Opinions Wanted Larson Juhl's Belmont

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ACFramer

CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
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May 2, 2007
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Kingston, NY
With the Tabacchino line being so successful for Roma, and my customers going :icon45: :icon21: over it, I figured that it would only be a matter of time until every supplier had some version of it.

I do appreciate the subtle scoops in the profile for the Belmont line, and in the larger profile, I love how the back panel scoops inward (something I loved AND hated about the Thornhill line, but has been corrected in this line since it levels off). I do, however, have to scoff a bit at the price. I can get Roma for just about the same cost, and God forbid I go to Studio's version for a lot less.

By the by, I heard tell that the designer of the Tabacchino line is now working with Studio and designed their version of this popular moulding.

Opinions?
 
FramerDave said:
If it's a very similar product why shouldn't it be the same price or nearly so? I'm sure it costs LJ as much to produce a given moulding as it does Roma. QUOTE]

While I agree somewhat with this statement, my argument is that you're paying for a different caliber of moulding. As I'm sure you and most other framers have experienced, a great deal of my customers feel that they have "discerning" taste, whatever that means. A lot of them find Roma's design concepts and products to be superior. It is, however, my job to offer different pricing options at different levels of quality. When people see something that had the initial fruition of design in a company that they trust and are willing to pay a lot for suddenly appear with other vendors, they typically expect to pay less for the "knock off."

The reason I started this thread was to gain others insight into the possibilities of selling this moulding at a similar price point to that of Roma. I realize the profile is a bit different, but what other advantages might it have? :kaffeetrinker_2:
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Pat Murphey said:
I don't get your problem. LJ has profiles that are as "valuable" as Roma profiles. And, they both have "cheap" offerings.
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I suppose it just takes educating my customers a bit more to make them realize that what you said is true. Most of them tend to view LJ as the Walmart of the moulding industry, which we all know isn't necessarily so.
 
ACFramer said:
I suppose it just takes educating my customers a bit more to make them realize that what you said is true. Most of them tend to view LJ as the Walmart of the moulding industry, which we all know isn't necessarily so.
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Why do you customers even know what brand of moudling you are using? Or even why do they care?
 
ACFramer said:
Most of them tend to view LJ as the Walmart of the moulding industry...
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Where in the world did they get that idea?

:confused:

Apparently you or your customers have not had the pleasure of dealing with some of the crappy suppliers/manufacturers as I have.
 
They care because they only want the "best" for their artwork (the "best," of course, is all in their head). They've done their research typically. For this reason, I keep polys and bonanza wood beneath the counter.

I mean seriously, they want to feel the weight of the wood in their hands (of course they don't realize that different woods of HIGH quality weigh very little).

Other customers want different options, and they typically feel that different branding on the moulding reflects quality. Hence, bringing it back. If your customers feel like there is a scale of quality between vendors, how do you sell something that they perceive to be less quality at the same price as something they consider to be high quality? Hopefully I phrased that a bit better.

Mind you, I do NOT believe that LJ is the Walmart of the industry, and I think that the Belmont line is acceptable (if not a bit overpriced).
 
I decided to price the Belmont just a few dollars less per foot than the corresponding profiles in the Tabacchino line, so that I would be able to give the consumer a price alternative. Given UPS charges lately, my margins might actually be better for the Belmont. But it just went up on the wall a couple of days ago, and I haven't had any sales yet.
 
AC you must have THE best educated customers in the country! We have a pretty discerning clientele, and we get less than a dozen a year ASKING for a particular brand (and it's usually LJ they ask for)
All our people simply are looking for WOW design - who made it is secondary...

AS for your question - why price it any different? If you're giving up margin by pricing it lower than LJ is that really necessary? I actually am showing it right next to, almost as an extension of, the Tabaccacino line. YES, they're from different vendors, but the look is very complimentary..

Tony
 
AWG said:
AC you must have THE best educated customers in the country! We have a pretty discerning clientele, and we get less than a dozen a year ASKING for a particular brand (and it's usually LJ they ask for)
All our people simply are looking for WOW design - who made it is secondary...

AS for your question - why price it any different? If you're giving up margin by pricing it lower than LJ is that really necessary? I actually am showing it right next to, almost as an extension of, the Tabaccacino line. YES, they're from different vendors, but the look is very complimentary..

Tony
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There sure seems to be hostility in the air. I see your point. But I tend to disagree on a general lack of import on the make of a moulding. Obviously if we pit someone like, say, Decor against LJ, the quality is apparent. In my humble opinion, I think both LJ AND Roma are great vendors with great products. I will say, however, that the Roma moulding I carry is on a more pricey retail scale than LJ. When you have customers that want to browse both lines, they will assume that Roma is of a "higher caliber" simply because it costs more (at least in my shop).

So, if I have a customer that likes the Tabacchino line but doesn't want to pay quite as much as that moulding runs, I want to have a less expensive option. I literally had a customer ask me if I had the "Larson-Juhl equivalent of this moulding." I, of course, told them that the price was virtually the same, and we ended up going with something completely different due to that.

I'm not trying to be combative or snobbish here. I'm just trying to get a few opinions on how other people have dealt with these pricing vs. quality issues. I accept your fair statement that most of your clients are looking for great design and that the components are secondary. I, too, have those clients as well and prefer them to the others. A lot of people feel like they have to do my job for me before they even walk in the door. :smileyshot22:
 
I have just the opposite problem. I have people coming in asking for LJ because they have seen it in a magazine and think it is beautiful. Since LJ advertises in the home decor magazines they are the only ones I have ever been asked for by name. I think this is a good thing. In my opinion "discerning" customers ask for LJ.
 
I agree with Emibub -- we need more branding in this industry. I want LJ and Roma and various other lines that we carry to have the same cache with consumers as Prada, Louis Vuitton, and Gucci. When we reach that point, we can charge as much as we like, and get very little resistance.
 
No hostility intended - just don't see the point in worrying about pricing - apply standard markups, offer both, create great design and go from there....

Belmont looks well made, should sell well, and I'd wager they're made in the same factory as the Roma. And some of the profiles will be as PITA to join as Tabaccacino, too:icon45:. If I have an LJ axe to grind right now it's their Gramercy line ...it seems pretty chippy and fragile. Too bad it sells so well :vomit:

That being said, as Kathy and Paul said, about the only molding we ever have people ask for is LJ. Not that we care - we make good money on both...

Tony
 
AWG said:
I actually am showing it right next to, almost as an extension of, the Tabaccacino line. YES, they're from different vendors, but the look is very complimentary..Tony
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I am too. I like the fact that I have more profiles to choose from. I don't have all the Roma profiles (due to size and per ft. cost) and with LJ and Studio adding their lines, it gives me more to choose from (and therefore gives my customers more options).

I'm happy they came out with them.
 
Saturated

I could be wrong (happened once back in '84) but I think this is the most knocked- off line in recent framing history.

So far we've got Roma, Designer, Studio, LJ, Jayeness (local co.), Garrett, and Max on the bandwagon and I think J. Orr has a version also.

Surprisingly, I like the look of the Belmont the least.
 
Tabacchino still looks better to me. I don't give a hoot about the prices, the imitations look like fake wood.
 
Doug Gemmell said:
I could be wrong (happened once back in '84) but I think this is the most knocked- off line in recent framing history.

So far we've got Roma, Designer, Studio, LJ, Jayeness (local co.), Garrett, and Max on the bandwagon and I think J. Orr has a version also.

Surprisingly, I like the look of the Belmont the least.
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Yep
 
I really need to get our rep to update our catalogue. I have no idea what you all are talking about. I am really not in the loop as much as I'd like.

I was told if we let him know what pages we are missing he'd replace them but not a whole new catalogue. Are you kidding me? How would I know what's missing if it's not there?
 
Sold a Belmont today, and almost sold another one, but then found a much more expensive Roma instead...and not Tabacchino! cha chinnnnnnnnngggggggggggggg!
 
Roma vs LJ vs Studio

I've always loved the Roma line, from day one that I bought into my frame shop. the previous owner had a whole wall with the stuffy LJ over priced hugh lines. some of that is still there and no one goes near it because of the size and the cost per foot. If I could get back to the days of LaMarche and their cool lines I would, but those days are over, sigh. Now I have in the most prominent area where I drive my customers to and they go naturally to, is the Roma line, and it's pesty knockoffs. the Roma line is very pricy but most of my customer don't seem to mind, they are there for quality and design.
the previous owner had all the black moulding where I have the Roma line now and I moved the black to the area where it's least desirable, although I sell a lot more black than any other color or style. Just for those who want a simple black frame, etc. Roma will always be my favorite, till something better comes along. As far as pricing goes - i just mark up my lines- all of them 6 or 7 times regardless of the cost. If it costs more then its 6 or 7 time the cost. But I can tell the customer that Roma is in the high end vs LJ or others excpt Arquadi and the closed corner stuff. As far as Studio goes they seem to be in the mid range not in the Roma catagory at all. My suppliers have instigated a new policy of charging a service fee for orders of $100 or less on top of the surcharge for fuel and delivery. Thus the local place that I can pick up my mats and small order stuff is making out like a bandit- since I don't do as much business with them. I've left messages with the local sales rep to contact me so we can strike up a better pricing if I start using them more now for mats and glass and other supplies including blades and etc, the whole idea is to buy the stuff and pick it my self on my way to work. Thus if my sales dip from LJ and Framers Inventory I can expect higher prices from them. What a mess huh? Here's to dealing with reps. My 2 bits.
 
HTML: 
My suppliers have instigated a new policy of charging a service fee for orders of $100 or less on top of the surcharge for fuel and delivery. Thus the local place that I can pick up my mats and small order stuff is making out like a bandit- since I don't do as much business with them. I've left messages with the local sales rep to contact me so we can strike up a better pricing if I start using them more now for mats and glass and other supplies including blades and etc, the whole idea is to buy the stuff and pick it my self on my way to work. Thus if my sales dip from LJ and Framers Inventory I can expect higher prices from them. What a mess huh? Here's to dealing with reps. My 2 bits.  
1 Day Ago 12:19 AM 
Why should they give you better pricing if you can't show a bit of loyalty to them first. I would think you have a much better chance of getting better prices if you earned it.
 
LJ the knock-off artist

I never thought I would see the day that LJ was reduced to copying other vendors mouldings. The last two releases from them show the lack of creative design left in their company as they have copied Roma looks.
Last year in Atlanta, six vendors all came out with the same distressed wood product at the same time. They didn't even know that the factory had sold it to all of them. Industry is reduced to one Chief and the rest are copy cats. I don't think of LJ as the Walmart, more like Target
 
TownL7 said:
I never thought I would see the day that LJ was reduced to copying other vendors mouldings.
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Very little in their line is truly original. Some have a little change here or there but most have been done before. Many of the designs are centuries old.

I bet that if Baer had nothing better to do he could show you examples of most of their designs from before they even existed.
 
jframe said:
Charging a fee for orders less than $100 is.
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I have 2 delivery suppliers. One charges a fee for $35 or less. The other does not charge at all. Both are here once a week. I understand the need to control costs but I was hit with a $17 fee for coming up $4 short. NOBODY called to remind me of this after I placed an order. I could have gotten an additional 10 matboards for the total that I paid had someone notified me.

In 3-4 weeks they will call and ask why I have not ordered from them and I will explain this.

Sorry guys it's money for all of us. I understand the cost of packing and shipping but the truck drives by my store anyway. Next few weeks it will do just that, drive by my store with no stop.

How's that for an economics lesson.

Suppliers-MAKE THE CALL
 
This is where signage really helps! I have a Roma wall and it gets a lot of attention.

I call LJ the Ralph Lauren of framing and Roma is the Tommy Hilfiger of framing.Or I will say that LJ is the BMW of framing and Roma is the Mercedes of framing.


It just gives the customer a comparison.But I don't change the pricing, it is what it is! I let the customer be the judge of what they are willing to pay.

As far as LJ being as creative, they are the first ones to come out with the veneered finished mouldings.
I still sell that first line on a regular basis!

I love both companies equally.
 
ACFramer said:
By the by, I heard tell that the designer of the Tabacchino line is now working with Studio and designed their version of this popular moulding.

Opinions?
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Sorry I'm late to the party on this thread but, to clarify, the guy who designed the Tabachinno line is still with Roma. The guy who ended up at Studio knocked off the designs with some subtle changes and a couple of different profiles. The main difference I see with the knock-offs is the quality of the veneer. Ours (Roma) are more textural and most of the others are smoother and are, in my opinion, less authentic/tactile. I do like some of the shapes available in some of the knock-offs and Larson, while late to the party, offers a pretty nice scoop with some rabbet depth. Yes, this is definitely the most copied line in our industry's history. If there is a major supplier who hasn't copied it in some way, please let me know. This is perhaps the most popular line we've ever introduced, and Tony deserves a lot of credit for bringing it to the marketplace. It's obviously been good for the entire industry.
 
I just looked up Belmont to see what all the fuss was about. I think I must have turned this sample set down because I prefer the Roma. Moreover, I try not to carry too many look-alikes because I would prefer to use my wall space to show a larger variety of finishes. I did add the 1/2" and 1.5" Studio olive woods because they filled a need for a more structurally sound profile, especially on the 1/2" versions. I like the depth in the Studio.

We had quite a run on olive wood for a while, and now we seem to be back to more customers wanting the natural woods, like LJ Cranbrook, and the more pricey hardwood companies' offerings.

I use the same mark-up for all the olive wood versions. I don't favor any company in price mark-up, and only hand price some of our in-stock and in-stock value line mouldings. I do favor companies based upon our discount level, their price and shipping policies, and their commitment to customer service.

Whether it's Roma, LJ, or another company, I try to add a bit of romance to the moulding when I can. Made in Italy, made in the Senelar factory in France, etc. It would be great if the manufacturers gave us a bit more history on some of their lines--if there is history to be had.

I agree with Paul, that it would be great if there were more brand name attention and advertising to the public. LJ does some but I'd sure like to see something besides those empty frames!
 
Has anyone had occasion to join the 4-inch wide belmont in an underpinner? I just took an order for a 55x43 canvas with that frame. After taking the order, I slipped the corner sample into my underpinner and tried clamping it. The clamp pushed the sample up at the back. I may have to get this one joined for me!
 
Hey hey Paul. Good sale.

Sent you a PM
 
PaulSF said:
Has anyone had occasion to join the 4-inch wide belmont in an underpinner? I just took an order for a 55x43 canvas with that frame. After taking the order, I slipped the corner sample into my underpinner and tried clamping it. The clamp pushed the sample up at the back. I may have to get this one joined for me!
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LJ's join program - $10
 
Yup Pat, that will be the way to go. They designed it, let them sort it out!

In the short term, my bacon has been saved. The customer came back in with her husband yesterday, and changed the frame to a slightly more expensive but not as wide Tabacchino, that will fit into their space better. And much easier to join!
 
Kirstie said:
It would be great if the manufacturers gave us a bit more history on some of their lines--if there is history to be had.
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Kirstie,

I couldn't agree more. This stuff should be in the catalogue—a little manufacturing "romance" always helps me to close sales.
 
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