wash panels are done freehand now. Only time I tape is when I use pastels.
 
Glass cutting is definitely something that gets easier with practice. The first delivery of full glass sheets I got were 6x4'. I was working from home then and the only flat place was the kitchen floor. The first cut was perfect. After that, every cut veered off the score and I ended up with lots of triangular-shaped bits. I did learn two things:

Don't use cheap glass cutters.

Floors in houses are seldom dead flat.

:o

Mat decoration is also a skill that is acquired though long practice. I once thought marker pens were the elegant solution. Never thought to test for light-fastness though......
 
The hardest thing for me to figure out was how to take time off.

In my 47 years of framing, which includes eleven years with Aaron Brothers working as first a framer, then a store manager, then a regional manager, I had a total of just three (3) one week vacations, and one two week vacation while owning my own business. One of them when I was with Aaron Brothers was cut short by two days by Len Aaron. The other one, I just cut out to spend a week with my GF and her family in Rocky River Ohio. Len Aaron was all miffed I didn't tell him I was going. He said he wanted me to call on some people in Cleavland. I told him that was why I didn't tell him.

With my own business, I had a total of one, week long vacation in Mazatlan, and a two week vacation in New York during my whole 35 years. The longest break I ever had while working was the three months between Aaron Brothers and opening my own business.

So, now that I am retired, I'm getting really good at taking time off, I'm almost a master of it. The first few months of retirement were incredibly stressful. Now I know why people kick the bucket soon after retiring.

Now that I have accepted that I'm nothing but a lazy- no- good- lay-a-bout, I am truly enjoying all this freedom to do nothing.

I have been slowly setting up a little wood working shop in my garage, but that is about all.

-John
 
.
.
.......:popc:
 
I think one of the toughest things to learn and understand is that you absolutely need to make enough profit on every job to stay in business. It's very easy to not charge for certain things whether by not foreseeing their need or the amount of time it will take to perform a task... or sometimes it's a matter of wanting to be a nice person.

When you undercharge a customer you are not doing them any favors because you may not be there the next time they need your services.
 
I trashed many large glass sheets until I got the knack. Once you know how you wonder why you ever battled.

I also battled with ink lines at first. A bit of practice and they're no problem.

I'm still totally useless at networking and marketing. I need to work on that BIG TIME.
 
Dealing with people was the hardest thing for me to learn. I started out liking people, customers, vendors and employees alike, but found that it took more than simply liking people to get along with them and get some work done. I got taken advantage of by just about everyone. I had to learn to discern between frankness and fraud, trustworthiness and treachery. It was hard.

I had to learn to say no to just about everybody that needed to hear it. I had to learn to base my business on my opinions about how to frame stuff, not give in to every wildhair idea that came through my door. I learned quickly about customers and still am- I am dealing with a small claims court process now and a deadbeat check writer. I absolutely hate policing my customers' actions, but it's in my job description.

I had to learn to say no to vendors who tried to tell me what samples to hang on my wall, how to price moulding, how to market.

Dealing with employees was by far the hardest- I always assumed that everyone meant well. They don't. I had to learn how to weed out the bad ones and be firm and fair about the weeding. I've had to deal with bogus unemployment claims and the horrifying bureaucracy associated with them. Yuck.

The hands on side of the business came easily to me. I love the tough stuff, I adore design, I crave sewing projects. What I do find difficult is to maintain mechanical stuff. My head about blew up at a computer hard drive crash, replacing an ailing air conditioner gave me hives, a recalcitrant underpinner makes me want to call my mommy, the sparking window display lights torment me, even replacing fluorescent light tubes makes me jittery, learning to troubleshoot the CMC made me love Mark Eaton The CMC Doctor with all my framing heart!

But, I love the autonomy, I love making decisions on the fly, I absolutely love my customers. So, it's worth it.

I think.

edie the iamthealphaframer goddess
 
curves. Learning literal curves.

Anything that wasn't a rectangle wanted to make me say "go away."

That was before CMCs though.
 
Framing Goddess said:
Dealing with people was the hardest thing for me to learn. I started out liking people, customers, vendors and employees alike, but found that it took more than simply liking people to get along with them and get some work done. I got taken advantage of by just about everyone. I had to learn to discern between frankness and fraud, trustworthiness and treachery. It was hard.

I had to learn to say no to just about everybody that needed to hear it. I had to learn to base my business on my opinions about how to frame stuff, not give in to every wildhair idea that came through my door. I learned quickly about customers and still am- I am dealing with a small claims court process now and a deadbeat check writer. I absolutely hate policing my customers' actions, but it's in my job description.

I had to learn to say no to vendors who tried to tell me what samples to hang on my wall, how to price moulding, how to market.

Dealing with employees was by far the hardest- I always assumed that everyone meant well. They don't. I had to learn how to weed out the bad ones and be firm and fair about the weeding..
Click to expand...

There's a lot of wisdom in that post, Edie.
:thumbsup: Rick
 
I agree with Rick. Loved it. :thumbsup:

Thanks, all, for sharing your thoughts. There's room for more....
 
Learning how to confidently quote large jobs.

Anyone can figure the cost/labor/profit of a large job, but being confident when you give the quote is a challenge in itself. Quoting six figure jobs aren't done through emails or on the phone.

If you can't come across as if it's something you've either done before or seem confident in doing you won't get the job, regardless of price. The client doesn't want to worry that halfway into the project you aren't capable of delivering on time or on budget.

It feels empowering to confidently quote jobs of 500 to 1000 pieces, but it was a learning curve.
 
It's the seven figure jobs I still have trouble with, Mark.

:icon11:
 
Dave said:
It's the seven figure jobs I still have trouble with, Mark.

:icon11:
Click to expand...

You do it all the time Dave. Just that 2 of the figures are to the right of the decimal point.:shrug:

Edie, it is a bit ironic that one of the reasons I thought this job would be ideal for me, is that I was under the misconception that I wouldn't have to deal with people ie. co-workers. I did pretty much get rid of that problem early on, but I was totally unprepared to deal with the rest of humanity that is involved in running a small business.
 
the tape measure.
For the life of me I couldn't grasp the concept of measuring
for a mat.
I got it after about a week in.

Whew! Glad to have gotten that off my conscience.
 
I seen qwestions from newcomers who totally can't grasp the concept of the measuring scale on a Morsø. Things get a lot clearer when you realise that leg of moulding has two ends. :kaffeetrinker_2:
 
I tried to edit the last post and seemed to have posted it twice. :o

I would use this post to impart more words of wisdom but I can't think of any ATM. :kaffeetrinker_2:
 
Mark, there may be folks here who don't realize that your post was meant sincerely.
That's understandable, and it reminds me of how varied a lot we all are. We might all
be framers, but our business models & ways of framing cover a wide range.

The most I've ever quoted someone was about $8000.00 to frame 19 prints, and even
though each one didn't come to all that much, I had to be brave to give the quote. What
helps me is knowing that I'm not trying to pressure the customer into buying the job, I'm
just coming up with options and then letting them know what it would cost. They're always
free not to do it, and I try to help them relax in that.
 
Something else that it helped to learn was being able to set a tone that everything
is under control. Meaning, it's easy to get flustered when you're designing with one
person, another walks in and then the phone starts ringing. The thing to remember
is that friendly communication does a lot to smooth situations. I make a point to
greet everyone who comes in, let them know how long I might be with the person
who was there first, and ask if they'd prefer to wait or leave their art so that I can
look at design ideas. If they leave it, even if they plan to come back in twenty
minutes, I get their name and phone number. The rule is, if art is left, get the info.

Some shops let interrupting calls go to voice mail, but at ours, my boss expects
all calls to be answered by the third ring. Including those that come during designing.
Our customers have always been wonderful about letting me do this, and they can
tell from the way I handle it that they are still my main priority.

Another part of setting a calm tone is, if someone ever calls or comes in and, for
some reason you can't track down their piece at that moment, it makes all the
difference knowing how to say that. Don't get an alarmed look on your face and
blurt out, 'I can't find it!' because they'll panic and think it's lost. Instead, on the
occasions this has happened to us, I've said, "I put it in a safe place, but now I'm having
a hard time finding it. The way this usually works, I find it two minutes after you walk
out." Having a sense of humor goes a long way. Likewise, if someone wants to know
the status of their job and you don't have the info. at your fingertips or are otherwise
detained, tell them you'll take their number, find out the answer and call them right
back. That can help to keep them from worrying if it's been lost in the shuffle.

hushing up for a bit....
 
Shayla, you knows the tricks! You pretty much have to be in control, own it, "work the room" is how I look at it. Humor is the grease on the wheels of happy dealings. I try to make it very clear to folks that I am very happy to see them come through my door and am having fun and they need to have fun, too! Let's party, yay!

This is a nice, thoughtful thread!

It's funny Wally, I thought having a shop meant LOTS of pleasant social dealings, imagine my surprise when I found myself working alone so often in the past. I like having people around at work, being their boss is a necessary evil. But when I go home, I am VERY happy to be alone. Go figure.

Now pardon me, while I go poke at the underpinner with a pitchfork, that'll help, won't it?

edie the workingit goddess
 
More thoughts:

First, it's okay to have set policies and, if you're the boss, it's also
okay to make the occasional exception.

One of the policies I have is that, with the exception of about two people,
I will only do the job if the customer has seen the design, heard the price
estimate and approved of both. You'll get people saying, 'Just come up
with something. I trust you. No need to quote the price.' I tell that that,
while it's nice to be trusted, I still want them to approve the design and
price before we proceed. This will save you motherloads of confusion.

You'll likely hear from Grumblers who routinely surprise their customers
with great designs, and I'm glad they have that ease. But it's something
to be very careful of, as clear communication in these areas protects
both sides.

Also, when a customer comes in to pick up, don't ask if they want to
see the finished job. That gives them the option of saying no, which isn't
a good idea. Instead, walk over, get it out and start unwrapping it without
even asking. If they say, 'You don't need to do that', just keep unwrapping
and say that it's your store policy. It really is wise, as it protects you from
having them break the glass or dent the frame later and blaming it on you.
Too, if you've made a mistake in the fitting, like the time I put a wire on
upside down, this will help you to catch it.
 
shayla said:
...Also, when a customer comes in to pick up, don't ask if they want to see the finished job. That gives them the option of saying no, which isn't a good idea. Instead, walk over, get it out and start unwrapping it without even asking. If they say, 'You don't need to do that', just keep unwrapping and say that it's your store policy. It really is wise, as it protects you from having them break the glass or dent the frame later and blaming it on you. Too, if you've made a mistake in the fitting, like the time I put a wire on upside down, this will help you to catch it.
Click to expand...

Good thinking. If they say I don't have to unwrap it I half-jokingly say, "No, this is the big reveal, like on those decorating shows on HGTV."

You and Edie seem to have practices very similar to mine. In any case, it's good to have a system and stick to it. It keeps things running a lot more smoothly.
:cool: Rick

BTW, I have an area on my work order for IN Storage and OUT Storage so I can remind myself if I put a piece in an atypical place for one reason or another.
 
Oh my gosh, yes on unwrapping their pieces upon pickup! I can't tell you how many times we've heard "that scratch wasn't there before" or "i don't remember that tear." Reference the work order notes, and boom. There it's documented, thanks!

For me, the biggest curve was being secure in my design and the information I give customers...I only started framing about three years ago, at nineteen. Luckily I have a fabulous boss and a knowledgeable coworker, and am fortunate enough to have attended WCAF the past two years. No more do I hesitate; I know what I'm doing, know what I'm selling, and am confident in my design eye. That confidence gives the customer confidence.

And of course if don't know, running in the back to grab the boss is always an option! :icon21:
 
Something on another thread reminded me of this.

If a customer brings in their own frame for us to use, we usually charge
a special fitting fee. Not always, but most of the time, as using their
frames can often complicate the job.

Too, if someone brings in a pre-made frame that they want a mat cut
for, be sure to check how deep it is. They're notorious for having room
for only one mat and not even a backing. Also, if someone says they
plan to go buy a ready made elsewhere, encourage them to be aware
of this fact and shop accordingly.

If someone brings in a frame that they've made themselves, pay attention
to frame depth, thickness of the wood (to make sure hanger screws won't
come through the front), whether it's in square, and whether the frame lip
is the same width all the way around. I once designed a mat for a man whose
barnwood frame had different lip widths. If I had based my mat size on the
inside back of the frame, as is customary, it would have looked 1/4" wider
on one side than the other. Fortunately, I noticed in time, so I made the mat
with uneven widths to appear even once fit. This is rare, but can happen.

We also learned that, with mirrors, the lip of the frame needs to be blackened,
lest it reflect in the mirror.
 
Thank You

Shayla...thank you for posting such a wonderful thread! Thank you to all of you who shared your experiences. As a new framer of now, 8 months it was encouraging to read through all these posts. I copied and pasted them into a word doc. to keep handy.

It's made me stop and think about what I might have gotten better at doing since I started. One of the things was that I always cut a sample mat before cutting the actually mat. (it was a good thing I had a lot of mat inventory to choose from) No matter what the project. I just didn't have the confidence to do it. (This was before getting my CMC and even for awhile after getting the CMC). Now it's only occasional and usually when I'm doing something new like a drop down window or multiple openings for a college with different size photos.

When I first started there were many nights I came home crying wondering "what made me think I could do this job". I had zero confidence in myself. I didn't know how to read a ruler and had cheat sheets everywhere. I didn't think I would ever learn how to read one! There are many reasons I'm so thankful for sticking with it and learning (and continuing to learn) the skill of framing.

Thank you again Shayla for putting this out there and to everyone who took the time to post.

Sunshine :)
 
walknonsunshine said:
Shayla...thank you for posting such a wonderful thread! Thank you to all of you who shared your experiences. As a new framer of now, 8 months it was encouraging to read through all these posts. I copied and pasted them into a word doc. to keep handy.

It's made me stop and think about what I might have gotten better at doing since I started. One of the things was that I always cut a sample mat before cutting the actually mat. (it was a good thing I had a lot of mat inventory to choose from) No matter what the project. I just didn't have the confidence to do it. (This was before getting my CMC and even for awhile after getting the CMC). Now it's only occasional and usually when I'm doing something new like a drop down window or multiple openings for a college with different size photos.

When I first started there were many nights I came home crying wondering "what made me think I could do this job". I had zero confidence in myself. I didn't know how to read a ruler and had cheat sheets everywhere. I didn't think I would ever learn how to read one! There are many reasons I'm so thankful for sticking with it and learning (and continuing to learn) the skill of framing.

Thank you again Shayla for putting this out there and to everyone who took the time to post.

Sunshine :)
Click to expand...


Don't worry, Sunshine...

Even after you have been framing for 10 or 20 years, you will STILL come home crying, wondering "what made me think I could do this job". :shutup:

PS: I still will cut multiple opening mats in scrap board and see how it looks before making the final mat. Better safe than sorry. :thumbsup:
 
I'm glad you've found it helpful, Sunshine. :smiley:

If anyone has more thoughts on this, feel free to post them.
 
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