larson-juhl and joannes fabrics

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picture perfect

Grumbler in Training
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Has anyone else heard anything about Larson-Juhl buying cmc machines, setting them up in their warehouses and training Joannes employees? This really disturbes me because of the way LJ is doing this. I have been a "partner" with them for over 18 years and never heard of doing this for a single company. It almost sounds like LJ wants to go into the wholesale business. I have heard this from several individuals, including an Eclipse rep and a LJ empolyee. Larson-juhl will not give me a straight answer and so far are avoiding me on this subject. My thoughts are, if they are doing this in a secretive way, WHY? If they are trying to hurt the small businessmen of our industry, then I think we should know about it and stop supporting Larson-Juhl. Please, give me your input.
 
If you want, L-J will also train you or your employees and cut mats for you. After 18 years, it seems unlikely that you'd be interested in either service, but several Grumblers got at least some of their training from the L-J schools.

This is a topic that will just not go away, but it would be nice if the recycle time would be at least a few months, instead of days.
 
Hi SJS-I'll assume that you don't visit the grumble, so I won't take your post seriously.

But, as Maryann suggests this has been beat to death. So, for the sake of fairness and honesty, why don't you read the posts linked and give us your impression of what LJ's plans are.

You took the time to cast dispersions, now perhaps you could do the same once armed with some facts.

I would love to see some attribution to the statements proffered by LJ employees and the Eclipse rep.

Both these operations are first rate in both ethics as well as products.

In the spirit of fairness, would you do a slight amount of reearch and share your impressions as readily as you did with your accusations.

When do we become responsible for the things that come out of our mouths?
 
If they are trying to hurt the small businessmen of our industry
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I don't feel that LJ is intensionally trying to hurt us. I do feel that their joining JoAnn's will hurt us. The big boxes have come in and taken a large share of our market that we will never get back. I think LJ is looking out for LJ as they should. I don't like what they have done, but I don't feel they did anything unethical either.
 
SjS, Welcome to The Grumble, and thanks for posting.

Every large company has to grow, they really have no choice. They have many employees, all working to climb the ladder and be noticed. They want their departments to grow, they want to make greater earnings for their company. The people running the company have stockholders to wow. It's just like a machine, once it's fired up, it has to go.

Years ago the office supply industry was saturated with mom & pop businesses, much like our industry is now.

They where not displaced by the Big Boxes as it would seem. They where displaced by their local distributors going after every large account they could find. They where put out of business by their own suppliers selling direct, at wholesale, to their own accounts. In the end, the Big Boxes came in and finished off what was left of them.

So far, at least not on a large scale, that has not happened to us.

You have to expect large distributors like Larson to grow in some fashion or another. I would rather have them holding hands with a large retailer than selling directly to my main large accounts. No matter what we do, the day will come when that starts happening on a large scale.

Companies have to grow, when that happens, other companies will get pushed aside, it's just the way it is. The only way, you, as a small independent can compete, is the same way we have always competed against the Big Boxes and others, put out a better product with better service.

Forget price, you can not compete in that arena. Only thing you can do is just flat out, be a better framer.

You can also choose who you buy from, that may make you feel good in the short term, but I would be willing to bet, in the near future, you will be hard pressed, to find a supplier who is not dabbling on your turf in some manner or another.

John
 
Bob: a little cranky today? Essentially, if you go back and read the posts again, what sjs says is fact. The rest is opinion which I think we are all entitled to.
 
Heck, John, Not cranky at all. However, I am a little tired of the same old tired mindless bashing.

What's wrong with asking someone to say WHO told them? What's wrong with asking someone to read all the history and then see if they agree with "what someone told them"?

Yor position, as a competitor, is well documented. Hardly an objective point of view, but that is just my opinion (which as you correctly stated, is something I am entitled to).

What's wrong with asking someone to back up what they "heard" with some facts? Everyone is entitled to Grumble, they just ought to back it up.

Maybe it's just the skeptic in me, but I guess I am a little leery of some of the one post hit and run guys.

I think (my opinion, again) is that we ought to know where this stuff is coming from. With you, while I may disagree, I respect your point of view. I'm sure if I owned a regional distributorship and had a major player like LJ clobbering me daily, I would probably look for anything I could to use against them. Hey, it's one way of competiting.

I have talked to many Larson people from the top on down (and I mean the very top) and not once did anyone dodge the question. There is no "vast right wing conspiracy" going on here. Everyone has been more than candid in their position that this was simply another revenue stream; much the same as chop and join service. And just as soon as this program is fully developed, it will be offered to the general trade.

And those are the facts as told to me by the President, the VP-Marketing, the Tempe facility GM and my local LJ rep. See, now there is some legitimacy to what I post

My opinion is that SJS is repeating a harmful rumor designed to cast dispersions on LJ. We have seen it before and I think it ought to stop, unless there is proof to the stated intentions of company officers.

Cranky? Not really.
 
I've refrained from participating in any of these "LJ/BB" discussions because I mostly find them boring or too comical to respond to. I think the "one post hit and run guys" ought to back up what they say or identify themselves better so maybe we can appreciate their point of view and possibly help them with their lack of understanding.

Most of the posters regarding these topics seem to have little or no understanding of a business marketplace. Hey, if i could import hand leafed frames from Italy and sell them for less than LJ sells me painted ones, I would! For that matter, every business at some point must choose between horizontal diversification or vertical integration, or stagnate.
 
God, don't you just love corporate buzz words?

This is The Grumble guys, every opinion is valid, no matter what we may think of it.

John
 
So, what exactly are the facts folks?
 
My Larson rep has told me they are not selling to companies at prices that are better than what we (one of their partners) get. According to my rep, the partner prices are the best you can get. So what if they are training Joanne's employees? They also train employees in other shops around the country. They advertise their framing school in every framing trade magazine. I don't buy into this whole thread at all. It's kind of disheartning that they always get a bad rap for little things that aren't necessarily true. I would say talk to your rep again. See what he/she has to say. I'm personally not going to let this rumor get into the way of the great service they provide.
 
Bob: You are right in that LJ is a major competitor and that we are in a constant battle.

In your area of the country it appears that everyone is willing to step up to the plate and talk about the relationship. That's great! In the upper mid-west where Juhl-Pacific started it's been a little more evasive. I don't think it's a disservice but I know if I struck a major nationwide deal with a large chain it would probably be in a press release somewhere. That way everyone gets the same answers at the same time and speculation on deals like this wouldn't spur the conversations that have been taking place here on the G.

As far as training employees everyone is right! LJ has great schools. They can train anyone they want. The more educated framers are the healthier the industry.

I know two facts:

1) Larson purchased Eclipse Pro's and installed them in each DC for the purpose of cutting mats for JoAnne's ect around the country.
2) Larson also now joins all the frames for JoAnne's Ect.

There has been (framer) speculation that Larson will eventually offer mat cutting services to all their customers. That would be great.

That their upper management talks about this alliance as just another revenue stream is correct and the deal is savy on their part.

I do know that when we talked to JoAnne's they essentially wanted to do all this work themselves, have us assist them in setting up their operation (for free) with NO obligation to ever buy equipment, moulding or commodities from us.

Whomever cut the deal at Larson obviously was more savy than me.

sjs is a newby and as far as identifing who they are has been debated even more than this subject.

However, now that they have been pointed to the links, hopefully they will read them and jump back on this post and "reveal" their source of information, which at this point I think is irrelevant because they essentially got it right!
 
There is something which I found out yesterday from my rep, and I don't know how I feel about it. He showed me some very impressive ads LJ is running in one of the decorating magazines. I looked for a web-site listed on the ad and found one. I asked that if the consumer went on to the web-site, would they be directed to the local shops that carry their product. I was told no, that was one one of the benefits of being a partner, that only partners are listed. Now I sell a fair amount of LJ product, but not enough to become a partner. I don't want to limit myself to pushing LJ product in order to become a partner.

Do you think it fair that LJ limits web-site listings to partners only? I don't think they have any partners in my immediate area, so isn't the fact they are not listing dealers in my area more harmful to them? I don't know, I can't help but feel a little put off by this revelation.
 
Pamela,

Have you asked your LJ rep what you would need to do to become a partner? Have you presented the argument that there are no listed framers in your area and you feel that you should be listed? Haven't you just recently sold your shop?
 
Bob is right, anybody can become a partner. And, it doesn't include selling your soul or entering into an unholy alliance with the devil.

It does, however, require a committment (certainly not an onerus arrangement). Just like the committment you are asking of them.

They commit to an expensive campaign, very professionally done, that is favorable to our industry. Good for us.

They direct consumers to those shops that are their best customers-good for them. I wouldn't expect less and I wouldn't do less.

I don't carry Roma (used to). There is no way I woud expect a referral from them when the guy down the street samples and sells a ton of their product.

I'm sorry Pam, but this might be the biggest "no-brainer" in the history of man.

We often want to be independent, don't want to be beholding to anyone. Well, the cows just came home.

John's two facts are correct, but not complete.

They do have CMC's and are cutting mats for a client. My impression is that it will not be exclusive.

They do chop and joins for this client. For several years, they did every single chop and join for a small regional chain in Az.They, as almost every other moulding reseller, does the same.

Jana might be correct; it might be aspersions. But, it sure looked like this original post was "dis"-ing someone.

I'm going with intent
 
John,

I have stayed out of this fracas so far but I do need to clarify some things in my own mind.

You mentioned that "I do know that when we talked to JoAnne's they essentially wanted to do all this work themselves, have us assist them in setting up their operation (for free) with NO obligation to ever buy equipment, moulding or commodities from us.".

I can't help but feel an attitude of frustration on your part in that you didn't close the deal with JoAnn's and LJ did. Is it possible that JoAnn's had the same reply to LJ when initially approached and LJ's people came up with a suitable solution that looked like a better proposition than yours did to the management of JoAnn's?? Many times there can only be one "winner" and it depends on who is the most imaginative thinker and fastest on their feet as to whom the final decision will favor.

Regarding the cutting of mats by LJ for the JoAnn's chain, are they charging the same price that they would charge to anyone else for this service? (I refer to some kind of per window standard for use of a person's CMC to cut mats for an outside business.) Nobody is mentioning anything about the costs involved in these complaints. I feel that, if they are charging a competitive price for these services, they should be free to do so. I would be very upset if somebody from the local city council (or anyone else), for example, came into my shop and said that because I am a "custom framer", I can't cut mats for a person that wants to try to build a frame for himself or join that frame for him if he doesn't have the tools/knowledge to do it himself. And I would also be upset if they challenged my choice to do or not to do this kind of work for an individual. That is always my choice. If I don't want to be involved in cutting people's mats that don't do framing with me, that is my choice to make.

Regarding joining of the frames for JoAnn's, is LJ doing this for the normal listed "chop and join" costs that are listed in their price sheet? If so, where is the problem, other than JoAnn's is doing this business with LJ instead of TC Moulding?

I am not taking sides on this issue, only trying to clarify some of the partial information that has come up on this and other threads concerning how much business someone is "taking away" from the independant framer. Personally, I have not had a single referral from the JoAnn's in FWB nor have I been approached by them to do any framing for displays in their store. They are aware of my presence and know that some of their customers come into my shop to have their framing done. I question how large of a chunk of everyday framing is being "stolen" by JoAnn's from any of the local frameshops across the country? If the pricing that LJ sets for JoAnn's is competitive, then it is up to the frameshop to market themselves to those who may not know that the service may be more personal and the mistakes made can be rectified without shipping their pieces back to the origin of manufacture (in this case, the LJ warehouse where the work was performed) for changes or repair to the mats and frames.

Just some random thoughts on this matter.

Framerguy
 
FramerGuy: At this time (3 years later) we don't feel we lost anything because we weren't promised anything other than a trip to Ohio, (which we pay for) and a week of providing free consulting. No promises on anything else so nothing lost.

Something obviously changed from JoAnne's end because they decided to subcontract instead of doing this work themselves.

I do know that one reason we were approached was because our two distribution centers were centrally located to a majority of JoAnne's (there were very few Ect. stores at that time) and it would be convienient (sic) if they did decide to purchase from us. (At that time a store could by from any number of vendors.)

I don't know if anyone will truly ever know what Larson-Juhl is charging for these services. The employees that work for us that used to work at JoAnne's left before this arrangement was in place.

Bob has asked me for some hard figures regarding the number of frames that we know from one of our employees that JoAnne's would do on a week when on ad. In one location (and at least regionally) they were averaging over 400 frames per week per store. My employee did not walk out of his frame manager postion with printouts because he prefers to stay out of jail, but interviews with other former JoAnne's employees seem to back this up.

Now, that being said, I have to believe that with 250+ stores, they are probably buying at a better price than the top partner program. How much this affects the custom framer is debatable and probably not measurable unless you are within 5-8 miles of a JoAnne's and have measured your sales and per month piece count since they opened and how that may have affected your sales.
 
I agree that the relationship between L-J and JoAnne Stores is strictly legitimate. I see it as a large deal, but not a 'big deal'.

Here are a few observations that make me wonder at the wisdom of the two parties:

1. BigBox discounters generally are looking for ways to dig out of their discounting strategy. It was very effective in taking a third (or so) of the entire custom framing market, but savvy consumers now ignore most offers, knowing that the coveted "50% off your entire custom framing order" coupon will come again. That 'benchmark' discount will be a growing problem. The solution might be to artificially raise base prices and offer it more often, but that just digs the hole deeper. Sooner or later prices will rise, or something else will give. Contracting out the basic framebuilding tasks greatly limits their production control. This deal could become a sort of albatross, especially if it doesn't work as planned.

2. JoAnne Stores surely proved on paper that the L-J deal is more profitable than operating their own shops. I think they may be wrong about that, but perhaps it's management's path of least resistance. I predict that JoAnne Stores will begin 'cherrypicking' the L-J deal to make it more profitable. That would squeeze L-J's profitability, which may already be pinched. Will the deal expire before it becomes unbearable for one or both parties?

3. L-J has spent years building their good reputation for quality and service. Excellence has been the keystone of their very successful growth strategy. Consumer awareness of the L-J brand has also been a worthy achievement. These facts run counter to establishing a national discuonter among their largest customers, I think. I believe associating the Larson Juhl name so closely with JoAnne Stores may thwart growth in other directions.
 
Sorry to all but I am new to the Grumble.

We received a letter in the mail concerning this issue.
With no return address.
I found this website trying to find out what it meant. I guess the letter did one thing. It stroked my curiosity to see the issue. But to the persons who sent it - please have the cohanies to put your name.
Does anyone know what I am talking about?
 
3. L-J has spent years building their good reputation for quality and service. Excellence has been the keystone of their very successful growth strategy. Consumer awareness of the L-J brand has also been a worthy achievement. These facts run counter to establishing a national discuonter among their largest customers, I think. I believe associating the Larson Juhl name so closely with JoAnne Stores may thwart growth in other directions.
Click to expand...
Aren't the Craig Ponzio lines excluded from Joann's lineup? I understand just the basic everyday stuff is on display. I got the feeling that they were distancing themselves from the BB by offering them only what they could easily find elsewhere and expressly not the signature lines tied to the consumer ads.
 
Spree,
Welcome to TG.

I received a letter much the same as what you refer to, and considering the timing, it probably is the same. Honestly, I chose to ignore it since there was no return address, no letterhead, no signature, no nothing!

I have a rudimentary philosphy; unethical practices will eventually bite you in the gluteus maximus!...sometimes fatally. Thus, ANY person, business or institue practicing in unethical scenerios, whether it's conflict of interest, embezzlement, stealing.......whatever......it will come back to haunt them! And it will take care of itself. My job is to keep MY nose clean!! It's not my practice to get swept into rumors and drawn into embellishing unknown bits of information. "Tincure of time" takes care of anything that NEEDS to be taken care of; until that moment, everyone has my full support and are treated with the same respect that I like to be treated!

I don't mean to rant.....but it's Friday! :rolleyes:
 
Spree:
Welcome to the Grumble. This letter was addressed at the Industry Breakfast at the WCAF as a cowardly attempt tat spreading a supposed "conspiracy". My plan of action is to ignore it.
Regards,
Julia
 
I don't know or care what the letter said but I'm a firm believer that there is no such thing as a "total lie".
 
They were mailed FROM Vegas with a postmark of the 21st.
 
I agree with this topic being beaten to death, most rummor start some where and as soon as everyone realize LJ will never come straight with their involvments with the big box store,the sooner we will not have to have this topic come up over and over again. LJ looks out for LJ and no one else and if you don't like this then STOP DEALING with them, they are not trying to make our industry better they are just trying to improve their bottom line any way they see fit to do so.
 
Yeah, we all have a choice here. Deal with them or not. I didn't think I cared about them being so closely aligned with Joann's but when I saw their whole catalogue displayed on the wall it did make me a little queasy. Not because they are doing anything wrong but because I don't want my wall to be the same as a BB. That is my choice, there are infinite choices out there. So, I don't get the resentment. If it bugs you, move on.

I continue to like LJ's product and service, they are hard to beat. In my wildest dream I would never use any one company as my sole supplier, it is important to have a good mix to meet all my customers needs. LJ certainly fills part of that need.

When it is proven that LJ is indeed on the "grassy knoll" I will reconsider. I still don't get why so many people resent them and are always trying to bring them down. Just don't use them.
 
Originally posted by Jay H:
...I'm a firm believer that there is no such thing as a "total lie".
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Is a "total lie" like a "total truth"?

A lie doesn't have to be "total" to cause real harm where none is due.

Inuendo, exaggeration, false reasoning, and half-truths add up to allegations that simply are not true.

If it isn't light, it's dark. If it isn't dry, it's wet. If it isn't smooth, it's rough. If it isn't true, it's a lie.
 
***DISCLAIMER***I have heard a bit about this thing and I am in no way supportive of this garbage.
 
Jim I agree that if something isn't totaly true it can and probaly is a LIE.It maynot be completely false but then those are the kind of statements that do more harm. If it were toatly false hardly anyone would belive them. ( hardly ,there are some who want to belive anything bad and will regaurdless)

It is my experience that the most harmfull LIES are those that have some simblenst of the truth. That causes those who fear the party in question or who dislike them to run amuck with speculation based on what little they can not contradict.And the rumor grows from there,and grows ,and grows.

That is why we should only belive what can be totaly PROVEN and only after we see the proof.
There are those who will belive a partial truth long after the lie has been shown ,simply because the lie (for some unknown reason) spreads faster than it's contradiction.
Buddy
PS Sammy's statement ,"they are not trying to make our industry better they are just trying to improve their bottom line any way they see fit to do so. "makes me wonder .If LJ does their business in this INDUSTRY ,how do they improve their BOTTOM line while the industry faulters.Can they do business with themselvs while everyone else fails?
 
Originally posted by Mike-L@GTP:
They were mailed FROM Vegas with a postmark of the 21st.
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remember the November discussions/feuds? FactFramer sent it!!

shrug.gif
(could've been that person, s/he hailed from Vegas and was a rabble rouser.)
 
Originally posted by wcox:
Who has actually seen "the Letter"
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It doesn't have to exist, isn't this the monthly LJ Rumor?
I thought that the LJ-Neilsen Bainbridge thread was the rumor du jour.

Personally I don't doubt that some Grumblers have recieved the "letter" but I still give this rumor as much credence as the previous rumors.

Ahh rumors, without them where would we be? Oh yeah, better off as an industry!
 
So, "Spree" pops in for one post, stirs the pot and leaves.... hmmm... His/her profile says they are not a framer, but in "sales". Why would they get a letter about framing?

Perhaps they feared that no one was going to bring it up.

Sorta reminds me of the arsonist returning to watch the fire.

Or as my Mother would have said, "the first hen that cackled was the first hen that laid!"

Betty
 
Yes Buddy LJ can do business without the help of you and me once they have, partner up with large big box store and open up retail stores of their own, do you think they worry about you, all they worry about is how can they make this transion without herting themselves. Maybe this is why no one can get a straight answer from them, they hope that people don't take rummors to heart.
 
A little history. (And you can draw your own conclusions if you think this applies).

Carnegie had steel mills. They were 200-900 miles from the coal, tin, iron mines; his suppliers. The raw goods traveled to him by trains.

Carnegie had a hard time quoting his price for finished steel, because he never knew when ore might have a cost increase or worse, the miners would strike. So he bought the mines. He couldn't use all of the ore his mines produced, so he sold it to others at the going rate.

One year, the railroad workers went on strike. Pretty soon the rail owners who owned the rails and the trains that weren't running .... sold for pennies on the dollar . . . to . . . you guessed it.

Carnegie, locked out the rail workers and hired scab at half the wage. When the miners did the same, he did the same .. . lowering his COG even farther. Still selling ore at the going rate, and hauling goods and people at the going rat, he reaped even more and higher profits.

With those profits he built Carnegie hall, and 800 public libraries. He indowed millions of grants that still provide scholarships for many studies and students today.

Bill Gates makes almost as much money as Melinda Gates & the B&M Gates Foundation are trying to give away and make a healthy impact on this world.... then there are all of those people who view Microsoft as the evil empire....

I used to be assimilated to the BORG (Big ORange Giant = Home Depot). Everyone was screaming how they would put the mom & pop hardware out of business . . . my neighborhood hardware man, Mike, loves the BORG. Run to HD for a tool = 2 hours. Run to Beaumont Hardware, almost same price, you rode your bicycle, got a latte on the way, spoke with neighbors, invested money in the neighborhood business, and were back home in under 30 minutes. If you were in a hurry, 10 minutes without the latte.

When I hear that Warren Buffet is going around and buying up mom & pop framers and closing the doors so people have to go to Joannes & Michaels.... I'll think about retirement.
 
I don't believe rumors like this until there is a statement from one or both parties involved.
LJ has made a tremendous impact on everybodies bottom lines regardless of whether or not you sell their lines. When I see the advertising in national magazines I can barely contain myself from pumping the fist and screaming "right on".
They bring our craft to the consumers kitchen table. 9 times out of ten that consumer will go to the neighborhood framer for framing and place an order based on positive experiences. The client going to BB's is driven by price foremost and less on building a relationship with their framer. I know which client I want walking thru my doors.
If LJ is cutting deals with Joannes so what? Get mad when locals are being cut out, driven out, or bought out. Don't be mad at them for acting like a corporation is supposed to act, they too have many mouths to feed.

I did hear that Warren Buffet secret-shopped Eggers store and was so po'ed that he's hellbent on putting every small operator in Wisc. out of business.
 
Betty,

The letter is for real......but that doesn't matter. If it was done as a prank, or as a serious effort to call concern.....that doesn't matter, either.

As Baer and Puttyboy have adequately stated in this thread...

1) This is a business decision

2) It really has no more effect on small independent retailer framers than the other changing dynamics of our industry.

At least twice during the WCAF show, concerned framers approached me with the questions, "So what about Michaels?" and "What do think about JoAnnes?". To both of these very open questions, my real reply is to

<center>Get Over It - And Move On!</center>

I'd like to share some parts of an article written by Ann E Groer from The Washington Post. I received this copy from a Regional Distributor and do not know the date of the article, but it says alot...
Debra Dawson went to a furniture store to buy art.

For nearly an hour on a recent afternoon, she traversed Bassett Furniture Direct in Rockwell, Md., emerging with two large abstract prints - gilt-framed and double-matted, under glass - for her home........

.......Dawson mirrors a growing trend of consumers who buy art - known in the industry as "wall decor" - that is made and marketed to coordinate with prevailing trends in home furnishings.....

...."People are absolutely buying more art. In the last two or three years, our art sales have doubled," said Becky Weber, Crate & Barrel's accessories buyer, who declined to give specific sales figures....

....Such accessibility and affordability reassures tentative customers, said Laura Daily, merchandising vice president for the Atlanta-based Ballard Designs catalog, which showcases smartly framed or mounted images in tastefully appointed rooms.

"Art galleries kind of make you feel like you don't know anything. People feel intimidated. When you show people that art is not intimidating, they will respond. Our catalog says, 'Hey, I can help you solve something in your life', Daily said.....

....Two major technological breakthroughs have fueled the art explosion and driven down prices in the past decade, according to industry experts....

Sophisticated ink-jet printers have replaced the labor intensive silk screening process, to create.....They are still prints, though marketers prefer the term giclee.....

....another advance that has helped cut costs is the computerized mat cutter, which creates....
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The industry has been changing for awhile now, and the traditional frameshop/gallery has got to respond to meet these changes. This may involve diversification, specialization and some savy & agressive marketing.

Cutting off vendors and sources is not the answer.

John
 
John, I never questioned the validity of the letter. I know from other friends who saw it that it is indeed real, and created by a very malicious person.

What I was getting at was perhaps "Spree" was actually responsible for the letter, or more likely, knew who was; and when it wasn't getting any "airplay" on the grumble, decided to mention it to get a rise out of everyone.

I don't know where I indicated that I thought it was a prank, but anyway...

As for intimidating galleries, I've written and talked for years about the "elitest" attitude of some framers. A customer will not go where they are not comfortable (neither we nor they!) So, unless we are planning on "only selling to those to whom we've only sold before" we'd better start making a whole new group of customers "comfortable" with our stores.

And it's not just us - in our town there are several Maytag dealers, and now there is a Magtag store. I suppose they feel just like we would feel if there were a L/J store, a Roma store, or an Omega store. But I will agree with you - it's time to get over it and move on!

Betty
 
Spree also came into the grumble chat right after the post and mentioned the same letter.
 
Question: Does Berkshire Hathaway own stock in Jo~Ann's?
The represenitive from Jo~Ann's didn't confirm or deny this.

I don't feel that they have done anything dishonest or unethical, but I still have the choice whether to carry thier lines. Right now it's looking like LJ will be mostly gone in the next week or so.
 
I guess I am all confused by what is the real question here??

Does Larson sell to Michael's? We all know they do...my local rep and the district manager has confirmed this.

Does Larson sell to AND do a lot of the work for JoAnn's? Again most of know they do...once more my local rep confirmed this, She even said this is why the Detroit distribution center added 4 CMC to handle all of the work.

Does Larson sell to both of these companies cheaper than they sell to the Preferred Partners? OF CORSE. Show me a company that doesn't give a company buying thousands of feet of moulding per week vs a lot of us buying a hundred of feet a price brake. That's how and why the BB work, better wholesale prices=discounts at retail level & and the profit they are looking for.

How is this happening with out us reading about it? $$$ .....you don't give bad PR to your major advertiser.

Is Larson the "Patron Saint" of small framers? Nope. Their a big business. The 10 to 40 thousand dollars each, that a lot of us spend with them really doesn't matter in the long run to them. You close, another will open in your place. All of the small framers close that thats another story. I am not saying LJ is a bad Co. In fact far from it, GREAT service and great product. I have told many other company's that they are a standard to live up to.

Will Michael's and JoAnn's put some of us out of business? Sorry to say it...Yes! But the same can be said about the other frame shop down the road, or a host of other reasons. Bad location, bad selection and so on.

I think the big thing to me is that framing is changing, and has changed in big ways in the just the 13 years that I have been framing. I'm sure there is a lot of people on here with more years than me that will agree. More competition from BB stores, furniture stores, and department stores. In the last few years I have noticed that my suppliers are riding their reps for more and more for accounts in a time when more and more of us are closing (4 in my town last year alone). In this last year 3 people walked in to my store and had a moulding catalog in their hands with the prices figured out for what they should be paying. Not a fun place to start a write up. Our customers base is getting smaller and smarter, we are NOT a necessity, we are a luxury.

Maybe it's time to stop blaming others. We all know that when we went in to business that we would have competition and that it wouldn't be easy. If we work together as a group we can make some changes. Listen to what other say, and check up on it with your reps and check up on what they say. Tell your suppliers and their reps what you don't like, and maybe how they can fix it. Do business with Co.'s that are there to help you succeed and ask them how you can help them do the same them.
 
Hi Dave-It was nice to visit with you in Vegas last week; I always enjoy our quick discussions(Man,we cover a lot of territory, don't we?)

I know how you feel about the LJ controversy and it won't be me to attempt to change your point of view

But, when we talk about crossover ownership, these are issues that are public record and have to be disclosed in SEC filings. Trust me when I tell you that Warren is so much smarter than to risk that type of violation.

If you feel that, for any reason, a vendor doesn't meet your needs or philosophies, try another. There are just too many other alternatives and every single one, without exception, will willingly take our money.

If Larson or JoAnne's went away tomorrow, would it make that much difference in your level of success?

I suspect the difference in my business would be about the same as in their business if I went away-not much.

PS contact me offline about another canvas source we found at WCAF.
 
An interesting note about where this thread has ventured. I was recently - - at Vegas, reminded of my practices in the late 80s as a rep for Nurre.

Yes I had some huge accounts that I was flogged to go "service". And then I had the other 900 "friends" that I was paid to go share, shmooze, learn, teach, and show the new stuff to. Oh yea, and occationally write an order or six.

I pointed out to my boss, that if six of the 900 go out of business, we will miss them, but not financially. If just one of the accounts that was regularly oweing us 60days @ $145,000 . . . It's gonna leave a mark. And it did.

So let them get in bed with each other. Mind your store, so you can mind your customers/guests/friends/extended family....and they will mind your bottom line.
 
Bob, My feelings are that I cannot compete with Joanns on price selling LJ products. I can compete with them by selling other lines that I have a buying advantage on. These lines will also give my stores something different than the big boxes.
I don't belive in burning bridges and my rep knows that i'm upset with LJ. We will probably keep a couple of lines, but not the level that we currently have.
 
Spree is back!! Our DSL was down so I couldn't get back to check the site.

All I have to say is that, you guys sure like to GRUMBLE!

Whoever sent the letter waisted 2-3 hours of my time.
As for the letter it does exist. Some one asked me to forward them a copy and I don't feel like doing that for everyone that reads this forum.
So below is the contents of the letter that was sent to our office. It was sent from Vegas on the 21st.

_______________________________________
UNETHICAL?
UNFAIR COMPETITION?
DISHONEST?
YOU BE THE JUDGE

The tale of two greedy men: Greedy man No.1, the second richest man in the world who owns the largest distributing business in the framing business is now retailing in another business which he owns called Jo-Ann Fabrics and Crafts.

Hypothetical question: If his firm sells you a moulding for $2.00 per foot, and he buys the moulding for .50 per foot, he can sell his moulding at his retail business at the same price as your cost and make a modest profit, or sell it at your price and make a huge profit. Do you think this is fair? Do you want Jo-ann Fabrics and Crafts as your competitor? Do you think you get the same discounts as Michaels and Arron Bros. gets from this company? Think again.

Greedy man No. 2 owns and operates possibly the largest independant framing business in the United States, and is possibly the most sought after speaker in the industry and writer in moulding magazines. Is it necessary for him to distribute what he calls his "Bella Line" of which is brought in for pennies on the dollar to what your price is. Once again, the "Bella Line" can be retailed to his customers at the price you are buying it for, or it can be raised to your price for a huge profit. Either way you lose.

SUGGESTION:

Check with your distributor and find out if they own a retail outlet.
_________________________________________
End of letter.

As for the remark of creating the letter ( Mr. Newman) , you can strike that from your thoughts.
My buddy is a framer, I was helping him out in the store when the letter arrived.

As far as I care, this subject is dead to me.

Spree
 
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